I have learned more about music since this thread has been up, than I have in the rest of my entire life. First, there are an infinite number of factors that determine what music we like best. Whatever music we like best, is the best music. The "Aristocracy", as always, claims the music they like is best, and when you combine what is said by everybody about all genres of music, "Classical" is the best; can you guess why? Because the aristocracy says it's best, that's why. On the real side, in regard to the music we are about, when we reach a serious consensus, that's when it's time to study all the details carefully; by that, I mean to search for albums created by the artists who created that one; without the star artist on that one. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-DKeYXG5gwkThis is an interesting album, and this is the first time I heard it; but I selected it based on my new found theory; which I bet you guessed by now. Ghosthouse, we will apply my theory to your searches; that's why I'm looking into this ECM thing, a lot of us collected those records; that's where all the unique records (another word for "strange") records in my collection came from. Man can not live by hard bop alone, he must have a few unique records to balance things out when he wants a change. What do you guys think of that album I selected based on my new theory. |
Ghosthouse, Your post in regard to our slight (narrow range of disagreement) in regard to Chick Corea, is "right on".
We began to form our taste in music when we were toddlers, shaking our little boody's to what ever turned us on. From that time till now has been an ongoing process; consequently, we can't be expected to agree 100% of the time, but we came close on Chick Corea.
I think we're going to strike gold with the ECM comparisons.
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Astewart, your very accurate post on "Blue Train" was another confirmation of the greatness of that tune and the musicians who created it.
Enjoy the music.
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Pryso, that was one of Mingus's best. All of his albums were so original that you always thought, "There is no way that he's going to ever top that", but he still managed to come up with something better the next time.
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Notice that article tries to keep the "Liberul Consertive" dichotomy for the "Hunter Fishers".
Obama was neither, he was a thief; but since he was a liberal thief, that meant he was a "bad" thief, and if he was a conservative thief, that would have meant he was a good thief.
If you are a citizen of this country, take your brain out of "phaze lock loop"
Now back to your regular scheduled program
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Acman, if you're out there, could you post 3 of your favorite cuts from "Marseille", without including the title cut?
Like all the best jazz music, you are required to really listen.
In case you're wondering why I don't do this myself, I'm in bed under the weather.
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Rok, this is a musical forum and I thoroughly appreciated your contribution of Valaida Snow., when I mentioned "conspiracy", I was thinking of entertainers other than Ms. Snow who were affected because they didn't follow the script.
Enjoy the music. |
I am fascinated to the point of being obsessed by "drum rhythms". I have traced them from Africa to Brazil and the Caribbean. We can divide the Caribbean into Cuba, Haiti, The Dominican Republic, and all of the smaller islands in the Caribbean. The singular most unique thing about these African rhythms, is the fact that they got lost in the U. S. of A. I don't hear any African rhythms emanating from here, maybe someone else does, but I don't. Of course we can incorporate anything we want to in jazz, but I'm speaking of what was originally in "modern jazz"; that's jazz from the 50's to the present; it was "influenced" by Charley "Bird" Parker, more than any other single individual. Of course there were others, and they will tell you the same thing; he was the "High Priest". "Le Liasons Dangerous" Recorded in 59. Bass – Jimmy Merritt* Bongos – John Rodriguez* (tracks: 2 to 10) Congas – Tommy Lopez (tracks: 2 to 10), William Rodriguez* (tracks: 2 to 10) Drums – Art Blakey Piano – Bobby Timmons, Duke Jordan (tracks: 3) Soprano Saxophone, Tenor Saxophone – Barney Wilen (tracks: 1, 3 to 9) Trumpet – Lee Morgan https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jw_8i22pBcs&list=PLUJ7V33M1wR0kn82R1Xp6WwvZ47aK-2BPThis music is typical of "Hard Bop", if there is anything typical about any Hard-Bop. These artists are uniquely gifted; I'm saying that going to school and practicing won't get you there, either you got it or you don't. This music began as "African American" music from our great cities, that aren't so great anymore. Whereas I can hear something "African" in the music from Cuba, Brazil, and the Islands, I don't hear that from American jazz. Why this is so, or not so, could be debated until the next millennium, but the reality would remain the same. I hear Chicago, I hear New York, I hear Detroit, and the rest of our cities that were great places to live, love, and create; that's where this music began. In addition, I'm going to add some of my favorites, and in this music I'm celebrating "Pepper Adams". Although he's not the leader, he's one of the other individuals who make this music great. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U_0wBTUvM6M https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__OSyznVDOY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qo0P2YugUnUEnjoy this music. |
I am fascinated to the point of being obsessed by "drum rhythms". I have traced them from Africa to Brazil and the Caribbean. We can divide the Caribbean into Cuba, Haiti, The Dominican Republic, and all of the smaller islands in the Caribbean. The singular most unique thing about these African rhythms, is the fact that they got lost in the U. S. of A. I don't hear any African rhythms emanating from here, maybe someone else does, but I don't. Of course we can incorporate anything we want to in jazz, but I'm speaking of what was originally in "modern jazz"; that's jazz from the 50's to the present; it was "influenced" by Charley "Bird" Parker, more than any other single individual. Of course there were others, and they will tell you the same thing; he was the "High Priest". "Le Liasons Dangerous" Recorded in 59. Bass – Jimmy Merritt* Bongos – John Rodriguez* (tracks: 2 to 10) Congas – Tommy Lopez (tracks: 2 to 10), William Rodriguez* (tracks: 2 to 10) Drums – Art Blakey Piano – Bobby Timmons, Duke Jordan (tracks: 3) Soprano Saxophone, Tenor Saxophone – Barney Wilen (tracks: 1, 3 to 9) Trumpet – Lee Morgan https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jw_8i22pBcs&list=PLUJ7V33M1wR0kn82R1Xp6WwvZ47aK-2BPThis music is typical of "Hard Bop", if there is anything typical about any Hard-Bop. These artists are uniquely gifted; I'm saying that going to school and practicing won't get you there, either you got it or you don't. This music began as "African American" music from our great cities, that aren't so great anymore. Whereas I can hear something "African" in the music from Cuba, Brazil, and the Islands, I don't hear that from American jazz. Why this is so, or not so, could be debated until the next millennium, but the reality would remain the same. I hear Chicago, I hear New York, I hear Detroit, and the rest of our cities that were great places to live, love, and create; that's where this music began. In addition, I'm going to add some of my favorites, and in this music I'm celebrating "Pepper Adams". Although he's not the leader, he's one of the other individuals who make this music great. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U_0wBTUvM6M https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__OSyznVDOY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qo0P2YugUnUEnjoy this music. |
Frogman, that was kind of sneaky the way you discussed both drug use and practicing, while suggesting we not discuss the subject any more.
I'm thankful that although we don't see drug use among jazz musicians, it is a serious problem in this country from North to South, and East to West. From time to time, we have wandered off the subject of music, and I have no objections to that.
Back to the subject of music, and special musicians; I had to laugh when "Bird" emphasized the aspect of schooling, like he had been to Juilliard School of Music. Of course schooling is important, but special people like him have done quite well without it, because they loved music and had the desire, drive, and ambition to succeed, even though school was unavailable due to economic reality.
In small "hard bop" jazz groups, spontaneity is the element that makes them sound so fresh. What they played depended on what was played just before their solo. Herbie Hancock told of the time he "goofed" and played wrong notes, but Miles came right behind him and made it come out beautiful.
In music, what ever the situation calls for, is the thing to do.
Enjoy the music.
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I always find it interesting to read what musicians had to say about other musicians. This is what Trane told Art Pepper, "Why don't you straighten up ? You have so much to offer. Why don't you give the world what you can?" Art said Trane was so successful that everyone always expected him to be in the forefront. The music he had developed, he could no longer play because that wasn't new anymore. He was continually trying to change, and do the avant-garde thing. He strived so hard for this that it killed him. BTW Frogman, Art seems to back you up in regard to practice; since he hadn't practiced before that recording, he knew it was impossible to carry it off, but it was already set up, and he had no choice but to go through with it. Once when he was in the hospital, and couldn't pay the bill, Roland Kirk, and some other musicians got together and played to raise money and help him out. He says what's so unique about this is; he had never met Roland Kirk. This is for Roland Kirk; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWPUKskCv7EEnjoy the music. |
I think this ranks at the top of Art's best work, "Art Pepper Meets The Rhythm Section", sounds so good, but you do have to give the rhythm section a lot of credit. Do we have any Art Pepper scholars here? Is there something better? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16OoypHXcpsEnjoy the music. |
"Bernie's Tune" is a long time favorite of mine, and he sounds much better on this one; that is his horn sounds better, but the overall music on TRS is hard to beat.
I've got that "Pepper + eleven", I'll have to play it.
Thanks for the clips
Enjoy the music.
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Rok, I smell a "conspiracy" in regard to that harassment after she married a young husband.
Once "they" found something that could stick "they" wouldn't let up.
Who cares about what an entertainer does as long as they entertain? Nobody but "them".
Will get back to you with more.
Enjoy the music.
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Alex, that's about the most intelligent statement you've made. Day by day the music and this whole hobby is becoming more and more irrelevant; especially when I know why people don't have jobs and are suffering so much; there has been a transfer of the wealth in this country that most people don't understand; it's related to the price of food and gasoline among other things. But you can count on the media to get everything wrong; intentionally.
Fox TV seems to keep more people dumbed down than anything I know; nothing is more stupid than that left, right talk, and "race" is used to manipulate people into doing all sorts of stupid s--t.
in 1980, I sold real estate in the grandest subdivision I have ever seen that the "working man" could afford to live in. The space in all these uniquely designed homes was divided up in a way where just about anyone could get what they wanted.
Some had huge kitchens with a center island, like kitchens you see in rich LA homes. They all had 3 or 4 bedrooms, 2 baths, and a double car garage. They also had a family room for entertaining, and a small front room, that stayed spotless because it was never used. Although all these homes had the same total amount of space, it was divided up in many different ways, and they were all in the same price range. This subdivision had it's own security and a swimming pool.
At that time there were three Black families living in that subdivision, who all were professionals with degrees.
There was never any kind of "known" problem in that subdivision, but an "unknown" problem existed; one racist agent told his client not to sell to Blacks, and my Black client wanted to buy that house. They caused so many problems, that I finally persuaded my client to pick another, even better house in that same subdivision.
The Whites that lived there worked at the Aircraft factory, or at Ford Motors; this was the American Dream, and it was available for the working man. It was available because of the Unions that made sure the workers got their fair share of the profits.
While neither that subdivision or that community was racist; I have three points to make: 1. A working man could afford a grand style of living at that time.
2. Instead of enjoying his grand life, he resented a Black man living in the same life style.
3. He resented it so much that he voted against his own economic interest for the sake of some racial interest that won't buy a slice of bread.
By voting for people who consider working class people beneath them, and only consider the interests of the arostocracy, we have poverty for the working man, and riches more than the aristocracy can count.
Those people even turned the Democratic party around; have you ever heard of NAFTA.
If you notice Fox TV uses "race" to manipulate people; some people can be manipulated to hang themselves if they think it's the "Right" thing to do meaning the "conservative" thing to do; they do not have the ability to think for themselves; they talk in left, right code talk, meaning "Progressives" who ever they are, are the bad people; this is the same as when the "boogy man" communists were the enemy, or the union was the enemy, they're too dumb to realize that the union was "them" and it fought for their wages, and jobs and benefits. Now that there is no union, how do they like food stamps?
BTW, hit don't make no difference now. The Democratic president considers the Trans Pacific Partnership more important than poverty or unemployment. Although this is a music forum and I thoroughly appreciated everyone's contributions, I can chew gum and walk at the same time.
I wish more people would look at what has happened to the middle working class in this country.
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Rok, I'm so glad you didn't come up with any of the answers I expected you to come up with. Now I can happily get back to the music. This is the most unusual record in my collection https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bhdFmgoP4NEEnjoy the music. |
Ghosthouse, and Acman; we've been down this road many times before, I suggest you ignore it.
Did you click on the link for the female vocalist?
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Ghosthouse, I have that CD, and I only play it to discover what it sounds like.
I like Bud Powell, and I like Chick Corea even more because I have him throughout my collection; but I do not like that CD.
Bud Powell did his thing, Chick is still doing his thing, and those things are a very long way apart; trying to associate both things did not work for me.
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Since my purpose is to discover what a new aficionado likes, I am never offended; you still have two more West Coast tracks to judge.
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Ghosthouse, when I went to the record store, it was never about "West Coast" or "East Coast", it was just about the name of the album and who the artists were. Now that I'm trying to communicate with you, in order to help your collection, I'm saying "East Coast" for that purpose.
Frogman is the only professional in our club, and the one to talk to for concise definitions. Since I never had to define things to myself when I went to the record store, I'm quite rusty; fortunately, Frogman is our go to guy for descriptions of music and definitions; he offered to teach me, but I'm too busy to learn, I find it much easier to rely on him for such things.
Enjoy the mmusic.
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Ghosthouse, you've got one person to please, and that's you. Nobody is going to get me to learn to appreciate raw oysters, I don't care how good they are.
There is such a thing as "growing" into a new genre of music when another Aficionado is pointing things out to you; this is the way I would be if I got into classical, but you are doing right by paying close attention to the albums like "Blue Train" where there is a strong consensus, plus the very best sidemen.
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Ghosthouse, I was listening to "Something Else" by Cannonball Adderley, released on Blue Note Records in 1958. Also on the session is trumpeter Miles Davis in one of his handful of recording dates for Blue Note. Cannonball Adderley – alto saxophone Miles Davis – trumpet Hank Jones – piano Sam Jones – bass Art Blakey – drums https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLPW93VIVgsThis is the complete album, and I would like to know your honest opinion of this album, as well as all the rest of the aficionados out there? |
"Somethin Else" has been one of my favorite albums since it came out. I would like to point out one small detail that's easily overlooked; that's the fact that "Something" on that album is spelled "Somethin" minus the "G"; but however you spell it, it still sounds good.
The music ranges from beautiful ballads to the hardest of "hard-bop", and all the musicians are in fine form. The tunes are: "Autumn Leaves", "Love for Sale", "Somethin Else", "One for Daddy-O" and "Dancing In The Dark"; don't forget to give me your review and rating of this album.
Enjoy this music.
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We are the music we like; as I stated previously, it began when we first wiggled our little buns to the music we liked; blues, rock, pop, or even Blue Grass.
Jazz is a language that speaks to some and not to others; Portuguese is the only language that seems to speak to me, even though I don't understand a single solitary word, but I like the sound of the words. Maybe jazz in general is a language that doesn't speak to you.
Now that you have sampled several different categories of jazz, you can choose which turns you on the most.
Enjoy the music.
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Asterwart, that LP started life in the top percentile of jazz albums, and there's not a cut on it that I don't like; they all have different grooves.
"Bangoon" isn't on the LP, maybe they got it on you tube. I'm with you on "Autumn leaves", that one is tops in my book.
Me and Randy have something in common, we both like songs sung in Portuguese, although neither of us understand a single solitary word. I found that song he sang for his grandmother.
BTW you will find "Somethin Else" in just about every aficionado's collection.
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Ghosthouse, I noticed you didn't mention what you thought about those two Mingus cuts. They both contain some fantastic jazz, and I have come to the conclusion that you didn't hear it.
I don't think it's necessary to make an effort to hear and listen to good jazz. If you didn't hear it, forget it; it's not your cup of tea. You once said that was the case with "jazz jazz". One should not have to make an effort to enjoy music, and I could very well live without "new jazz".
You asked me about Michael Breker's, "Syzygy" and it sounds like it's spelt; we begin with "noodling" as you described it; although the rest of the crew is just fine, and the tune gets better as it progresses.
"Boogie Stop Shuffle"; the lead off sounds like a "Rock" guitar and certainly doesn't have the feel of the original "Boogie Stop Shuffle". Since this is "new jazz", I'm not the one who can give a critical appraisal; although halfway through it gets interesting.
From my point of view, these musicians would be better off without that tribute thing where they include another well known musician, unless they felt they could capture the essence of the other musician.
"Weird Nightmare" is interesting, and it might be capturing the essence of that tune. Mingus can be very complex at times, and I would have to do a lot of listening to grade Andy Summers on this album. He's got a host of musicians unknown to me on this album.
I will have to first listen to Mingus, and come back to "Peggy's Blue Sky light", and let you know whether or not Andy Summers succeeded. Without a doubt I will have to listen to this on the big rig, it's not sounding too good on this one.
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Tarzan! What do the drums say?
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Rok, you're 100% correct, looking at everything through the prism of race is total stupidity. If you look through the prism of economic class, you will see the light, and that's what Fox TV forbids. Then, if you're a working class stiff, you will see Fox TV is not your friend. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p94rvSMo6DoEnjoy the music. |
Ghosthouse, at last, something I don't have to "pontificate" over; plain and simple; I like it and what "all" of the artists are doing as well; Michael Brecker-Tales From The Hudson -African Skies.
Brecker left out his "noodling", and he's blowing in fine form. McCoy Tyner is very much himself; I can't think of a new word at the moment, but it would amount to more "Tyneresque"; Trane fanatics know what I'm trying to say. Plus I like the African flavor.
Mingus is a lot about "culture"; he's a painter, and when you don't know the culture, you can't see the picture.
Enjoy the music.
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Ghosthouse, St. Louis has a fantastic art museum; when I took my son, (who was a little tyke at the time) to infuse some culture in the kid, I got lost in the paintings, and almost lost my little tyke. (The way the guards acted, those paintings must have been worth a few bucks)
Maybe I should go again and we can compare art to music?
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Frogman, I noticed all the comments were made by musicians. When I went to see "Trane" live, the professional musician at the table was the only person out of five who knew exactly what Trane was doing, when according to the rest of us he went to the seventh galaxy. (that musician is still with us and performing)
Absolutely nothing against the greatness of "John Coletrane", but it has been stated by those of us who are not musicians, that "Trane" had a tendency to "experiment", travel to unknown galaxies during his performances. I didn't understand it then, and I wouldn't understand it now; when musicians travel to parts unknown, it's a musician thing.
I'm listening to pilgrimage now, and it isn't inaccessible, it's quite listenable. While I liked all of those musicians, Herby Hancock might be the only one who never lost me; (not referring to this record, but down through the years) "Pilgrimage" is a record I'll have to get. When ever the music gets anywhere near what was referred to as "free blowing" or "loft jazz" I was lost. There is a slim line between improvisation, and too far out; when the musicians speed is faster than his ideas, that's when one of us is lost.
Sometime the links require a degree of listening that I don't give them; that means I should listen to them at a better time.
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Ghosthouse, that was thirty years ago when me and the little tyke were at the art museum. I would certainly like to go again, but did you see the steps in front of the museum. The library is even worse, the steps to the first floor are at least three stories high.
If you're ever in St. Louis, the price is right (free), but if your legs aren't up to it, ( mine aren't) don't even think about it, that's a big place.
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Frogman, time, time and time again, the same thing has been said about "Trane"; he goes to galaxies out in the far reaches of the universe. I believe musicians are impressed by the complexity of what he's playing, while people like me are saying; "But it don't sound like squat".
Since "Trane" is one of the greatest musicians who ever lived, that statement is "Blasphemy". No matter who is blowing, I divide the music into two categories; this sound good, that don't.
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Frogman, the only place communism exists is in Cuba, and the poor people are doing better in Cuba than they are here. Communism is about as much a threat here as the boogieman.
We fought a war in Vietnam to stop communism, and we all Know how that Turned out. Rich people profit from wars while poor people die fighting them.
Acman, do poor people have disposable income? There is a thing called a 401K that includes money which goes to the stock market that working people pay.
Politicians work for rich people as a result of lobbying in both parties. If you notice, even in this hobby, it's no longer affordable; the gear we used to by, is now priced for the rich, because that class is growing, while whatever economic class we are in is shrinking.
There is "no one" representing working class people in this country.
Have a nice day.
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I hate to spoil everybody's fun, but there is as much insanity at the very highest levels of government as in the movies; phone tap, computer tap, and tap the tap; meaning lets get back to the music. I know I started this conversation, and I also Know about the insanity that's not suppose to exist; it's just like in the movies, crazy. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bh9UPDjh2H0How about some more crazy music. |
Alex, I'm savoring your contributions; they're so fresh and new to me. I've heard a lot about the musicians, like Earl Hines and Herb Pomeroy, but don't have them in my collection.
Body and Soul by John Lewis is really mellow; Jim Hall is one of my favorite guitarists.
Keep em coming.
Enjoy the music.
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