Shelter and Triplanar matching ?

Thanks, Doug, I new I should have checked my math before turning in my test paper!

Good luck with the armboard, Ken

Dan

Dougdeacon,

The Tri Plainer WAS at the end of the slots. At that point,realizing we could do no more, we decided to see what the performance would be. We played with the tracking force, vta, and cartridge loading until we had it zeroed in, or at least, thought we did.

Since It had been years since I had vinyl in my system, the sonics overshadowed my desire to get it perfect. Not until I noticed the shaking, did I think a serious problem existed.

Based on your replies, I will tell Sota to send an undrilled armboard, as I have no problem whatsoever in drilling it properly.

Thanks guys, Ken

Dan,

I think it was a 2.0mm error, but your points are well taken.

The .5 error could be attributed to using a different arm than the one the armboard was drilled for. It seems that Tri does not use any fixture when tightening down the mount. This does lead to vaariations from arm to arm. This is why Thom Mackris had me send him my Triplanar so that he could drill the Galibier armboard properly for the arm that will be used. I'm sure this is something Thom has learned from experience.

Best of luck!

Dan

Ken,

Sota has had compatibility issues with the TriPlanar on some lower model tables with wood plinths and recessed armboards, but there should be no issues on a Millenium, other than the goof you already discovered of course. Geoff Husband of TNT-Audio used a Millenium for his review of the TriPlanar without any problems.

A spindle-to-pivot dimension of 235.5mm would put a Shelter at the very end of the slots, assuming you could align it at all. Perhaps that made things unstable enough to cause your vibration. Let's hope a properly drilled armboard will resolve the issue.

Best of luck,
Doug

Dougdeacon,

Thank you for the reply, it never occurred to me that there may be a problem with a new arm, but everyone makes mistakes.

The Sota Mellennium table I'm using was a display unit I purchased at the 2005 CES and was set up with a Tri Plainer VII arm . When I later decided to also purchase a Tri Plainer VII, Sota sent the armboard drilled for , and used at the CES show. When I mounted the arm, I automatically figured the board to be drellid properly. After I posted the shaking problem on Audiogon, I thought I'd check the pivot to tt center dimension. The armboard was drilled to 235.5 mm rather than 233 mm as is specified by Tri Plainer. Upon calling Sota I was told to return the armboard so they could check the hole positions and replace the armboard if necessary. I'll have it back in about a week and check the arm again.

Another thread suggested I increase the mass of the arm by sliding the chamferred weight all the way forward, and then use the lightest counterweight to balance the cartridge out to the desired tracking force. I will perform both steps and if the problem persists, I will return it for a bearing check, as you suggested. regards Ken

Kftool,

The normal setup for a TriPlanar has the chamfer pointing toward the arm bearings, not away.

Assuming proper setup, there is no reason for a TP/Shelter to "shake badly", on any record. If the problem is as bad as you describe, changing counterweights and counterweight positions is not the solution. The effects of those adjustments are fairly subtle.

Tenmus' problem was only resolved with a replacement arm. I'd suggest contacting your dealer or Tri Mai. If I had to guess, I'd guess the bearings might be misadjusted. But that is not a user adjustment.

Hi Tenmus.

I finished setting up my Triplainer-Shelter 90X a few weeks ago. The first thing I played was Swan Lake. The arm shook so badly that I ceased playing the table The next day a call to Tri Plainer resulted in the suggestion that I back the damping screw all the way out of the damping trough.When that didn't work I just stopped playing records, until today. Of course, nothing changed over the last few weeks and the same thing happened.

A light bulb went on and, Audiogon forums to the rescue. Lo and behold I found your forum posting of the same problem I experienced. The replies were enlightening.

I have only one question that might have been answered, maybe I missed it. If increasing the mass of the arm was accomplished by putting the heaviest weight, the only one with the chamfer, all the way up to the pivot point of the arm I assume that the chamfer was pointing to the rear of the arm. Would you please confirm this.

I am posting this reply to your forum topic as well as emailing you a copy, as it has been awhile since there's been activity on that site. I am anxious to hear how good this set up sounds.

I was unable to access your system on Audiogon, maybe I just didn't look in the right place. If you have a system description on Audiogon, please point me in the right direction. Regards, Ken Kftool

Dear Doug: +++++ " Probably the most Colibri-like " +++++

Do you mean that this one has " spark " over the others ?

Dear Raul,

If I understand what you mean by "spark", I'd say yes.

The silver and (especially) the gold UNIverses lack a bit of necessary "spark". They are a bit too polite (only a little for the silver). They sound "pleasant" but they don't quite sound "alive". Some people enjoy a bit of artificial smoothing but it reminds me I'm listening to a stereo and not to live music.

The copper UNIverse does not do this. It is the most honest and therefore the most lifelike of the three, just the right amount of "spark" compared to live. I remember Mikelavigne especially liked that about his Colibri - and between the three UNIverses the copper does this best.

Regards,
Doug

Dear Doug: +++++ " Probably the most Colibri-like " +++++

Do you mean that this one has " spark " over the others ?

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

I see where the ZYX Web site cites both silver and copper with the same coil wire diameter (.035mm) and same weight (5.0gm)

If both cartridges weigh the same and have the same wire diameter, maybe its not extra mass on the silver's cantilever that accounts for the sonic differences.

You're reading too much into that 5.0g weight specification.

First, it's only nominal. I've weighed six ZYX's to the closest 0.01g and they were all different. The variations were larger than could be accounted for by any differences between the coils.

Second, a specification to the nearest .1g is too imprecise to capture any coil variations. You'd have to go out several more decimal places to measure that.

Third, even if you did that, variations in other components would swamp coil variations.

The coils are so tiny compared to the rest of the cartridge that the only way to know anything useful about their mass/weight would be to measure or calculate it directly. Coil weight cannot be deduced from overall cartridge weight, no matter how accurately that is measured.

Maybe its fewer windings of the heavier metal. (??) ).

Could a different number of windings between silver and copper yield different signals?

Given identical magnets, more windings = higher output. Since the output of each cartridge is the same, the number of windings should be the same.

Good questions, but I think my hypothesis is still valid.

I had a conversation,two weeks ago,with a major arm mfgr.He claimed that the best conductor was silver,and that "anything using gold" was inferior.He stated that gold was only useful for keeping oxidation at bey!We were talking arm cabling,here,but there must be some parallels.As for copper,I don't know.To me,from my personal experience,whatever sounds good in a given set-up,is "best".Whatever the make-up!

Also,about a year ago AJ Van denHul was interviewed,in Hi-Fi Plus magazine.He had his own take on the gold/silver/copper issue.Quite interesting stuff,actually.Worth seeking out.

BTW-DOUG,how come you can get away with a Koetsu "knock",and last fall,I almost had my balls cut off for alluding to an antiskate issue?I'm sure there are alot more Koetsu lovers out there.So my advice to all Koetsu fans is---"Let's get Doug"!!I want to see no less than a dozen posts!!! -:)

Hmm!It must be nice to be one of the "chosen few"!! -:)

it should be still worse if Doug had puked in Raul's ferrari while scaling the Everest..

Now that is not a pretty picture at bedtime!

Doug: "Extra mass on the cantilever means reduced transient speed and rolled off waveforms."

That seems like a reasonable explanation. I see where the ZYX Web site cites both silver and copper with the same coil wire diameter (.035mm) and same weight (5.0gm).

If both cartridges weigh the same and have the same wire diameter, maybe its not extra mass on the silver's cantilever that accounts for the sonic differences. Maybe its fewer windings of the heavier metal. (??)

Could a different number of windings between silver and copper yield different signals?

Raul,

I'm not saying any HOMC will be worse than any LOMC. That would be silly, comparing apples and oranges. But given the same manufacturer and model, the HO version will tend to be less accurate and less dynamic than the LO version. That's all.

Now if I could just learn to puke while swimming in a tuxedo...

Dear Doug: Maybe I miss something.

+++++ " For me, this A/B/C comparison settled any argument about HO vs. LO MC's. " +++++

What do you mean with that statement? in reference to what?. Please explain about.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Doug,thanks for the interesting comparison.

"More Koetsu-ish than a Koetsu.It made me puke"-

Now I have to admit that it's a dead heat,in terms of "great post quotes",between Raul's "swimming in a tuxedo"(I really laughed at that one)and now this,which is funny,yet the puking part doesn't tickle me,as much-:).STILL,it's a tied ball game,between the two of you!!

Best!

Doug,could you enlighten me,as to the differences between the ZYX Univ "silver vs copper",as this is of interest to me?Thanks,in advance.

SirSpeedy,

I've had three UNIverses in my system: copper, silver and gold coils. (Gold is by special order, Mehran doesn't stock them.) The price is the same for all three IIRC.

The sonic differences were precisely the opposite of what I expected, precisely the opposite of what electrical conductivity would lead anyone to expect.

COPPER
Most neutral, least colored, comes closest to achieving live microdynamics, reproduces natural waveforms the best. Probably the most Colibri-like of the three UNIverses (remembering Mikelavigne's comparison). Easily my favorite and Paul's. Requires the most careful attention to VTF and especially VTA/SRA. No gain without the pain.

SILVER
Slightly warmed/smoothed, almost Koetsu-ish, which means we didn't like it at all. Mehran sells about as many of these as copper and many people love it. Just not our cup of tea, we do not tolerate rolled off transients. Cello and Vetterone also prefer the copper, but if this is the kind of thing you like, you'd like it!

GOLD
Very warmed/smoothed, more Koetsu-ish than a Koetsu. Personally it made me puke, but gold resists harsh chemical conditions well so it survived the short visit and the trip back to Mehran! Grado fans might enjoy it, or someone with a terribly edgy system that needed taming. We prefer accuracy at the source and fine tuning later if need be, but YMMV as always.

It took me forever to puzzle out why superior conductors created inferior results, but it's obvious if you forget electricity and consider the whole picture. Silver is denser than copper and gold is denser still. Extra mass on the cantilever means reduced transient speed and rolled off waveforms. It's like Twl's HIFI mod, mis-applied. Greater inertia on the tonearm increases stability, greater inertia on the cantilever impairs stylus freedom.

For me, this A/B/C comparison settled any argument about HO vs. LO MC's. Here were three identical MC cartridges, all of them highly resolving, the only difference being the coil material. The lowest mass coils produced notably more accurate results even though they were inferior from an electrical standpoint. End of argument. If the stylus can't trace the groove right it doesn't matter how well the electrons flow.

While your out swimming in your Tux, be catious of the Man in the Grey Flannel Suit! He usually has a huge grin on his face.

Raul

You are speaking of PP with high gain and no SUT in it is it the case of the JADIS JP 80 MC version?

Who are these other builders and which models are you thinking of ?

Thanks

Hi everybody

Really great to discuss with you all...at least things are clearer now .
Doug and Raul
Thank you for your support...

Sirspeedy
Thanks for humour... always welcome.

Bye

André

Dear friends: Here are some facts about why exist the SUTs for LO cartridges ( at least is my point of view ):

- In the fifthies appear the MC LO cartridges ( As a fact: Ortofon invented in 1948. ). In that time all the phonopreamps were designed for HO cartridges MM/MI/etc. No one was in the design of high gain PP because no body need it.

- Ortofon and latter other MC LO cartridges never ask to the PP designers/builders to manufacture a high gain PP for their MC LO cartridges. What I mean is that never exist a cooperation job between the MC LO builders and the PP manufacturers.

- What was the comercial attitude of almost all MC LO cartridges builders?: to put on sale their MC LO cartridges along with a SUTs ( designed for it self ) for those MC LO cartridges.

- I can remember from Ortofon when they design the MC10, MC 20, Mc 30, Mc 2000, Mc 3000 and MC 5000, cartridges at the same time they offer the respective SUT: T 10, T 20, T 30, T 5000.

- Like Ortofon everybody do the same: Denon, Audiocraft, Fidelity Research, Koetsu, Micro Seiki, Accuphase, Dynavector, Highphonic, Audio Technica, Entre, etc, etc.

- In the mid-time what does the PP designers ( SS or tube ) for the development of a high gain PP?: almost nothing, almost all take the easy " cheap road " ( wrong/worst one ): that the customers buy SUTs along with their PP if they want to handle a LO cartridge. Some of the PP designers/builders incorporate in their " high gain " PP internal SUTs, exactly like today ones.

- No body take the challenge to design a HG PP with out SUTs. There are some exceptions: Curl, Levinson, Pass, Klyne, Classé, D'angostino, etc, etc,

- So we all are suffering the " easy road/ wrong road " that almost all designers/builders take it more than 55 years ago.

- All those comercial attitude never take into account us: the audio customers and never take into account the QUALITY MUSIC/SOUND REPRODUCTION. They don't care about in those times and many of them don't care about today.

Fortunatelly, in the last few years, some PP builders finally take the challenge ( others like me designed our self ones ) and we have some very good HG PP, many of them at very high price.

This change of comercial attitude: Bravo!!!!!!, could tell us that the best about is coming because the developtment of HG PPs are really " starting ", it is not a mature industry.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Very interesting thread,and responses,btw.Two years ago,while swimming off the Long Island Sound(near Sea Cliff),and in my "water proof tuxedo"(God I love you Raul)I was aware that if I wanted to enhance my phono performance it was going to cost me dearly.My alternatives were to sell my current unit,or have a complete rebuild(from Great Northern Sound).The thought of the "buying and selling" syndrome didn't appeal as much as the assurance of this very expensive rebuild.Glad I did do it,and my low output cartridge loves it.Plenty of gain.I've never been happy with SUT's,and I've had a few.Keep it simple,seems the way to go!!
Doug,could you enlighten me,as to the differences between the ZYX Univ "silver vs copper",as this is of interest to me?Thanks,in advance.

Well I've got to hang up my Tux now.

Best to all!

Dear André and Doug: Today, I think that we are talking on the same subject where we agree at all.

Doug the small differences between your opinion and mine is ( I think ) my first hand experiences on HO cartridges: I owned at least 12 differents ones, I own around 14 ones and I heard it ( out of my system ) several ones. Sometime, you have to try it.

André, is up to you. Good luck on your cartridge hunt.

Regards and enjoy the music.
raul.

Dear André: Here are some recomendations for a HO cartridge:

Reson Aciore, Grado Reference, Music Maker III, Clearaudio Virtuoso, Sumiko Blackbird, Goldring 1042. Now, if you can find, second hand, an Audio Technica AT 170 or ( better yet ) 180 OCC ATML you will be on " music heaven ". This AT MM cartridge compete with the very top low output cartridges and outperforms many of them.

This is an extract of a review on the Grado one: " "Without question these are the best phono cartridges out there,REAL BASS,smooth non tipped up highs(like moving coils) the music has meat to it,sounds very real,as if you could step into the music.And despite what others have said it is fast and articulate,plus you don't need a step-up device,(less between you and the music)."

The MM cartridges are like the " lost link " in analog. No body cares about and I think that no body cares about because the no know-how on the MM subject and a comercial bias through the LO MC cartridges.
Almost all professional audio reviewers and cartridge manufacturers are on the " comercial business ", where they obtain more money: LO MC cartridges.
The bias for the LO MC cartridges has nothing to do with a " better quality sound reproduction ", it has to do only with " money " and the no know-how of us the customers. The MM alternative is not only a very good one but in many audio subjects superior to the LO MC one.

Any one that want to tell me that the LO MC cartridges are better than the HO/MM ones has to prove it ( I think it could not ) and I can tell you that I can prove that the HO/MM technology is up to the task and a lot, lot, lot less expensive. This price characteristics is one of the issues why the people don't buy MM cartridges: " is to cheap to be good ". NO KNOW-HOW.

I almost never speaks in this forum about MM cartridges because almost all the people in this forum is out of that game, but this fact does not means that the MM subject is a " low-Fi " option. No, certainly it is not.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Andre,

I partially agree with Raul and partially disagree:

- if you are looking for the very best phono performance and,
- if you are willing and able to spend enough money then,
- an SUT is not the way to go.

I have bettered my Bent/c-j setup, but it cost me about $6K to do it. That was for a privately designed and built preamp that is not sold commercially. If it were it would retail for $10K+ and it would be a bargain, since it easily beats commercial units costing a lot more than that. Raul's preamp is also a private design/build. I have not heard it but I expect it also sounds magnificent, better than any SUT. But that's not available to the public either, and it would probably cost more than mine if it were.

These private builds are better than most if not all commercial phono and line stages. Mine has been A/B'd against Lamm, Klyne and other top names, and it beats them all. I expect Raul's would too. The problem is finding a serious designer to work with. (If you were in Mexico or the USA it would be easy, Raul or could introduce you.)

If your budget is limited there are two reasonable approaches:

- use a MM or HOMC, as Raul suggests
- use a LOMC with SUT or head amp

I was very happy with the second approach. Since it cost a lot of time and money to beat it, I think it's viable and so do many other people. The pleasure I got from several LOMC's would never have happened without the Bent's, or something like them. I would regret it if I'd missed that.

Doug

Dear André: +++++ " Are they all wrong ? " +++++

This is one of my posts about:

+++++ " Dear friends: I'm not against the SUT " per se ", I'm against what the SUT makes to the cartridge signal: heavy degradation.

I like many of you used the SUT for many years till I discovery that the best SUT is NO SUT. I already try severals SUT's and all of them do a severe degradation to the cartridge signal.

Maybe some of you can think that an Audio NOte Kondo or Expressive Technologies SUT's don't have any problem: wrong, all SUT's have the same problems and all of them degraded the cartridge signal.

We have to understand that the low output MC cartridges was not build " thinking " in a low gain phonopreamps ( tube or SS ). The low gain phonopreamps like yours is only for CD, high output MC and MM cartridges ( btw: Music Maker, Sumiko and Audio Technica have great cartridges too ).
Tha's why I can tell you that if you have a low gain phono stage with a low output MC cartridge: you choose the wrong cartridge to go. For any one can enjoy and discover ( really enjoy ) the " magic " quality sound reproduction of a low output MC cartridge any one needs a high-gain phono preamp, with out any PATCH ( external/internal SUT/Autoformer. With out any mis-match between cartridge impedance and SUT that equalized the cartridge signal, always. ) ) no question about.

When you are using a low output MC cartridge with a low gain phono preamp it is like if you want to scale the Everest in a Ferrari Testa Rosa or like you want to swim in the sea dressed with a Tuxedo instead of a swimwear. Sure you can to swim dressed on a Tuxedo but: Imagine that!!! That's what you have on your audio system, it does not matters if your audio systems cost 10K or 500K. " +++++

Are they all wrong?, no, simple: they choose the wrong cartridge to go or the wrong phonopreamp for that cartridge. That's all. Is simple as that.

André there are a misconception and no-know how about and this is the problem why the people take the wrong " road ".

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Dear Raul

I have already tried this solution with my audionote MM IQ3 wich is the top MM cartridge at Audionote

Of course when my cartridge was worned and before beginning all this thread I had thought to go on either with HOMC or with a better MM cartridge wich could avoid me this problem of searching the good headamp or the right SUT;
I plug the wire of my tonearm in the jadis and that's all: SIMPLE

Two friends much more experimented than me have also the same jadis equipment ( MODIFIED ) with much better sources ( Goldmund ref + T3F +koetsus or shelter90X) and great loudspeakers and the result is great .
Of course they both use an head amp personnaly made for them by the first ingeneer from JADIS .

Most of the people who choose a Jadis JP80 Choose the MC version because they say it is the only one to choose and they add an head amp or a SUT.
Are they all wrong ?

It seems now there are two solutions in your opinion :

1) I keep my Jadis MC and I choose a MM or a HOMC cartridge
2) Change my preamp

The first one could effectively at least be tried but precisely with wich cartridge.

The second one is unconceivable for me today because it is a too much heavy change for me and because I think I still have a huge progression in front of me even with the jadis .

Of course Raul I really appreciate your effort to drive me in the good direction and I can't contest or approve your opinion as I have no references enough to do it .

Dear Doug: With al my respect to you and trying to help André and to you:



- The André audio system is in the 50K range price: Verdier, JP80, JA 200, Triplanar, Shelter, etc, etc.



-The André Jadis preamp was not designed for low output cartridges , it was designed for high output ones: this is a fact.



- You are one of the regular to this forum and I think that you want to help André given him your best advise and in my opinion you are not doing that.



- You are supporting a 600.00 dls solution ( the worst/wrong one. ) for a 50K audio system and this is not fair for André and the music.



- With that " worst/wrong " solution the André audio system quality sound reproduction will belongs to that un-named " worst/wrong " solution ??????? This is a big mistake. Of course, André can take it, is up to him.



- The JP80 was designed for MM or high output MC cartridges and out there there are several great high output ones that beats easily your supporting " worst/wrong " solution.



- MM from Ortofon, Music Maker, Rega, Goldring, Grado, Audio Technica, Sumiko, Clearaudio, Roksan, Reson, etc, etc. and high output MC from: Sumiko ( the Blackbird is a champ ), Clearaudio, Allaerts, etc, etc.





André, if you really like/love music ( and want to hear in all " glory " your Jadis electronics instead of one additional transformer: step-up transformer ) and take care about music my advise is that you could think for a moment in the MM/HO MC option that is not only the best quality sound reproduction solution but less expensive that Doug alternative. As I told you: is up to you and your music priorities.



Regards and enjoy the music.

Raul.

Doug

Do you know what could be the consequences if matching an Airy 3 SILVER version with a COPPER SUT ? or the opposite?

André

My old c-j PV11 provided 47 db, nearly identical to your Jadis, and my Bent SUT's are 1:10. That setup was fine.

Your gain control will probably be fairly sensitive, but having ample gain from the SUT keeps tube noise low. It was a good tradeoff in my system.

Doug

Thanks for this usefull info.
My Jadis JP 80 provides 48 dB , so it should work even with the 0,24 mV version wich seems the best choice according your review.

I would be pleased to have your opinion on this precise point regarding only the best way to make the 0,24 mV version working fine .

There's a useful preamp gain calculator on this site:

http://www.kabusa.com

It will help you estimate the necessary gain for any cartridge. (+ or - 5% from their recommendation is fine in my experience.)

In this case, a 0.24mv cartridge needs approximately 63db of gain before the line stage. A 1:10 SUT provides 20db, so your MM phono section must provide the rest. If your MM phono has about 40-46db you'll be fine.

Dear Doug

I have contacted John Chapmann from Bent .

I provided him the specifications of my preamp to know if the standard ratio 1:10 for gain is correct with both airy versions ( 0,24 and 0,48mV). In his opinion it is enough.

I would be pleased to have your opinion on this precise point regarding only the best way to make the 0,24 mV version working fine .

Thanks

André

Andre,

The loading on the Bent's is easily adjustable. The gain is not adjustable without installing a switch or re-soldering, either of which would add a connection in the signal path.

You can only buy BentAudio products directly from the company, which is in Canada. They don't have dealers.

http://www.bentaudio.com

You may be able to buy the transformers Bent uses in France (Stephens & Billington TX-103's, made in the UK). You'd have to connect them yourself and provide your own shielded cases, resistor sockets, input jacks and shielded output cables with plugs.

Hi doug

I don't know exactly the gain value so I have send a mail to Audio note and I expect an answer.

What I can tell you is that the level was perfectly correct with the Shelter wich is 0,5 mV and much lower with A DL 103 wich is only 0,30 mV .

I could also be interested to buy A Bent SUT ( if possible from France)if I am sure to be able to adjust the GAIN and the Load myself .

André

Andre,

If you can only choose between 20 ohms or 80, try them both and choose the one that sounds best. I'd bet on 80, but there's no harm in trying both.

What is the stepup ratio (or gain in dB) of your ANS2? That will also effect whether you should go for a low or high output ZYX.

Doug

Dear DOUG

My SUT is actually an Audio Note ANS2 with two positions :

20 ohms and 80 ohms

Considering only the technical facts could you tell me wich output voltage would match the best with my actual SUT if I CHOOSE AN AIRY 3 X SB.

Considering musical facts is the difference between the 2 versions very important.

Thanks

The ideal impedance for the SUT with both AIRY 3 and UNIverse is 6,6 ohm with 0,24 output version ?

I meant to write 66 ohms, but that is in MY system. LOMC's are so sensitive to impedance when using an SUT that no one can predict the ideal value for a cartridge in YOUR system. Experimentation is the only way.

(Would it be 13,2 ohm with the 0,48 mV version?)

132 ohms, as above x 2, subject to the warning about different systems.

How is it possible to adjust so precisely the impedance on the SUT ?

By putting a pair of resistors on each terminal. Using resistors in parallel allows for much finer adjustments.

Doug

P.S. I haven't heard a top linear arm, so no comment. It does make theoretical sense that a cartrdige should last longer, provided alignment is perfect. 5x longer? Who knows?

I think, it is difficult to say, this or that Arm Design is definite. The Linear Arms improved the last years, specially with the Kuzma Air Line, but there still is some side force into the needle bearing, in my opinion more than with a good Arm like Graham ( just for example ). I think, the cartridges do not last longer in a linear Arm, only when it is very low in weight it is possible. The strenghts and weaks for every design are still valid. A friend uses a - light - Zyx in such an Arm and I think, that's the best compromise.

Hi Raul and Doug

One Friend of mine who owns a T3 F Goldmund and a Goldmund Reference TT tells me that with LINEAR tonearm the cartridge can last five times more than with a pivoted tone arm ; is it true ?

Sonically did you hear the differences between a good linear and a good pivoted tonearm?

André

Hi Doug

Thank you for all the infos.

Could you just tell me if I' m not wrong:

The ideal impedance for the SUT with both AIRY 3 and UNIverse is 6,6 ohm with 0,24 output version ?

(Would it be 13,2 ohm with the 0,48 mV version?)

How is it possible to adjust so precisely the impedance on the SUT ?

Many thanks

André

Dear André: Due to your music priorities I think that you should put on your cartridge list: Dynavector XV-1, Allaerts MC2 Finish and Transfiguration W/V. Well the Colibrí too but this cartridge is for a " patience " people. Btw, Allaerts give a 10,000 hours on their cartridges.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

In your opinion how many hours before retipping a cartridge ?

I have not put enough hours on any high end cartridge to know from my own experience. If you search Vinyl Asylum you'll find hundreds of posts from people who have. People report anything from 1,000 to 3,000 hours.

In theory, conical styli wear fastest, elliptical styli last longer, fine line and micro-ridge syli last longest.

Not all manufacturers retip/rebuild their cartridges. Koetsu, ZYX and some others do. Shelter does not. Aftermarket companies *might* retip a Shelter, but I don't know that for sure. If they won't, then when the stylus wears out the cartridge is a throwaway.

How much does it cost for an AIRY 3 and for a UNIverse?

In the US the best prices for a ZYX are from Mehran of SoraSound, who sells here on Audiogon.
- Airy 3 $2,350
- UNIverse $4,950

http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?anlgcart&1142247849

In other countries an Airy 3 can be bought from the distributor or their dealers. You'd have to ask them their prices.

The UNIverse can *only* be bought from Mehran (see link above). He underwrote its development and has worldwide distribution rights. This is a good thing, not a bad one. Mehran is one of the nicest, most honest and most generous people you will ever meet.

[quote]Do you still use your SUT Bent AUDIO with the UNIverse?

We did until two months ago, with quite satisfactory results. Then we got a new preamp with an MC phono stage that's better than the Bent SUT's. See my system for details. The Bent's are very good for the money, but they can be bettered if you spend enough.

Hi Doug

Read your rewiews ...It makes me dreaming

However could you answer those basics questions:

In your opinion how many hours before retipping a cartridge ?
How much does it cost for an AIRY 3 and for a UNIverse?
Do you still use your SUT Bent AUDIO with the UNIverse?

Thanks

André

I defer to Raul re: silver vs. copper wire, since copper is all I've heard. (One exception: copper coil ZYX's are more neutral than silver, and silver is more neutral than gold. This is not what I expected before I demoed them, but it is what I heard. Others have heard the same.)

What I can say is that I want a sound wich is the more natural as possible(NO COLORATION at all) with the more details as possible ( no agressivity, no HARSHNESS) .

I am listening to 60% classical and 40% jazz .

Well then, the good news is your present setup (901/TP) can be improved on a great deal. The 901 was slightly peaky on every arm I heard it on (except a Schroeder Ref). On a TP VII, Graham 2.2, Basis Vector and modded OL Silver it always overshot on leading edge transients. This gave it a lively but artificial character that would sometimes sound aggressive or harsh. Once you've heard a truly neutral cartridge a 901 becomes almost intolerable.

Forget Koetsu. Every one I've heard (up to the RSP) was colored. Many people love the Koetsu sound, but I was always concious of hearing the Koetsu, rather than the vocalists or instruments (especially instruments). The main characteristic is about the opposite of the 901. Transient leading edges are rolled off and smoothed. This makes the sound artificially pleasant, warm or sweet. (The silver and gold coils ZYX's do something similar.)

The regulars here all know what I'm going to recommend. Buy yourself a ZYX UNIverse-X-SB. It is a perfect match for your arm, a perfect match for your sonic goals, a perfect match for your musical tastes - all of which I share. Comparing it to a Shelter 901 would be ridiculous. The UNIverse is unimaginably superior. A ZYX Fuji, Airy 2 or Airy 3 would meet your needs better than a 901. A UNIverse will probably meet your needs for as long as you listen to music, or until you wear it out.

Please read the reviews linked next to my signature. They will give you many details.

DOUG

You are completly right , the best solution is to try every equipment in your own system before buying.

Unfortunately that's quite impossible in France with all what concerns the Vinyl equipment: turntables ,cartridges, tonearms , step up or Head amps ...
because it's only interesting a few people and therefore it is not developped
by the sellers (excepted for budget equipment).

So it is difficult to describe my sonic goals as I have no precise references.
What I can say is that I want a sound wich is the more natural as possible(NO COLORATION at all) with the more details as possible ( no agressivity, no HARSHNESS) .

I am listening to 60% classical and 40% jazz .

Dear André: +++++ " are pure silver ( audio note AN V).
Would it be better to have exactly the same wire ( discovery) everywhere? " +++++

The important issue here is not if it is cooper or silver or both, the important subject is which one is more: neutral/natural than the others. My experience with tonearm wires tell me that the silver ones ( at least what I try ) are better specially the Audio Note one, is a little expensive but it is really great, you can't go wrong with it.

Now, about what you are thinking on cartridges I think that with your TP you could choose with freedom any top cartridge.
I agree with Doug about the importance on your music bias because different manufacturer cartridges have different music presentation.
Btw, the Io is truly great and I don't know why the people in this forum never talk about. You can add to your cartridge list: Dynavector, Allaerts and Transfiguration.

Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul.

Some of my Lp ( most of them are second handed) have a succession of tiny waves

Yikes!

On these records of course the TP / Shelter still shakes but I think now that it is normal ... I only didn't hear it with the Rega /audio note because it was less transparent and perhaps (???) the TP/Shelter has less tolerance than the Rega / audio note when reading a bad record .

Well, the TP is one of the great tracking arms, certainly much better than my OL Silver, which is similar to your Rega. But I don't have any records quite as bad as what you described.

The Shelter is quite new... but I effectively already think to go farther perhaps with a Zyx ( wich model to really feel a difference?) or the Shelter 90 X or a Koetsu ( Rosewood ) ...I don't know wich one would match the best the TP

A ZYX is a better theoretical match for a TP than a Shelter or Koetsu. But it's also important to ask this: What kind of music do you play? Can you describe your sonic goals? What do you like best (and least) about your 901?

You apparently haven't heard a ZYX or Koetsu, but they are very different from a Shelter and also from each other. You will hear major differences between all of these.

You tell me that the Tp 's wire is copper , is it a problem if the two next modulation wires( From step up to preamp and from preamp to amplifiers)
are pure silver ( audio note AN V).
Would it be better to have exactly the same wire ( discovery) everywhere?

It's certainly not a "problem". It's just a matter of sound. I haven't tried all silver wire so I can't say what differences you would hear. Even those who have tried it might not know how it would sound in *your* system. With wire, tubes, resonance control, cartridge setup and other "tweaks", hearing in your own system is really the only way.