Gladstone,though I can see what is coming,realize these are only my own thoughts,and observations.I make my "thoughts/feelings" based on what is my own intuitive observations,and being involved in the hobby for a few decades.Nothing more!Sometimes certain observations are made using common sense,which I admit to having little of!!
Specifically the Gaia looks overpriced!Period!And I bet it is!Yet I would love to own one,and admit it.The Grand Prix seems a bit pricey at twenty grand too,and it's only my opinion,on a hobbyist website.As to the Galibier Gavia,it seems beautifully composed,in design and manufacture,and seems to be supported by a "caring" and knowledgeable designer,who seems to be marketing a "fairly priced" product( based on what I can ascertain from studying the specifications of said product,and looking at competitors)as is my SOTA COSMOS(rediculously underpriced too boot).Please let me know if I have gone astray,and I appologize in advance,if so!
Best! |
Thom, thanks for advice on loading. Nick has told me he has found 75 ohms to work well with the XV1s and the Universe, so this fits right in to what you've found with the Dynavector.
Ed, you're in very good hands with Thom!
Best,
Dan |
BTW,anything Cello states should not be taken as accurate,in his observations!! -:)
Please allow me to explain,and see if any of you would not agree......
Cello has a fine set-up,defined by good "common sense" choices in componentry.No problemo,so far. -:)
He seems to have a dedicated extra set of hands/ears in his audio pal(Pat),who is well meaning,yet has not(due to similar localization) noticed the serious problem. -:)
Which is...Though a fine set-up(nightly cleaning crew taken into account),the location of said system is a major problem,for serious audio observation! -:)
Allow further analysis,and explanation(please)...Room considerations are just fine,actually(had ya going,there),yet it is the "VIEWING AREA",outside of the listening room which spells "no way I can concentrate" on musical accuracy!! -:)
It is here where I can aid the folks,who will gain(rare)entry to this interesting system.WEAR SUNGLASS!!Really dark ones!!.....
Because....Unlike my own fellow NY/NJ fellow hobbyist "schleps",including me,Cello has the MAJOR DISTRACTION(it affected me,but I never let on...heh,heh)of having a room "with a view", literally"!!
My problem,and yours will be too,was the fact that this audio room overlooked a BEAUTIFUL WATERWAY!!Which(here was MY problem,for listening and concentrating)abounded with "pleasure crafts".......These pleasure crafts more than occassionally had LOVELY LASSES,in ITZY BITZY BIKINIS being pulled by long ropes.....
Really long ropes!....I think you call this WATER SKIING!...Oye,vey!!
NOW,how many of the folks sporting these analog threads believe they can fairly asses a set-up,which is "set-up" as such?
Scantily clad "babes" and Accurate musical observation don't mix!! -:)
Who disagrees with my logic? |
Yes, I'm very comfortable with Thom, as well as with the theory and execution of his TTs. I can hardly wait to hear one!
Thanks, Raul, for explaining static and dynamic balancing with the SME V -- whether or not it makes a discernable sonic difference -- it is always good to know one's options.
Ed |
SirSpeedy--I haven't heard the Grand Prix, so I was simply curious as to what prompted you to comment on it negatively. I've been intrigued by the table myself. In any case, I appreciate the response. |
Dear Neil: You have very nice audio system: you will hear it, try it.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
We did an all-night tonearm / cartridge session on Saturday night.
Schröder / Triplanar / Universe / XV-1s / Benz LP
Jeez, I'm getting too old for this abuse.
Truthfully, the difference between 35 ohms and 78 (the resistors I had on hand) were very subtle. I should have made this more clear. The change from 105 to 78 however was definitely noticeable and significant.
I didn't want to get too deeply into loading on this thread, but I might note that as my system resolution increases (thanks to the Karna amplifiers and Azzolina horns), I'm seeing the Universe prefer less loading - being currently at 20 ohms.
I plan on further experimentation with the Universe based on this.
I'm planning on further experimentation. I was quite surprised by this recent trial, because I had been running in the area where Doug had been - a touch higher than his preferred 7.8 - at 9 ohms, but in that general range. I'm not sure what's going on here, other than perhaps a reduction of high frequency resonance elsewhere in the system.
This is one reason why you should look at loading from a system tuning perspective and not as an absolute ... much as we wish this were otherwise.
Cheers,
Thom @ Galibier |
SirSkimpy,
We're all easily distracted by "fairly asses", especially if they're "sporting analog threads".
Analog threads follow natural waveforms more realistically, as I'm sure you appreciate.
|
Have any of you, especially Thom, had a chance to experience a Phantom? I have not heard it myself, of course, but I'm very impressed with the ease of its adjustments and I always liked the earlier Graham arms, most of which I heard on Basis tables.
Bob Graham says he did much of his design work on the Phantom on an SME 30/2. I'm not sure how much of it was done on unsuspended tables, so I will leave it to Thom to comment or speculate on the Phantom on Galibier or other unsuspended tables.
Best and as always thanks for the education I'm getting here.
Ed |
Gladstone,sorry if I seemed a bit defensive.The Grand Prix does look "way cool",but c'mon,it's as itsy bitsy as the "Cello's window bikini babes' outfits",and they are asking twenty grand for it.It just looks a little pricey,but of course design developement can be used to diminish my comments(opinion,only).
Also,if you read about it,on the Pos Feedback site(I did),it REALLY could not have been TOO BIG a stretch for the reviewer(who admittedly has,and is thrilled with)to make an "itsy bitsy" comparison with his beloved Walker Proscenium table.Not a "peep" there.Where's Arthur Salvatore when you need him?We got stroked,there!!
What a "PUFF" piece,to state how wonderful the Grand Prix "seems",and not compare it to the Walker,sitting five feet away.
Can anyone say "marketing" shmooze?Condescending,to boot.We deserved a comparison.At least !!
Ed,To give a bit of insight as to your question,I have a nice Graham 2.2 that I love.A nice arm,like so many spoken of here!I am now familiar with the Phantom too,yet have not made any side by side comparisons.The Phantom is a superb arm,and is very well thought out.It will,most importantly, mate with a vast majority of cartridges we hear about.It is a better match to a wider variety of these cartridges,than the 2.2(which ain't chopped liver).
I don't believe it is as sensitive as the "fussy" 2.2 is,when it comes to the damping fluid,though I like to use this extra degree of fussiness to actually voice my front end,a bit.
The arm is very "substantial" and the bearing is really robust,and the bass is "apparently" on the "BOLD" side.YMMV!The magna-glide feature really works,especially if you have alot of non flat records(a good vacuum table kinda negates this).
Actually there's not much to "not like" about it.The finish,btw,is every bit as good as the SME(I had two SME V's).
Most importantly,taking a look at pricing,it was not overdone,at the 3900 dollar asking price.I think this may have gone up,though,so you make that call.A really good phono cable is a MUST,here!
Best of luck,with your decision! |
BTW,Dougy...How can you assume I can appreciate and follow an analog waveform.Are you trying to make me jealous?I'll be lucky to hear a lousy CD,by the Holiday season,if I'm lucky!!
The only music I can play(these days),is on my "Walkman" at the gym!So if I do go my usual route of obnoxiousness,please cut me a small break.I'm hurting!
Also,STOP posting about your fabulous "super duper" new electronics,by "what's his name"!!
It only makes me envious! -:)
Best...."lucky dog"!! |
I use the Zyx UNIverse with the Graham Phantom.When you would like to see a pic, see my System.
Cheers |
Hi Ed,
If I had the time, I'd be evaluating the Phantom right now. Unfortunately, this is proving to be a busy Summer, and free time such as it were is booked for other projects. I'm hopeful that I can pick this up in the Fall.
Some on this list may think that because my tastes do not lean towards the 2.2, that I might not be interested in the Phantom.
There are two very potent reasons for me wanting to spend time with the Phantom.
1. The 2.2 is a joy to set up and tracks marvelously. I expect nothing less of the Phantom.
2. My experiences with the shift from my Teflon composite platter architecture to the TPI may very well parallel what Bob has learned about his tonearm designs.
With respect to item 2 above, the single minor criticism I had with my Teflon composite platters (and I do mean minor), is that in the wrong system, they could sound the slightest bit bright. To my ears however, their other virtues could not be ignored. The TPI top layer addresses this issue.
The general reports I've read about the Phantom would lead me to believe that there is some parallel progress being made in this area and I'm very interested in hearing the results.
Cheers,
Thom @ Galibier |
OK, I've decided and ordered a Phantom.
My bottom line reasoning was (a) it has the adjustment flexibility of the Triplanar, but the adjustments are easier to make, (b) its craftsmanship, fit and finish are up to SME standards, (c) I called Bob Graham and he told me that his personal TT is an SME 30/2 and he developed the Phantom on the 30/2 and on an available 20/2, causing me to reason that the Phantom should be at least as synergistic with the 20/2 as the SME V and probably even more so since it was developed more recently on SME's current TTs and with the current best cartridges, (d) the guy I bought the 20/2 from is replacing it with the Grand Prix Audio Monaco TT, an unsuspended design I believe, and he evaluated it with the following arms: Dynavector, Phantom, Triplanar & SME V, which finished in that order top to bottom, with the Universe, XV1S, top of the line Lyra, causing me to reason that the Phantom should work very well with the Galibier tables, a theory I hope is born out when Thom does find the time to evaluate the Phantom with his tables (so it should work equally well for me with Galibier), (e) Bob Graham put a lot of time and resources into developing a current state of the art arm so it should have bettered most if not all of the current top arms out there, (f) being among the latest designs-redesigns among the top arms makers, it should be around a while.
In other words, I've listened to the many excellent points made by each of you on this thread, and I think the Phantom satisfies more of those points than either the Triplanar or the SME V, at least for my purposes.
BTW, Bob Graham is a really nice guy, very approachable and easy to talk with and he's using a new bearing (Swiss-made, I think) with the Phantoms he's making now which he says surprised him at how much better it was than his initial bearing.
Next up, which cartridge with the 20/2 and Phantom?
Thanks and best to you all. I will keep you posted.
Ed |
I use the Zyx UNiverse on my Phantom, a real outstanding match. It's natural sound with the enormous power and speed from the Phantom is a real special experience. |
Hi Ed,
When you get into high-mass unsuspended turntables, the arm compatibility is reduced to a non-issue - at least from a mass perspective, because there is no resonant tuning to deal with a turntable's suspension.
This reduces the challenge such as it were to the non-trivial task of component matching - canceling colorations and such. The good news is that we're at the top tier of components and so the task becomes both easier and more difficult:
It's easier, because all of the tonearms under consideration control cartridge resonances quite well - to a greater or lesser extent. The interesting thing about this is that you'll discover different cartridges sounding paradoxically both more resolving and yet more alike. The reason for this is that as you mitigate a major source of coloration (resonance), resolution rises, and one major contributor to their sonic signatures is reduced.
Of course, it becomes more difficult as you hear more deeply into the rest of your system ... but that's why we play this crazy game.
The best news to come out of all of this is that as you tame resonances, you'll be listening to more of your record collection and not less.
This is the single most significant reason I see for going to extreme with your analog - to be able to listen to your dumpster RCA Dynagrooves. I regularly pull them out during a demo to show how a good analog rig expands your record collection.
A system that shunts you into playing only your best recordings is a system that is ultimately flawed.
Enjoy!
Thom @ Galibier |
Thom, interesting that you should mention Dynagrooves. I love flamenco guitar and jaleo. My favorite recorded performance of this music (in my collection) is by Juan Serrano and it's a Dynagroove! I bought it in 1967 (that certainly shows my age!) when I had my first post-college system - Garrard changer, shure cartridge, Revox 10" Reel to Reel tape recorder, Sansui receiver and very large Sansui speakers.
Yeah, I would like to hear tha LP sound better than ever!
Best,
Ed |
Hi Cipherjuris,
go for the Graham Phantom with SME mount.
It is a perfect TA.
regards
Karl-Heinz
ps: a ZYX Universe and a Kondo KSL |
I just purchased an SME 20/2 with a Phantom B-44 and added a Lyra Titan cartridge. Absolutely wonderfull sound. Got it from Brooks and he set it up just perfect. Happy listening. |
Thanks, everyone. Karl, I did go for the SME mount on the Phantom. Thanks Dabugman, I'm looking forward to mine. Must decide on a cartridge now.
I'm considering Dyanvector XV1S or Zyx Universe. I listen to a very wide range of music:
Classical 20% (collection of 50s & 60s Mercury Living Presence & RCA Living Stereo), Pop (mostly female singers) 20%, Current Rock & Classic Rock 20% (everything but Rap), Jazz 20%, Folk (American, Irish, Australian 20%
Recommendations?
Ed |
You can get a brand new Transfiguration Orpheus for $2650 (msrp $5000) Or a Transfiguration Temper V or W for $2100 (msrp $4000) and you'll have the same stellar performance IMO as the Dyna or ZYX (maybe better ;--) BTW, Transfiguration makes the Nightingale cartridge exclusively for the Graham Robin arm (I think it is) so if you've settled on a Phantom, there should be a lot of synergy there. Check w/ Graham. |
Nsgarsh,do you know what the "trade up" to an Orpheus would be if one has a perfect Transfig Temper -V?Obviously I would be interested at a future point(I can't even listen now,as my amp is down),but I have a friend with a "V",who could "GO" at any time.Thanks!
Best! |
Garsh, Speedy, I have no idea about trade-ins, since my "dealer" doesn't take trades. But you should have no trouble selling a W or a V on the Gon. Tranny cartridges seem to go very fast. I'd have to know a lot more about the Orpheus' design changes/improvements before I'd throw more money in that direction though. I think my Temper W is a pretty amazing device, both sonically and in terms of engineering elegance.
What you need to do right now is lease an amp from somebody ;--) |
SirSpeedy,
Why not just buy a used amp, here or on ebay, then sell it when the Rowland comes back? It would probably net out at virtually zero cost.
|
I will be comparing the Universe to the XV-1s in the next 2-3 weeks. I will post my impressions. I have been told the Universe is excellent on classical. The XV-1s can be had for near the price of the Trannys indicated above. |
Thanks all!The dealer I used in the past had a superb trade in on Tranny designs.So,this will be the way to go.
As to Doug,you make sense,but I think I'll keep my fingers crossed regarding my own amp.One reason is that I have added some interesting new mods,and an additional "line component" to my system,and don't want to "voice" to any parameters other than with my own amp in line.My friends think I was nuts,not to take a free loaner,but I did not think it would take so long.Apparently a problem with suppliers of particular parts.
BTW--when I heard the UNIV,it was fabulous on non classical stuff,as well as classical.I heard the XV-1s for a shorter period,and believe it could "do" any musical type too.It will be a matter of choice,but to "pigeon hole" a particular cartridge design into a specific musical category(when we are at this level) is wrong.
Best! |
.
Sirspeedy,
.
How about you contact Jeff Rowland and take him up on his offer for the "loaner" now and then you won't care how long it takes him to get your amp done?
.
Jeff might even send you an amp that is the equivalent of your amp or a level above yours.
.
Rgds,
Larry
. |
Cello,you are obviously right,and have the same sentiments as my friends.Thanks for the concern! -:)
In reality(and the real reason I have not made an overture to Rowland)I have been playing alot of tennis(coming to an end,due to infection),and also originally did NOT want to be an additional bother to Rowland.I TRULY did not think it would take this long,and have gotten used to my current situation.Supposedly my amp,as currently configured,will clearly outperform any current products.That's one reason for the delay,as certain "hard to get" parts must become available.At least,that is how I care to rationalize the whole thing!Though that's how it was explained to me.
Also,my dad has been ill,and I must go to Florida this weekend to aid my mom,so listening would take a back seat!
The things that are really important sort of puts the hobby in perspective.
Best! |
Hi Dgad,
Just be aware when you do the Universe/XV-1s comparison that your results could easily be reversed in different systems.
Are you aware of any of the system particulars that you can share at this time?
Cheers,
Thom @ Galibier |
Hey Speedy, I've got a classe amp that's currently collecting dust. Too bad it weighs 120lbs and Jersey is long ride from here. |
Dan,don't tempt me!I could always throw up that I saved you money,by being the first to recommend the Stylus pressure guage ,we ALL seemed to buy! |
Thom,
It will be in my system. It depends on the time I have. I can use the Schroder SQ or the Ikeda. |
Hi Dgad,
Frank Schröder suggests that the upper effective mass limit for a silver based ZYX (Airy / Universe) is 15 grams.
My experience points toward this being at the very top, with 11-12 grams giving you a bit more nimbleness.
The Dyna XV-1s does not seem to be as perturbed by a heavy mass tonearm such as my 18 gram ebony Schröder reference, but I prefer to run it with an arm in the 10-15 gram range.
Share your experiences with us when you do the evaluation.
CARTRIDGE LOADING
One rule of thumb I've found to work as a starting point is 5 times the DCR (DC resistance) of the cartridge's coils.
Somewhere between half of this number and double the number invariably seems to work.
All too frequently, you'll see loading recommendations that are as much a statement about the rest of the system as they are about the cartridge.
I. Universe: don't restrict yourself to the seemingly ubiquitous 7-9 ohms. I've recently been loading my Universe at about 18 ohms and plan on exploring even higher before reaching a conclusion.
If memory serves, the low o/p versions of the Airy and Universe cartridges have a DCR of 4 ohms.
So ...
5 times 4 ohms = 20 ohms.
II. XV-1s: somewhere between 35 ohms and 100 should work nicely. Start high and work down.
5 times 6 ohms = 30 ohms. You'll note Dynavector specifies "> 30 ohms" on their website.
Cheers,
Thom @ Galibier |
Thom,
I have my XV-1s loaded @ 500 ohms. I tried 100 originally but found 500 best. I also load most of my other cartridges @ 500 ohms including the Condor & the Eminent. I experimented w. all cartridges & found that the each one performed best @ 500 ohms. Can it at times be preamp specific. I plug in different resistors into my preamp. I have 100, 200, 500 & 100 & 47. Should I order more before the Universe gets here? I found the low loads to be closed in. |
Dgad,
The very low impedance values Thom is discussing assume the use of stepup transformers. When I used stepups I also used sub-100 ohm values, and found that great precision was necessary to optimize the performance of any LOMC.
FWIW, our new high gain phono stage + the .24mv UNIverse are happiest somewhere around 150-225 ohms. If I go any lower it sounds exactly as you described, closed in or muffled. Cello's Supratek Grange + UNIverse sounded best around 100-125 ohms, IIRC.
Assuming your phono stage doesn't include stepups, you might be fine at either 100 or 200. If those aren't optimal I'd bet on something in between.
|
Dougdeacon & Thom,
I guess you are referring to the resistive load on the Coil as opposed to the load. Correct me if I am wrong in describing it. I am using a battery powered solid state unit so I probably will load it @ 100 or 200. How long do you need for break in? |
Thanks for stepping in, Doug.
Also, note that the rule of parallel resistors applies, but in the case of two largely different resistor values (like 47K and 500 ohms), the net parallel resistance is for all intents and purposes that of the lower value resistor.
Cheers,
Thom @ Galibier |
Thom's right about dual paralleled resistors, which I did use extensively with my stepups. The math is easy though.
Dgad,
My MC phono stage is also solid state, so those numbers should put you in the same ballpark as me. (One possible difference is the native input impedance on the inputs. Mine is around 1500 ohms without any resistors, FWIW.)
If you're referring to break-in on the UNIverse, my experience (with four of them) is that they made most of their progress in the first 5-10 hours and changed very little after 20-25. They were bass- and dynamics-shy OOTB, but they opened up and then stabilized very quickly.
No other cartridge I've had broke in so quickly and easily. The Airy 2 needed 75+ hours to open up. OTOH, the Airy 3 needed 150+ hours to calm down. The Shelter 901 needed 300 hours before it stopped sounding like nails on a blackboard.
If you're asking about break-in on the resistors I have no idea. Considering the levels involved, it's probably decades!
|
.
Sirspeedy,
.
I hope things go well with your Dad...I will have you guys in my thoughts.
.
Rgds,
Larry
. |
Thanks Larry!Very nice sentiments,but having had the fortune of meeting you I am not surprised as to the consideration and concern.
Best! |
