Use some periods. I ran out of breath reading it. Regarding those who cry "snake oil", don't let them bother you. It will never change.
Snake oil, fraud, confirmation bias
It is becoming increasingly apparent that many threads about legitimate topics devolve into one or more of the contributors here making claims of snake oil, fraud, or confirmation bias thereby derailing the conversation beyond the valid and relevant thread topic and this is getting ridiculous. For anyone here who honestly holds the position that there is snake oil and fraud in the world of Music Reproduction Systems I challenge them to prove their claims in court it should be an easy task based on the claims they make here in Audiogon AND they will make a fortune because in the US once proven they can file a class action suit and profit enormously from the efforts of others to deceive. These people regularly claim that "there is no evidence" that things such as cables or fuses make a difference when in actual fact Audiogon is filled with evidence that these things make very real differences in
Music Reproduction Systems of course those who claim fraud reject that evidence as "confirmation bias" but in absence of any documentation from them they are only repeating the claim they have made so many times that has been refuted many times here by those who have demonstrated to there satisfaction that they make a difference. I think in actual truth the real fraudsters here are those that repeatedly make these claims of snake oil and fraud and often they have no experience to back up there claims they simply say the claims are impossible!
125 responses
randy-11: " sure post your address so I’ll know where to file " You get that through the legal process known commonly known as "discovery" you do not need an address to file or even a name and you can file in your own domicile because your are an "injured party" so just go right ahead and file that lawsuit don’t forget you’ll be wanting class action status you’ll need a lawyer to file this for you but because you have such abundant proof and are so confident I’m sure it won’t cost you a single penny because he will take it on whats known as ’contingency" so go right ahead don’t let anyone stop you!!! Also I would point out that asking people here for they're address is just creepy. |
As I see it, when divergent and highly polarized opinions are expressed about a subject, not only in audio but in most things in life, there is usually an element of truth in what is said on both sides. And the most correct bottom line is usually more nuanced than what tends to be expressed by those at opposite ends of the belief spectrum. Regards, -- Al |
Here we go. Clearthink failing to live up to his name once again. Foggythink would be more accurate. First of all, you clearly don't comprehend the process of discovery. You can't just go filing civil actions against unidentified parties. Discovery isn't the process of determining who the parties are. It's the process of determining the facts of the case. It's the obligation of the complainant to make possible service of notice and I've done it through process server and by publication. Generally for an established business service through publication is disallowed. In order to obtain service through publication you must demonstrated due diligence in seeking the respondent. Foggythink clearly knows nothing of legal procedure. Foggythink asserts there's some fortune to be made suing the snake oil scam artists. First, show my the lavishly wealthy snake oil scam artist. Fuses aren't that big a business and somebody needs to have riches in order for me to take them Next, show my the lavishly wealthy class action case beneficiary who's not a lawyer. Not many, are there? As usual, Foggythink is a bit weak on the facts of reality. |
in actual fact Audiogon is filled with evidence that these things make very real differences in Music Reproduction Systems Just hearsay, there is no "evidence" just what many of technically knowledgeable, believe is to be "expectation bias", after purchasers spend good money on what amounts to cheap snake oil product/s Cheers George. |
/\ Exactly @jl35 Not to sound elitist but I sometimes wonder if people are running systems that just aren't detailed or dynamic enough to hear changes in certain products like AC cords or upscale interconnects. The system I had 5 years ago probably would not have been good enough. I had a friend who works at a shop come over with a healthy bag of interconnects and we traded out cables on my turntable for an hour and a half. I had no preference on a particular brand and I wasn't even sure I needed a new one. But what I heard was pretty outrageous. Same with AC cables. I bought some thinking I would definitely return them and wound up buying the next tier product. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ |
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I don't think it takes a crazy expensive rig to hear differences in cables. They're very minor though regardless of the system. I just don't like the liars who tell some nube they hear the direction of their fuse. No, you don't. We'd all laugh at the guy who burns sage to ward off the demons that curse his amp, but it's not ok to laugh at the guy who's placing the same faith in similar hocus pocus like fuses or blue dots or rocks that work for the same reason; it plays on a fertile imagination. People making bold statements of fact like these clowns do is the reason we invented science and measurements. |
@oharchie +100 I agree with your statement 100%. The reason is, that i used to be one of those who could hear little to no difference , BUT then one day i bought an amp that was extremely revealing. After that i could hear big differences in all types of cables , whether it was power cords or Interconnects.etc. I think your statement is OH SO TRUE !!! The problem is that most of the Naysayers do not have revealing enough equipment to hear differences,BUT they have no idea that, that is the problem ! .I would be willing to bet money on it , because , i promise there is differences that can be heard !! |
Maybe an additional cables Agon forum might be the answer. Cables 2.0 or something or other. Here is how Audio Asylum handles it. It works. It works quite well. The Cable Asylum is for those who have decided that audio cables make a sonic difference. If you do not feel that audio cables do sound different, then do not post here. Posts that state that audio cables sound the same, or that all one needs is zip cord and/or dimestore coax, may be deleted, re-directed or other actions taken at the sole discretion of the moderators or the Bored. If you post more than one such post, you may be banned from the Cable Asylum. . |
@clear think First things first. Please invest into Anger Management. Not litigation. Lawyers are the only ones which will get the true benefit in a class action suit. Trust me. Been there and done that with the Federal Govt already.. its the American way. .. and yes, please check out that little dot under the L key. It’s a huge benefit for reading your flaming discourse in a more intelligent manner. You don’t even have to use the shift key to add it.. just find the L and push the key below it with the same finger you use to type your often aggressive exclamatory falderal. Remember, freedom of speech doesn’t mean you have the freedom to say anything to anyone. There are limits. You might want to look into what those limitations reference. = = = = = = RE Rocks? There are rocks that will help my system sound better? Where? How much? Is there a choice in colors? Exactly how big are these things? Do you put them in a blender with a cup of Snake oil set it to puree, and later sprinkle them on the wires? What?? Sounds very cool. Sort of like racing stripes on a car. Once applied, the carr is forever a race car. It will go much faster, right? Can’t wait! |
There’s no such thing as an audio emergency, and there is no such thing as offering a piece of audio equipment with intent to do audio harm that is litigatable. Can the color of a car do harm? Can cotton vs. wool vs. synthetic T-shirts do intentional harm? Can this be quantified? Some people like hard over eggs, I happen to like over easy with toast. Is one more harmful than the other by definition? Can we qualify or quantify with measuring equipment the flavor or textural experience of eggs cooked one way vs. another? Is scambling them a culinary abomination worth suing over? |
@jea48 I don’t think many here debate whether cables make some small difference. But fuses? Burning in cables? Burning in power outlets? Direction fuses and wires? That just is just bunk BS with zero basis in reality and purely the ego of the listener jacking off the mind. The people who buy into that nonsense are invariably clueless on technical matters. They view their equipment as pieces of mythical alchemy imbued with powers that transcending the laws of physics, and don’t tell me these people don’t because I’ve read their ramblings on here. Those around here with any kind of technical understanding know these people are crazy. We know the preeminent designers of the day pay no respect to the kinds of fantasies they entertain. It’s no surprise that they’ve adopted a vocabulary to disparage critics if their fantasies. Every religion needs a name for their adversaries. Infidel. Gentile. Heretic. Their's is "naysayer". They believe cables break in like others believe the world is flat. Reality doesn’t concern them because they don’t live in it. Foggythink has proven himself a stunning example of how truth and facts don’t impinge their opinions. |
@jea48 I like what AA does and feel it is time for Agon to do the same thing. The few that don’t want to add value to our cable discussions, but just angrily take cable threads off coarse should not be allowed to post on this subject. It is always the same few and often with unfortunate name calling and cyber wise cracks. It is predictable, boring, and often greatly harms the usefulness and civility of the thread. It is unfortunate that this extreme step is needed, but the actions of a few is driving long time posters away from this site and turning off many potential new active members. The reality is this is in fact happening. Audiogon can no longer ignore this reality. |
How about a 12 Angry Men forum. "But you said we could forget about all the other stuff." " It’s always difficult to keep personal prejudice out of a thing like this. And wherever you run into it, prejudice always obscures the truth." "You're not goin' to intimidate me - I'm *entitled* to my opinion!" "You can’t prove it!" |
The way I look at it is if you’re happy with the purchase then that is all the evidence needed. It’s none of my business how you spend your money. And vice versa. Hearing is a personal thing, nobody knows what others can hear or not hear and all the "evidence" in the world of measurements and double blind tests are meaningless. If you hear a difference in a fuse, God bless you and enjoy it. If you can’t hear the difference between components to justify the cost, there is nothing wrong with you -- so afford others that courtesy. |
Well, it seems like it's all of our business when somebody makes the choice to make their "evidence" a matter of public discussion. I'm not sure why people think they have the right to say dumb things in a public forum and not be challenged on them. Everybody sure is entitled to their opinion, including me, even it that means I think you're crazy. It's a two way street. If you don't like what somebody might think of your silly idea, it might not be a bad idea not to toss it out there. As the saying goes, it's better for people to think you're a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt. Rather than try to reduce the cable and tech talk forums to havens for snake oil believers, I think a dedicated snake oil forum would be best. "Snake Oil: The forum for beliefs that have no basis in the laws of physics" Granted, that would probably move the bulk of the content of those forums to the Snake Oil forum, but it would be really nice to have a place to talk about actual technology in a realistic and analytical way. That's my rub with the snake oil crowd. They accuse the "Naysayers" of disrupting their little powwows, but how many decently analytical discussions have they derailed with their bogus ideas of directional wires, magic rocks, burning in cables, and other silliness? I lurk a lot at diyaudio. What passes for tech talk over here would be an absolute laughing stock over there. What's more, you display a lack of understanding over there and you've got a crew of guys in just about every forum ready to school you with facts, figures, and formulas. These snake oil believers... They got NOTHING for facts. They lap up the ad copy jargon and mythical claims like gospel. They don't ask hard questions. They don't seek deep understanding. I built a simple amp. Good for me! Everybody should try building their own electronics if for no other reason than to learn and experience exactly what doing this or that to a piece of gear really does. I've thoroughly enjoyed dealing with and learning from the crowd over there. I am THRILLED to be able to ask a dumbish question and get an answer from Nelson Pass! I can't say I've actually seen any snake oil over there. It's interesting how an army of guys with soldering irons, scopes, and distortion analyzers deeply study what they're hearing until they know why they're hearing it. Not here though! "I hear it!" is the only evidence required. It's pathetic. |
Actually, the audio hobby in general and this forum in particular are not intended to be or set up to be a peer review of anything. Especially when many of the targets of tweakaphobe scorn and anger are quantum mechanical in nature or things that go BUMP in the night. The technology of many audiophile devices the last twenty years or so, including aftermarket fuses, is beyond whatever the average bear can remember from school. This is not the faculty of Harvard or the AES or the Journal of Physics. A peer review is by uh, peers. What we have here, my friends, are not (rpt not) peers. Let the wailing and hand wringing begin! Education is what’s left when you subtract everything you forgot from school. A sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. If thy eye offend thee cut it out. |
@geoffkait , I do not have any opinion one way or the other on fuse directionality. I do not have any personal experience listening to the direction of a fuse. Now that’s out of the way. I notice you never try to inject fuse directionality on the Cable Asylum. We both know in short order a Bored Member would chime in and tell you to take to another AA forum. Come to think of it, I haven’t seen a post of yours on the Cable Asylum for quite awhile. https://www.audioasylum.com/audio/cables/bbs.html . |
@kosst_amojan, You won't see geoffkait posting about fuse directionality on the Cable Asylum. You won't see a posted message asking do cables really sound different? Are cables just snake oil? Will I really hear a difference between ICs? Here is what you will see. https://www.audioasylum.com/audio/cables/bbs.html Those posting on the Cable Asylum already know they can hear a difference in cables. They are not going there to have someone try to change their minds telling them no you can't. |
jea48 @geoffkait , I do not have any opinion one way or the other on fuse directionality. I do not have any personal experience listening to the direction of a fuse. Now that’s out of the way. >>>>>>That’s weird. I thought everyone had an opinion on such a controversial topic. 😳 Have you checked for a pulse recently? jea48 I notice you never try to inject fuse directionality on the Cable Asylum. We both know in short order a Bored Member would chime in and tell you to take to another AA forum. >>>>Huh? With one or two exceptions, I never (rpt never) post on Cable Asylum. Wire directionality would probably be a worthwhile subject for Cable Asylum if you can stand the fierce region of the locals. I've almost never posted on Cable, not in all these years. I’m mean, come on, what would be the point? I’m not a masochist. I do post on General, Prophead and of course, Isolation Ward, which was set up specifically for your humble scribe and May Belt following the Intelligent Chip blow up about 12 years ago. My, how time files. I used to post primarily on Tweakers Asylum but obviously that forum is kind of dead. Oh, well, nothing last forever. 😢 jea48 Come to think of it, I haven’t seen a post of yours on the Cable Asylum for quite awhile. https://www.audioasylum.com/audio/cables/bbs.html >>>>There are reasons for everything. As I said, I almost never posted there. Case solved.😃 . |
clearthink
It is becoming increasingly apparent that many threads about legitimate topics devolve into one or more of the contributors here making claims of snake oil, fraud, or confirmation bias thereby derailing the conversation beyond the valid and relevant thread topic and this is getting ridiculous.When threads come off the rail such as this, one solution is to use the "report this" link and alert the moderator that the response is off-topic. There are some angry, self-righteous posters here and there's no need to allow them to prevent an otherwise productive conversation. |
hifiman5 said: @jea48 Why should Geoff or anyone else want to involve themselves with Audio Asylum? ugh. The format there is crazy! @ hifiman5, Hardly. 9524 posts. AA member geoffkait - Manufacturer, Machina Dynamicahttps://cgi.audioasylum.com/cgi/mail.mpl?user_ID=2678&f=general As for the format, it’s an acquired taste. https://www.audioasylum.com/audio/general/bbs.html At first I had trouble following posts until it finally started making sense to me. I prefer the classic format. . |
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@geoffkait, jea48 jea48 said: jea48 geoffkait response: >>>>>>That’s weird. I thought everyone had an opinion on such a controversial topic. 😳 Have you checked for a pulse recently? @geoffkait, No geoffkait, not everyone is obsessed with fuse directionality as you are. Just curious geoffkait, what personal listening experience do you have with fuse directionality? What piece of your audio system equipment did you find that made the biggest difference? . |
I see no legitimacy in a declarative, one sided, accusatory blast at what is perception and unsubstantiated guess work, wherein the OP wishes legal action is pursued aginst undeclared manufacturers for groundless ill defined harms. Sue them all for their possible claims for products may or may not have caused. Yeah. Good luck with that. As for debates on electronic goods and accessories, The only and apparently everlasting obstacle of contention remains the aspect of perception vs supposed sciences.. I’m good with which ever has more weight. More creedance. Most legitimate. I will however use what I have to determine either positions validity. My methodology is exactly the same as it is for anyone. Hearing and listening to the attributes of the item under examination. Viewing or understanding its esthetics. Fully realizing its actual financial impact. Establishing on a personal level a degree of quantification for the said thing’s performance vs price. That’s it. Nothing more or less. Just listening., looking and thinking. It is what 99% of humans do to make decisions on audio equipment. They walk into the showroom with possibly a copy of consumer reports, or some audio magazine under their arm and ask to see the yada yada thingy described in the mag’s article. They listen. Then usually, almost always ask what else is comparable I might have, and then I’ll show that to them. Which one do they always buy? Its always a coin toss. Always. Too many human conditions are in the mix. It ain’t all about the specs for the immense majority of the buying public. And it never will be solely about technical specs. Technical specs say a lot of important things. They say nothing about system synergy. Neither will they persuade someone to put themselves into harms way moneywise. Fairy dust or snake oil be damned. Those are the bullets the scientific camp shoots first. When push comes to shove, the weapons they use to buy with however is always the same thing everyone else uses. Sensibility and available funding. the only exception here is the same thing which drives much of upper range audio, and certainly this site and those like it. ego. |
