Sound Quality of red book CDs vs.streaming

Now going back and forth seams it varies depending on tracks I am comparing. Something new to drive myself nuts about.

Jumping in a bit late and admit I haven't read the bulk of the thread. Riddle me this. I am using a custom gaming pc as my source with an asus dsx soundcard outputing via AQ carbon coax spdif feeding a Bryston Bda 1 balanced out to a Krell Showcase then on to my Levinson 334 for stereo left right channels. Tidal sounds much more dynamic and better than my ripped local files that sit on a ssd. I am not even using hard wire networking I am using wifi. My Jriver is setup wasapi output and so on. This doesn't make sense.

question is why when your dac really should be taking care of the jitter (benchmark dac1)? Do you really need to add a reclocker?

Simply because they don’t do a good job of reclocking and the PLL in the typical reclocker still benefits from a low-jitter input.

You are much better off with a DAC that does not have a reclocker on the input.  I can make this sound amazing.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio

@missingtime where does the ethernet cable go? My Apple TV is ethernet hard wired (like it better than Airplay) - going into OPPO105 (to split the HDMI sound) - coax out from OPPO going into Benchmark DAC. How can I use a better ethernet cable? Will a better HDMI cable help too since the sound is really coming from HDMI source? 

Not trying to go off topic here - but as mentioned earlier @kalali to add a reclocker between chromecast and dac to reduce jitter - question is why when your dac really should be taking care of the jitter (benchmark dac1)? Do you really need to add a reclocker? 

@nycjlee

Thanks for the info. I went to their website to see if I could get more info and see a sign up tap stating

"Join the waitlist to become a US Beta tester" .....  Is that what you did?

I also have a friend (that uses an Aurender) in the US that ended up with a Qobuz account coded to the United Kingdom who can receive 24/96 but not full 24/192 resolution.

@ron17, I’m based in the US. My subscription is showing as Qobuz Studio in the Aurender. I’m on the 30 free trial, but it did say that if I don’t cancel, the subscription will continue after 30 days. I’m currently listening to John Coltrane’s Blue Train in it’s full 24/192 glory. I double checked the DAC to make sure :). Beautiful sounding. I’m sure as Qobuz gets closer and closer to the full launch, features will be released in advance. I'm a happy camper!  One thing to note is that since I'm using an Aurender to stream, the streaming options maybe different from the desktop beta released Qobuz app for windows/mac.  In my Aurender, I see an option choice for HiRes - 24bits / up to 192kHz and that's what I have selected.   

Invest in a good streaming device / DAC, subscribe to Tidal and ensure following steps,

1. Never use WIFI for streaming music content to your network player,
2. Limit network traffic when playing an online stream,
3. Use software optimized for sound quality,
4. Use high-end network adapter & switch,
5. Upgrade your router,
6. Replace generic ethernet patch cords with audio grade LAN cables.

I agree with all, except for the WIFI.  My WIFI adapter sounds identical to wired.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio

@nycjlee

I too have been looking forward to the release of Qobuz in the US but was told recently that the full release (including 24/192 resolution) would be delayed another month or two.  Are you in the US, and are you using the trial version?  

👍

I was able to stream in full 24bit/192kHz. That’s what what was showing on my DAC. :)

@nycjlee,

Well said, it all starts with a good source!

Are you able to stream Qobuz in 24bit/192kHz resolution? I tried the free trial that limits you to hear files in 24bit/96kHz resolution, which is quite good. And yes, from what I heard Qobuz streaming is a step forward than Tidal.

I can’t wait to try Qobuz in it’s full glory.

Those of you guys using Tidal as a reference to compare streaming to CDs, there is hope.  Spent last night comparing Qobuz to Tidal and Qobuz gets you so much closer to CD sound than Tidal ever did.  In my system, I use to think it was the streamer or cables that wasn’t up to par but it’s looks like it was always the music data source. At else in my system Qobuz via an Aurender N100h sounds better than CDs playing through my CDP transport.  I will be switching over to Qobuz. 

I continue to see negative posts about how streaming quality is not on par with CD resolution. Please don’t expect to be wowed by plug n play devices (like Chromecast) and streaming providers that don’t offer CD resolution, case in point Pandora and Spotify. As one of the member pointed out, this kind of setup is good enough for parties not for serious listening experience.

Invest in a good streaming device / DAC, subscribe to Tidal and ensure following steps,

1. Never use WIFI for streaming music content to your network player,
2. Limit network traffic when playing an online stream,
3. Use software optimized for sound quality,
4. Use high-end network adapter & switch,
5. Upgrade your router,
6. Replace generic ethernet patch cords with audio grade LAN cables.

I can say unequivocally streaming in my system has surpassed all of my expectations and I enjoy streaming just as much as spinning my CD/SACD’s collection.

I'd rather listen to my red book ripped flacs than to Pandora or some such IMO.

rvpiano
finally going to complete my system. I enjoyed an audition with Pass Labs X-150.8 power amp earlier this week.  Considering cabling and pre-amp options now.  I will keep you posted.  Happy Listening!

I don’t listen to a whole selection as much while streaming as I do with a CD or record.

@rvpiano, did you listen to CD's and vinyl recordings in their entirety? If so I wonder i you do the same while streaming. One of the things I like about CD's and vinyl is that when I put one on, I always listen to the entire record. 

As I said to a friend recently, the world of music open to you through streaming is akin to the era of free sex in the sixties and seventies prior to AIDS.

Even though they sound better!

Whoever said once you start streaming you’ll never go back, was right.
 I hardly play CDs or records anymore, unfortunately.

jafant,

Thanks for asking.  Aside from the new Arcam streamer which Is a big improvement over Chromecast, I’m getting a new power cable for my DAC and new speaker cables from Morrow.
Interestingly, now that I have been extensively streaming, I have gone back to my original assessment that, on my system,  CDs sound better: more detail and life.

How about you?  Any new stuff?

rvpiano
any new gear headed your way in 2019?  Happy Listening!

I have been demonstrating the difference in formats at trade shows for years. My equipment has always been resolving enough to easily hear the differences, even USB. I even hear a difference in AIFF and uncompressed FLAC compared to .wav.

If you are using UPnP, then you should try Linn Kinsky and Minimserver with BubbleUPnP as proxy server, if you are not already using these.

Also, here are some killer tweaks to make Ethernet sound stellar:

1) AQVOX switch
2) 0.5m Wireworld Platinum Etherenet cable
3) EMO EN-70e isolator
4) 1.5-2.0m Wireworld Platinum Ethernet cable

Steve N.
Empirical Audio

After a couple of years with Tidal's and/or Deezer's premium tiers I went back to Spotify for casual listening. Like others here I've found the streaming services just don't measure up to my own library of ripped/downloaded files. I'm perfectly satisfied with this, Spotify has a terrific catalog and is a great way to discover music I'm interested in owning. I also enjoy Pandora and some internet radio streams.

@audioengr .. for quite some time I've read your posts about using WAV vs. everything else and was an unbeliever. I recently moved to a UPnP/ethernet renderer based audio solution and now understand. FWIW I only tried WAV out of frustration with UPnP, which seemed to stumble a bit with my uncompressed flac files. A suggestion was made to try WAV instead of flac and not only did it behave better but also sounded better to my ears. (Not trying to start a war here guys .. just my very subjective and non-double blind listening experience. YMMV.)

“streaming is fine for casual listening” 

@foxyrjd,

Do you mind sharing your steaming and  vinyl setup? 

I agree. I only use streaming for parties etc. Most of my listening is using Ethernet renderer with tracks spooled from locally stored .wav files. Beats any CD or SACD player. Much lower jitter possible.

Steve N
Empirical Audio

Happy new year: I have been using a Berkeley Audio Alpha 2 Reference w/ MQA, spinning CD's on an Esoteric PO3 Transport w/ Shunyata Alpha digital AES/EBU. Jeff Rowland Chorus/PSU to twin Rowland 625's/Revel Salon 2 speakers. I love the system and prefer it sonically to Digital (borrowed a DCS Vivaldi to listen.) I think a very good system is as good as a digital file of equal quality. Certainly no reason to ditch a transport or  such.

Your thread is where many people are interested in. There is still too much what is unknown.

The thing I love most about now is that there are options of which we only could dream of in the past.

On the other hand is that still most audio products will never make people happy for over a longer period of time. Because our emotion cannot be fooled.

So when products cannot reveal all the different apects/properties of sound it is impossible to become and stay happy with it.

Streaming can be stunning and really great. But you are still independent of too many different aspects.

When I judge the quality of recordings of the biggest music stars in the world, often these recordings are limited. I am even sure that these artists have no idea how limited their recordings are.

I found and bought music of artists who only have a few thousand hits on Youtube. But their recordings are really stunning. It proofs that it is not about money what the issue is when a recording is limited.

In the 20 years that I work in this business I have tried many times to bring people together. But the world in audio is sick like the fact that the whole world is sick. I was dissapointed when people reacted very hard and where not interested in working together.

At the end we humans are the ones who limit us self over and over again. Because we think that we can do it all by ourselves. In those 20 years I work in this busienss I made big steps thanks to all those different specialists in many areas. Together you will always be so much stronger.

I wish you all a great and happy 2019.

Thanks!

I owned the best and most expensive cd-players in the world. And when I wanted to start with streaming in 2012 I was stunned that over 99% of all streaming products were all useless.

Now in 2018 in our world over 99% of all streaming products are still useless. We understand that many people still use turntables and cd-players. Because most digital sources and dacs are all very limited in quality.

The whole world in audio sells products. We create sound and vision. And that is a totally different world what is the opposite of the trial and error world.

We work with all our dedication, drive, effort, insight and knowledge to create sound. That brings people so much closer or how music and instruments sounds.

We are a Lumin specialsit and go into details further than any other Lumin dealer. Each single human being can sell a Lumin out of a box. We know the full DNA of each single Lumin product.

This makes us able to reach and use the full potential of each Lumin product. We often send new clients to shops to make them understand that how different the same Lumin sounds in our Tru-Fi world vs the limited trial and error world.

The best will always win, and this is what we create. The sound will always tell the truth. And people will always choose what is superior to the rest. That is how simple it is!

We created the AudioFacts Pro modification for the Lumin D1/D2/T1.

The D1/D2 and T1 own the same dac as the Lumin A1. But the A1 uses better capacitors and other parts. So we created a modification with superior capacitors and parts what now outperforms the Lumin A1 on all the different aspects/properties of sound.

The D1/D2/T1 with AudioFacts Pro modification comes very close to the level of the Lumin S1. We compared it with many expensive dacs and other streamers. And it was no match.

The thing I love most of audio is shootout and comparing. A born perfectionist always wants to win and ouperfrom each individual competitor. This is how I was born. It is my goal to proof that I can outperform each person in the world in stereo, surround and in vision.

I think and work by Tru-Fi. This means that we create both sound&vision on all the aspects/properties it owns. Because this brings us so much closer to how sound and vision sounds and looks like in real.

A bron perfectionist has only one goal. To create the best result and quality possible. There is no other option. Streaming is just for hun and using and creating modified drives and powersupplies is the holy grail.

Music is all about emotion. And we are only interested in creating emotion in everything we create and sell.

@bo1972 
Thanks for your insights, could you clarify one thing, you say above you prefer player/dac rather than separates yet you recommend Lumen L1. So do you recommend Lumen D2 player or L1 plus dac? 
Thanks! 

I have just tesyed my cd copies of dave brubeck qiartet "take 5" (columbia) and "what's new" (telarc), and "late night bruneck" (telarc) against spotify and tidal.
Results are always consistent.... Cd is either clearly better, or auguably better.
Always clearly better than tidal who pretends hifi, and arguably better (sometimes just not) than spotify who pretends mp3, which i despise.
I just got a deal with tidal, basically 3 months for free, and i am floored by how inconsistent the service is compared to spotify.  With spotify, you know what you 're paying for and you end up surprised sometimes.
With tidal, you don't get what you are paying for, and sometimes, you feel it is worth something.
In other words, spotify delivers on the promise 100% of the time and more, wheras tidal sporadically does... A little bit like buying CDs before you can listen to them somehow.

Dear Geoff,

I really like all your comments. Nice to see there are more people who understand it.

An audiosystem cannot create emotion by it self. The emotion is inside the music. That is why you need an audiossystem what can reveal all the details and aspects/properties of the recording. This has nothing to do  with a personal taste. But is 100% based on facts.

All the different aspects of sound can influence our emotion. And again we are talking about facts. So you need all the aspects/properties of the music to experience all the emotion the music possesses. There is no other way to feel all the emotion of the music.

That is why Hi-res does not garantee you anything. There are also many poor DSD and MQA recordings as well.

You can get the best version with the highest DR if you feed the Artist and Album name, in to this, and 8 x out of 10 it’s the earlier releases that have the highest constant DR.
Click on the one with the highest DR, get the cat no. and go buy the cd for $2 s/h on ebay, forget the re-mastered or downloaded that’s always a flip of the coin if it’s compressed of not.

This Supertramp is not typical, but gives you an idea, what version to look for.
http://dr.loudness-war.info/album/list?artist=Supertramp&album=Crime+of+the+century

Cheers George

Humans have a different taste in music. But......our emotion works almost the same way regarding music and sound. And no....you cannot fool your emotion.

The reason why many people are not satisfied with their system is based on their emotion. When you listen to your system and it lacks involvement. Your emotion tells you that it does not get stimulated enough by your system.

Most people (and even I believed in it untill 2016 based on assumptions) believe that audio and sound is a matter of personal taste. Tru-Fi proofs (we will make videos of the people who own a Tru-Fi system who now understand that trial and error cannot create a more emotional and personal system) that sound is not based on personal taste.

Tru-Fi proofs that each single human being prefers any audiosystem what can reveal all the aspects/properties of sound over any incomplete trial and error system. I understand that this is difficult to comprehend. When you listen to a Tru-Fi system you will understand it. We see that all new clients now believe that sound is not based on personal taste.

Almost no human being will prefer an incomplete audio system over any system what can reveal all the different aspects/properties of sound. Because this is how your and my emotion works.

Tru-Fi will change your thoughts about audio. We see it by all new clients. Tru-Fi will create a new truth!

Just for the record (no pun intended) the pleasure center of the brain 🧠 🕺🏻could not care less whether the sound is coming from speakers or headphones. Once the sound gets into the ear canal everything is up for grabs. Music soothes the savage breast. Fake music doesn’t cut it. A lotta times sound from speakers or headphones doesn’t pass muster. You can’t fool Mother Nature.

Most people believe (based on assumptions) that a separate dac is better than an inbuild one. In our world the facts what we can hear only counts.

We have proven many times that a source with an inbuild dac easily ouperforms a separate dac. Our modified sources always win and outperform each single shootout against a dac and drive.

People have often no idea how much they loose by the choice of a separate dac. Even the most expensive dacs with upsampler had the same limitations as the cheaper dacs.

Often the level in diversity (layering) is limited. When we use one of our modified sources it often makes the dacs and drives sound like dinky toys. Because it is not even a fair competition.

Our sources are superior in all the aspects/properties of sound. The most important one is the diversity (layering) in sound. And in this part the differences are the biggest.

I know since 2 years that diversity in sound is the most important aspect/property of sound. So it made us spend the most time on this property in the last 2 years. Our modifications are being created on all aspects/properties of sound. But we did put more focus on this part. And also regarding all our other modifications.

This is why it makes it so easy for us to outperfrom all separate dacs during a shootout. We also win in resolution and in dynamics. The other limitation almost all dacs have is the fact that they are not able to reveal all the different aspects/properties of sound.

In a Tru-Fi system it is very easy to explain to each person which aspects/properties their dac or source misses. We often feel sorry for new clients. They never bought the best student of it’s class. We will always own the best student in each price range. So there is no competition. We know the outcome even before they visit us.

I have to admit that it is a lot more easy to create a superior level with a source with an inbuild dac. So far we never had a shootout of a separate dac what outperformed one of our modified sources.

Acoustic Sounds only sells DSD 64 recordings. I bought different recordings I already owned in DSD 64 at a higher DSD level. And this makes sense.

I love superiority in music and in audio products. The best is always a lot nicer than less. It gives the music often a totally different experience when the level of the recording is higher.

I did compare the same music at the same format and quality from different websites. Even here you find differences.

HDtracks also gives you different freq. sample rates. But often the music is only avaliable at one sample rate.

The same music I bought from Qobuz was often a lot better the same music from HDtracks.

Even the same music I bought from Qobuz was almost in all situations better than the ripped music of the same album. In my world the best quality always counts. And all the rest have no meaning at all.

Audioengr,

My question is do the streaming companies buy the tracks from the record companies directly, and if they do is it via hard drive transfer or software?
Or is there a distributor (middle man?)

@rvpiano-re the question of master tapes as a source, my impression is that most of the majors will not let the master tape out of the door, and usually supply a flat transfer on hi-rez. There are of course exceptions- the "audiophile labels" like Acoustic Sounds and a few others (Classic, ORG, MoFi in some cases) do get access to the tapes, probably because of long working relationships with the labels. For digital streaming, I suspect that if the end product is a digital file, there is even less likelihood that a master tape was used as a source, and which master? A safety? A copy made for a particular market may sound different than another. It’s the stuff that keeps record hounds searching, comparing notes and pressings. I don’t know the answer as it applies to streaming, which was one of my questions earlier in this thread- whether the streaming platforms identify the source and mastering.
What I wrote above really applies to older recordings where tape was the medium. If you are a Steve Wilson fan, you’ll know that he remixes a lot of this stuff (mainly prog rock) in the digital domain using the multitracks and eschews ’mastering’ as such, believing that his mixes are the final product without more EQ (apart from what may be necessary to meet an RIAA curve for the LP releases). Some of that stuff is pretty good if you are a fan of this type of music.

Dear geoffkait,

you are 100% right and I have the same experiences. That is why Hi-res does not garantee you anything. There are also many poor DSD and MQA recordings as well.

No format can ever garantee you anything. It costs me a lot of time to find good new music and in a good quality. That is why I spend 3-4 hours each single week. There is no other way to find it.

Has anyone else noticed that quite a few hi res downloads are aggressively compressed? It seems inescapable, even SACDs, and Japanese SHD CDs and Blu Ray. I mean, what’s the point?