Is anyone else getting the joke, or is Geoff just laughing at himself? |
What do I use in my Pass F5 clone? Bussmann. They sell them in 6 packs at AutoZone. They work great. They blow very consistently if I fumble with the power switch wrong. $50 for a fuse? I don't think so! |
@geoffkait
I put them in the long way. It's the only way they fit. Nelson seemed to like my amp. He called me a "fearless amp builder" for my going with 34.5V rails and removing the current limiting. In fact, my build is a full 50% more powerful than the First Watt version. Why would I try to hunt down a very rare amp when I can build as many as I want any way I please? |
Exactly. I want to make improvements that make differences big enough to measure. I can clearly tell the difference when one side of my amp is making more second order distortion than the other by a couple hundredths of a percent. If the improvement can't even be measured in the thousandths of a percent you're buying snake oil and the money is better spent elsewhere. |
@wolf_garcia
You forgot about Geoffkait's magic directional cables! Glad to see someone else calling him out for exactly what he is. |
@nonoise
If a fuse in a signal path is truly that weak link and manipulates the sound, wouldn't a more eloquent solution such as a relay be more appropriate? Someone designing a piece of gear selling for several thousand dollars can't pony up for a $3 relay? Or better yet, ¢10 for a BJT to bleed to ground? |
If they make a difference, it's small. And I also think it's safe to say if they make a difference you're power supply is poorly designed. My F5 uses an IEC/switch/fuse module with an RLC network to filter HF. That feeds the toroidal through 2 CL60 thermisters for in rush current limiting. The power is rectified to 34.5V +/-, then feeds an RC filter bank of 120,000uF. It's very effective. A fuse is completely inconsequential in the larger scheme of things. |
If a resonating fuse effects your amp it's a piece of garbage with a very poorly designed power supply. |
Show me the measurements. |
@geoffkait
Just as I expected. Smartass remarks. Absolutely zero wit or substance. |
What phenomenon exactly can’t science measure? |
Yeah, but it's fun to poke and ridicule people who ask if they tried reversing the fuse! It's like tormenting a retarded child with none of the guilt! |
@nonoise
Yeah, it is funny, and I'm getting a lot of laughs out of geoffkait and auxinput saying the silly things they do. "Completely unlistenable"!?!? Because of a fuse??? Do you know how ridiculous that sounds? If the difference is that obvious you can measure it, so show me the measurements! I keep asking and I'm still waiting. Still waiting to hear about that phenomenon we can't measure too.
::crickets::
I mean, after all, we're measuring the gravity waves of black holes colliding half way across the universe these days. But we can't measure a freaking fuse? Some of you take the subjective listening concept entirely out of context. All subjective listening quality means is that it doesn't have to measure great to sound great, but there is ALWAYS a measurable reason why something sounds like it does. |
@geoffkait
Ooooowww! Eloquent retort!
Still waiting for those measurements. |
@geoffkait
It is widely understood that quantum mechanics has never made a prediction about the nature of reality that has disagreed with observation. Nobody with any familiarity with quantum mechanics or general and special relativity would make the statements you make. If you want good primers on the physics of consciousness and the nature of perception I suggest digging into Evan Harris Walker and Antonio Damasio. |
@nonoise
At least you tried to spell my nick right. I’m nowhere near saying all cables or amps sound the same. I’m once again balancing the distortion character on the F5 I built and I know that thing sounds different than other amps. It’ll sound different today than it did yesterday when I’m done with it. Cables? Yep, those sound different too, in an extremely nuanced way. Just like building the amp, I built cables to see what differences I could notice. I actually surprised myself there. I A/B’d both channels to make sure I was hearing what I was hearing. There was a noticable difference, but hardly a "completely unlistenable" difference like Auxinput claims a tiny little fuse in the power supply makes. I’m more than happy to try different things out. I’ll probably drop a dual mono power supply in the F5 at some point to hear the difference. I’ll probably build other amps and pre-amps. I’d like to build better cables. Fuses? Sorry. Auxinput is just lying when he says it made a 3dB difference. There’s no physical phenomenon in the universe that would explain that and that’s a difference easily measured. If the differences were that obvious that would be a big issue. There are so many other things to be tweaked and manipulated before worrying about something like a fuse. Things you can actually measure. I’m reading the posts here of people that couldn’t even tell me how well their active devices are paired, or how they’re being manipulated by degeneration or feedback, or how high they’re biased, but they’re fretting over a fuse. The signal path resistors make much bigger differences. Where’s all the threads debating those? Fuses are the playground for those who lack the understanding of what’s inside the box. |
Wrong, Auxinput. CD audio signals are signed meaning you get 8 bits positive and 8 negative, at least according to the red book spec. Because it's signed, it's an AC wave form, even if it is a square wave form.
@geoffkait
There you go again spouting meaningless platitudes. Nothing in this hobby defies the laws of physics. Plenty of people are skeptical of things that don't actually exist. I like those people. I get worried when I'm around people hearing things that can't possibly exist.
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Still waiting for your measurements, Gee-offKate.
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This is a running joke, right? |
Thankfully it is free! I probably wouldn't ridicule such silliness if I had to pay a dime to do it. Are these fuse fans going to start obsessing over the choice of solder? What about those aluminum legs on their transistors? Did somebody check to see if the circuit board traces are directional? Said it before and I'll say it again. If a fuse has any noticable impact on sound your amp is a pile of garbage. |
If you're hearing things that only exist in your head, I'm pretty sure the DSM has a diagnosis for that. Like it or not, we can measure damn near anything.
But I'll say it again...
If your amp is effected by a fuse, your amp truly sucks. If the power supply cannot soak up such a minor variance among the much more measurable perturbations, it's simply not doing its job and is extremely poorly designed. If you want to know why high end amps don't come packaged with snake oil, that's why. They believe in the ability of their design to be immune to such insignificant things.
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It's only rhetorical because you don't want to acknowledge the answer.
All these attributes you describe do have measurement signatures. You can design to those measurements and achieve those attributes and designers do it all the time. That's why Wilson, B&W, Focal, Pass, Boulder, McIntosh, and myriad other brand's products have a certain signature sound to them. So yeah, you can measure all those attributes to a good degree. Nothing sounds sweet or warm if it doesn't exhibit the measurements of those characteristics. You folks who think measurements are completely unrelated to the sound are in wild juxtaposition to reality and the people who design this stuff. Go learn some stuff. |
Not really. I'm just asking somebody to prove it and I get stuff like "Morphic fields" for answers. |
@geoffkait
Yeah... All that mid-fi like the brands I mentioned.
Funny thing. Last night I was reading up on the F6 and Nelson pointed out that each unit is meticulously MEASURED to insure every unit sounds the same. We all know how mid-fi Pass designs are, don't we? I like how you cherry picked one phrase to mischaracterize a broader point but ignored everything else you lack the fortitude to address. You're good at that. You didn't understand the meaning of my words and sentences, did you? That's a pretty torpid list of measurements too. If that's all you're measuring the end result probably would be anybody's guess.
You're rebuttal to my post should have been obvious. Simply point out what characteristics evade a measurement signature. But you can't do that. Just rhetoric and left-handed insults. |
@geoffkait
God... You just make things up all the time. The special thing about hospital grade outlets has nothing to do with the grip force. The unique feature of hospital outlets is that they are explosion-proof GFI outlets. You can't have sparking interrupt circuits in the presence of oxygen and highly flammable gaseous anesthetics. |
What exactly is that snake oil supposed to do aside from not even being possible in my F5 or risking jamming the fuse? |
I can't believe I'm reading somebody deriding engineers for being obsessed with good circuits and not considering snake oil enough. Should Pass Labs and Boulder hire snake oil specialists to give their gear the real audiophile authenticity? |
I don't see any middle schoolers. |
Oh.... So we should hold off on bullying until the middle schoolers arrive? |
Ya know, if fuses did make any difference engineers would use relays and breakers. The fact a few makers choose to pander to snake oilers it's proof. |
Hate to break it to y'all, but what you think you're hearing IS pure belief and NOT proof in the slightest. Such a semantically obvious fact illustrates how deeply confused you people are about the difference between belief and facts.
@mrdecibel
I've never seen any hobby embrace snake oil like this one! Not even close! The faith people here place in various tweaks that do nothing can only be compared to the powers the superstitious attribute to magic talismans. It's crazy.
@wolf_garcia
I buy my F5's fuses at AutoZone. I highly recommend them. They have a sweetness and speed in the highs and deep, meaty rumble in the bass. And... They're like 25¢ a piece so you can buy tons of them! |
I just don't like liars. And that's pretty much what I see here. How real something sounds isn't a question of opinion. It's a matter of measurable fact. How closely does the reproduced wave form resemble the original? Putting footers under your pre-amp or fancy fuses in it doesn't change that. It only changes what you think you hear. That's not scientific. That's psychiatric. If all that matters is what you think you hear in your head, why not try a Sanyo clock radio and a pile of mushrooms? It's much cheaper than HiFi and you're in a much better position to will your mind into hearing anything you want.
Faith based tweaks like fuses and magic rocks only work when the listener has unwavering faith in them. Most of us are too skeptical to buy any old lie told to us. Some not only buy the lie, they run with it and expand on it regardless of the truth to the contrary. It reminds me of watching the 9/11 conspiracy theorists evolve their story. This is like debating flat earthers. I'm wondering how many of you have magnets on your fuel lines to polarize the gas molecules.
Now please continue with your regularly scheduled ranting. |
Me no understand broken English.
@pbnaudio
You got it! And as we all should know, snake oil is quite flammable. |
I don't know why I keep doing it. It's like some weird compulsion. Maybe my life doesn't have enough fantasy and fiction. I should probably go back to reading Dune. Honestly, I'm really curious why people believe in things that don't exist. |
@mrdecibel
Improper use, of a, comma....
Kinda silly to ridicule a guy for having his mom over to enjoy something, don't you think? Does that make you feel big and important?
And yes, I did listen to them before I bought them. I love they way they sound. And incidentally, they measure very well, too! |
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Not sure what provoked all the personal insults and attacks, but I'm not dealing with it.
I've made this point before, but I'll make it again. Anything that can be heard can be measured. I don't understand why some of you think that there are some characteristics in audio that don't have a measurement signature, but that isn't the case. You people attribute qualities to a fuse that most definitely would reveal themselves through a spectrum analyzer. But they don't. One can only conclude that's because it makes no difference at all. |
Geoff did just lie though. Now I'll challenge him to show me this proof and there won't be any. Watch.... |
@mrdecibel
Not so much. I believe in doing things that actually make a difference. Stuff like better thermal coupling of outputs to their sinks, bias adjustments, wire routing and architecture, and circuit balance. That's stuff that actually makes a difference. |
Oh yes it most definitely can. When I do tweak something like those things I listen very carefully to better understand what those measurable changes mean in terms of listening. My goal is to develop a good understanding of technical performance as it relates to listening so that I can make educated choices about future modifications and upgrades. You guys like to rag me about my adherence to measurements, but I don't even try to achieve the most impressive measurements. I don't think perfect measurements sound good. |
The reason you can't measure feet and springs is the same reason you can't measure the difference a fuse makes. It's because it makes no difference. Those who claim it does bare the obligation to prove it and so far there's no proof. It's just your mind telling you that expensive must sound better so you hear it. |
@cleeds
Then don't get upset when somebody calls you a liar for passing opinion as fact when you can't back it up.
@joecasey
Geoff down there is right. Two amps with identical measurements will sounds exactly the same. In manufacturing that's called quality control. |
No. I've contended many times that fuses might make a difference in amps with less than robust power supplies that are more prone to minor variations. It looks like rodman up there pointed to a great example of what I'm talking about. |
That's what you're impressed with? Did you even read the specs on that stuff? I'm looking at the Stratos Mono. They claim 120 amp current delivery. Through 6.3 amp fuses? With a 400VA transformer? Not for very long if at all! To sustain the kind of current output would mean rail voltages sagging to 3.2V. He's calling it out as 180 watts into 8 ohm. That suggests he's running 32V secondaries off the transformer for rectified 40V rails. That figures out to 4.74 amp. To keep the 6.3 amp fuses from popping at 2 ohm means it'll only put 79 watts on the outputs.
Here's the bottom line. That amp is built to a budget, most obviously. It couldn't have cost much more that $500-600 to build. It seems to me to be pretty ridiculous to spend 10-20% of the build budget on fuses when that same money would buy a much larger transformer which would make a vastly more meaningful difference. It's very likely that the fuses make a difference because that's the exact kind of anemic power supply that would be prone to minor perturbations. I know I've said this many times before.
For comparison, my little home brew amp is 31wpc and has a 600VA toroidal with 24V secondaries for 32V DC and it will drive 300 watts into a 2 ohm load without a hiccup. |
