"Audio on the cheap' site. YUP! I just bought a pile of Pangea AC14XL BECAUSE THEY ARE ON SALE..
Particularly exciting was the sale prices are 'reasonable' cost instead of the
staggered
crazy regular price. I had wanted some 4m LX but balked at the odd overcharge for it. With the sale they were 33% off. Sine the have pure copper plugs, I thought yeah go with my pure copper duplex!
I would not recommend the AC14XL for amplifiers though.
I just moved my Amp power cord from the dedicated Furutech GTX-D NCF Rhodium outlet to it's partner, a Furtech GTC-D Gold duplex to change the sound. It changed. I am certain this fact could melt nonbelievers brains into puddles. Except they are so certain I am hallucinating..... and they are not. sadly for them, they are wrong on both counts.
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Why does a powercord affect the sound?
My completely made up theory.. All my own, no proof, just conjecture...
The power wave has a shape, a ’volume’ and it can be focused or spread out.. fuzzy, tight, sloppy, scrambled, coherent, THICK or THIN. All these ways the waveform is changed affect the way the equipment can use the power, for better or worse.
Now those words I used are naturally a way of describing things that, currently (pun) have no names in AC current (pun) delivery.
And naturally all this is IN MY HEAD, and no effort has been made to verify such stuff. Maybe though, someday....
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Yes, that mythical Universe where Unicorns and EE types live. Where the only real true reality is impedance, resistance, conductance.
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The ways I would describe what the power cords have happening inside do not correlate with any current rules about power.
My experience leads me to think power cords are affecting the thickness of the AC waveform. How coherent it is (ie is it fuzzy? or tight?) And this can be in multiple dimensions...As the way the wave is shown in '3D' is as a point moving steadily ahead as it rotates around a circumference..
Particularly the thick thin bit... the fuzzy clean...
What words in EE lore correlate?
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And we again hear from the man on a unicorn... fighting the good fight to save his orderly mind from the chaos of the REAL WORLD.
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The Dakinis who dance in powered wires like better power cords. So they do a better dance than on the cheap Romex or cheap power cord. Their dance is the flow of the electricity, in other universe dimensions, so THAT is the actual reason. Some folks call them the Fairies..
When you first install new cords, it takes time for them to find the new thing, and learn the exact dance best for it. And when you move it, they find it faster, but still take a little time to establish the best dance...This explanation is not for everyone. But everyone takes part anyway.
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Good point from the op about how careful a listener is the person responding?
I listen to music all the time... Yet I KNOW for a fact when I am sitting in front of the system listening while online, my attention to the music is sharply curtailed. Yes it is on, I can hear melodies, notes, the basic plot.., but the fine details... no. I am not paying enough attention, my attention is seriously divided.
Plus having to be in the mood to totally devote full attention to the music. Then having a good memory of what the piece sounded like in the past. Otherwise there is no 'comparison'. just what it sounds like now.
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n80. I am 'lucky, or cursed as may be.. that my system is really on a knife edge of clarity vs lean sounding. So for years (even before I bought the 20.7 Magnepans, same thing with the 3.6 Magnepans) So for years I have deliberately balanced this on my quest for more clarity. So I do something to gain in the clarity, but usually this also loses some fullness in the midrange and I have to get that back, without losing the clarity gain. (I have done this many times) So my listening to this particular oddity of my system is highly honed and shaped by experience. So this basic thing I can spot immediately with any cord change. or even different LP or CD mastering!
For example right now the sound is a trace lean since I added 6 new powercords last week. No problem as they still are breaking in fully. I will have to see how swapping them with previous ones etc after about a month of use.
Sine I acquired the Magnepan 20.7s began to be way easier to hear details, then adding in the Furutech duplex multipled that.. SO I am getting to really hear in detail what is there in recordings.. For good and bad.
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Goes to show I must have touched a nerve in Geoff..To gain such a solid chunk of his scorn!
But I have to agree my general attitude is ’"What?... EVER!"
My interest in tweaks is limited to easy to do, (and somewhat cheap, usually) And I am not open minded enough to buy into most of the BS spouted on audio sites.
As for Geoff. Even lashing out at folks who LIKE him.
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I guess you're mad you can't hear any of those sound plenty of normal folks can hear.. so you call them superhuman? LOL
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My feeling of the flaw with A/B testing is the test is exercising a totally different part of the brain than the part that can notice fine differences in music. In A/B the part being called in to use is the conscious judgemental rational frontal lobes. When we listen to music, relaxed and not under stress to ’choose’ different areas of the brain are most active.
I would think some people could ’LEARN’ how to be able to do it well, in an A/B test situation. but not everyone. I would bet Professional Classical music conductors would naturally excel at it.
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jea48. All those naysayers need a place to vent too! Audio Asylum has banned then for years on the cable asylum, and Audio Circle is getting back to doing so again. So where exactly IS a non believer able to vent? Why HERE on Audiogon!
I know it is annoying to listen to the drivel they spout. Always the same drivel and arguments too! But I say let them. Eventually they will get tire of their own endless tantrums, like four year olds...
And by them hanging around, maybe a few will get it through their thick skull that maybe they should try a different cable..
As is well known, plenty of audio cable believers were long time naysayers... Until they actually heard a difference!
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Besides pure wires, IMO you need pure plugs. AC plugs made with any brass content are damaging the sound from your speakers.
Once I went to all Furutech Duplex (which are made with pure copper, and use springs to maintain contact, I realized the few plain brass Wattgate plugs were altering the sound, mainly adding a white noise into the upper midrange. With me finally buying Pangea powercords of the XL series, which also say they are pure copper plugs.. The sound is better. (though the gold plated SE Pangea were better and no noticeable haze in upper mids, vs cords with plain brass Wattgate plugs)
I cannot say if bronze is different? tin alloy vs zinc.
Also I may try to make a cord like williewonka suggests.. a spiral.. For a source to start. |
yang_hong (welcome)
The point of threads like this is (some) folks agree power cables CAN affect the sound coming out of the speakers. They agree better AC power cords can and do change the sound one hears from the stereo.
Now the naysayers all agree this is ’not possible’. So that is the crux of the dispute between the yea-sayers, and the nay-sayers.
The most interesting thing is... Over time, many nay-sayers BECOME yea-sayers once they actually hear the changes power cords can make. I am one of those people. I used to, years ago believe power cords were just wire. Now, to me, they are part of the components.
So I would write that power cords in any of the components, can (but not always do) AFFECT the sound coming out of the speakers. and that is the basic claim of the yea-sayers.
The nay-sayers claim it is not possible for a power cord to affect the sound (except if it is too small, or has too much resistance.. The classic resistance, capacitance, inductance, ampacity.. and nothing else.)
So it would seem you (yang_hong) are in the naysayer camp? Welcome anyway!
Added" One point is the folks who generally are hearing differences have rather high end systems. I know for my own ability to hear such differences increased a lot when I upgraded back in 2010. And another big improvement in being able to hear such differences when i upgraded this year.
Such recent upgrades included from Magnepan 3.6 to 20.7 speakers. Buying a Marantz Sa-10 SACD/DAC. Switching all duplex outlets to Furutech GTX-D..
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I have a dimmer on another circuit in another room. When that dimmer is turned halfway on, the noise from it is seen on the amplifier line. Dimmer on, noise, dimmer off no noise. (the noise is being 'seen' via a PS Audio Noise harvester blinking) So noise from nearly anywhere in our home, outside your home can travel nearly anywhere on power lines.
There are devices which can stop the high frequency noise from passing on by.
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kob. Prior to my recent luxury upgrade to all Furutech Duplex. I used (for many years) Pass & Seymour heavy duty 20 amp duplex. They were great compared to the economy junk installed with 'lowest cost' in mind. Even thought they only cost about $5 each. They are at least 90% of the way to best possible duplex.
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dseltz.. One confusion about regenerators is they do NOT produce 'perfect' power. Yes better than the wall, but the percentage of better is based on how bad the power was to start. So usual 4% dirty, a conditioner, depending on which one, may reduce that to 1.1% or to 0.1% but not 0.00000000001 %.
And yes a better cord to the regenerator can improve the sound.Maybe not as much as to you amp... but yes.
I own a Furman REF20 conditioner, and a PS Audio P-600 regenerator.
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NO amount of WORDS is going to convince anyone. The only method which changes the naysayers is the actually get a wire and use it, discover it really does sound better. there you go, a convert.But it may be true threads like this might get a naysayer to at least try a different wire.. Awful lot of work though!!!
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How long can these threads be dragged out?
And how many repeated posts, notions, arguments, rants, cries for help... will it take before we all just get tired??? LOL |
I mentioned one of the ways I think there are changes to the power itself that go unrecognized is the fuzzyness of the wave form. I call it being thick, or thin (usually thin is too thin sounding. thick is fuzzy sounding..) There is no measurement for this, but is part of distortion.An analogy is a audio wave diffuse or coherent..
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Seventeen Furutech GTX duplex
Fourteen Pangea powercords
Two Furutech plugged powercords 32 ft and 44 ft long.
Two power conditionerstwo home made extension cords, Furutech plugs.
five PS Audio Noise Harvesters
All of my AC for the stereo. |
NO. usually the advertised as 20 amp plug means it has an IEC plug designed to fit only the 20 amp IEC mate. The IEC 20 amp design has HORIZONTAL blades. The 15 amp IEC has VERTICAL blades.Usually the 20 amp IEC is used by manufacturers making big amplifiers or heavy duty power conditioners. My Furman REF 20 came wit ha 20 amp chassis IEC which I took out and replaced with a 15 so I could use other cords. (That was back BEFORE a lot of aftermarket cords for IEC20 amp were being made)
They almost always have a standard Edison 15 amp wall plug
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This last week I spent $1780 on Pangea power cords. The AC14XL were on sale, and I bought nine. Three 4m, five 2m and a 1m. $650 off the regular price.
They do sound better than my old power cords. (clarity)
And I was able to give away the early AC14SE I had (6) left.. and some AC14 SE mk2 signature I put in the closet
just in case I need a spare later.
For Geoff I do not know if I had bought just one 2m Hurricane for the amp... Would I have had better sound replacing just one, costing $2,200, than NINE improvements, for $420 less?
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" Elizabeth, if you persist in punitively flagging my posts I’ll draw that matter to the attention of moderators. " Gee I have no idea what you are babbling on about? Punitively? I like the word.. So you think I am attempting to punish you? Exactly how? Maybe I think bad thoughts? Brash? Otherwise you are like some unknown grain of sand on a beach to me. I could care less if you even exist. actually. Glad to know you hold me in such high regard that you want to threaten me with "Attention of the Moderators’. Maybe it is the Universe bring us together? Chaotic perfection realized?
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A few posts back to: (paraphrasing) "What happens when one sticks the aftermarket power cord into an ordinary wall socket. or a cheap power strip?" Good question! The answer is more than if the power cord also was cheap. but less than could be achieved with that power cord and some good but inexpensive duplex and other accessories. The main point I would make is those other parts DO NOT HAVE TO BE EXPENSIVE!!! For the wall duplex. or an extension duplex, ordinary $5 or so Heavy Duty Pass & Seymour 20 amp variety,Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/Legrand-CR20WCC12-Commercial-Receptacle-125-volt/dp/B001AXBWD0/ref=sr_1_5?ie=... (which also can serve 15 amp plugs) are highly recommended. I used them right up to this year! and they are very good for $5 a pop. Power strips? Best to find a type you can substitute ordinary design duplex. So you can again, put in the Pass & Seymour duplex. (and perhaps later upgrade? to Hubble like offered here on Audiogon for $50 each) The worst cheap strip is so cheap. They cost $15. You can make a far better one for a little more money! say $25I do have to admit the endless piles of junk power strips is amazing. They all have one thing in common, no user replaceable outlets!Here is ONE design where it sure looks like user replaceable duplex! eBay ttps:// www.ebay.com/itm/3Ft-110V-15A-6-Switch-Plug-Outlet-Power-Supply-Block-Strip-Surge-Protector/12196203...$20 free shipping.Here is a much better one.. https://www.ebay.com/itm/Hammond-Industrial-Quality-Power-Bar-Strip-1583H6B1-Extension-Lead-6-Outlet...$65 but does seem like it is better made.So for $5 in the wall. and say $65 plus maybe swapping out the duplex (or they may be good? I have no idea) say yeah you add three new duplex $15. SO for a total of $85 you have a pretty good AC and worth using with you aftermarket power cord. YOU DO NOT need to spend ’thousands’... |
One reason I like Pangea is they make decent power cords for no more than I can hand make one. I made a 6ft powercord with DH Labs $8 ft 12 gauge wire (on sale) and Furutech ’28’ series Rhodium plugs (also on sale) and spent $268. (more than the Pangea AC9SE mk2 signature power cord cost. The results of a ’shootout’? they are in a dead heat. very near the same. Now my latest purchase of a Pangea AC14XL clearly beats out the other two. and it cost (on sale) $180
So making a power cord can often be an exercise gaining no more than you could have had buying a ready made power cord. and the ready made may cost you LESS.
PS the DH Labs cord, with much cheaper Wattgate plugs, (total about $90) sounded worse than the Pangea AC9SE mk2
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I have yet to find a box of electronics I cannot rip the cover off of, and destroy. Sometimes within minutes. I have a gift.
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I AM trying to convince folks... Just sayin'. If I could just hypnotize everyone yeah! BUY AFTERMARKET POWERCORDS!!!! and as mantra you can't forget... No need to be reasonable. just go do it.
If I could do that...... I certainly would include 'send me gifts of money'... LOL
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Thank you! jea48.. great post. read it thoroughly!
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Straight ahead.. polished conductors means the company polishes the wire before they are put into shielding. No brainer. Polishing them makes they conduct more evenly.. better... smoother.. At least that is the idea. I would also think they are polished in a non- oxygen atmosphere..
I polish my AC plug blades...
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No, I mean a pure nitrogen atmosphere. Like a Taco Bell restroom.
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I find the better the equipment, the MORE that equipment responds well to a better power cord, better wall AC duplex.
Back when I had $2000 a pop electronics, I could barely tell the differences in power cords. When I jumped to $5000 a pop for equipment, and added a $3500 power conditioner, it became easier to hear the differences.
Now with a $14,000 pair of speakers, and a lot of AC improvements, I can hear the change of moving one power cord plug from a Gold plated Furutech GTX to the Rhodium one.
This is the difference of actual experience instead of fantasy theory, and the failure to realize: "Gee if I can't hear it, no one can" is not true.
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Off topic. I was looking at/interested in a Wyred for Sound Remedy Reclocker, but noted the general interest in threads was the year it came out, a few posts in the next year, then nothing. If it DID anything, there would be MORE ACTIVITY discussing it.. Seemed to have been a 'flash in the pan' and not much more. I could maybe see buying one to allow me to add another source to my DAC...?But for the price, plus needing a real power supply? just too much money and fooling around.
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So the guy 'disagrees'? He is just guessing/ making up fantasies. Good luck with that stuff.He says folks need to prove (to him?) NOT. all I need is to listen, I do not need to prove to him anything. Nada, zero. Ever notice these naysayers jump into threads promoting PC and IC. They never seem to have their own threads... Why? No one would post to it! LOL
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What is the actual need the naysayers have? They clearly do not feel the need to ’save’ people being fooled. (Though they may say that is one of the reasons.) The actual reason is they are trying desperately to keep their own World View intact. If they are wrong, their World view crumbles. there is mystery, things may not be what they think they are. They can’t let that happen, They HAVE to be right. That is why they constantly crash any threads about power cords and cables having distinct differences one can hear, but not measure. That is the kind is reasons naysayers just cannot let it go. They are terrified of it. Over and over the same arguments, the same reasons, No one who hears differences in cables cares. NO ONE CARES. All we need is to listen. The nonsense the naysayers spout can never beat just listening. It is like ’One picture is worth a thousand words." Well one listen is worth a million. YOU guys have a LOT of typing to do to catch up LOL
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To the question of the first aftermarket power cords... Not the exact date but early 1980s is a good guess Monster Cable was one of the founders, and might be THE founder of aftermarket speaker wires.. But anyway, yeah probably soon after the speaker cable upgrades started..
Placebo, yeah, not the right word, it is stolen from another field and re-used. However the audio 'idea' behind the use of the word is a problem which might be strong enough to give the word a second useful meaning. Thus it becomes what it is used for. Thus saying placebo cannot be used is nonsense. If enough folks agree (and I agree too) then it becomes 'standard English'. So we all know what the word refers to in audio usage. No problem. That it means something different than the exact origin in drug clinical trials is not big deal I am certain the word existed BEFORE those trials, and was appropriated for that usage too. I can easily defend the use of the word but not the claims of the folks using it! On the other hand, perhaps the placebo effect is on the part of the naysayers. Thus they can hear the differences, yet their minds tells them there is not difference. Just as possible as the reverse placebo' claims.
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"" Just curious what is your opinion on interconnects and speaker cables? Do they make a difference in what we hear? "" .
Giant (I mean huge!) can of worms being opened...
I can hear the worms slithering already.... |
See. again the need for proof is on the naysayers part. not the folks who can hear a difference. No one ’needs’ to prove anything. If you can’t hear it. NOT MY PROBLEM. I have no need to help you discover anything. It is like a big club. Membership requirement number one: Be able to hear differences in cables.So here is this guy(s) wanting to sneak in the back door? or claiming the club is "illegal" (?Because you wont let him in??) No way.. Ignore the heckler standing outside in the cold! eventually he will either: wear himself out fighting with shadows.. or discover he too CAN hear a difference. (amazing how many members used to be hecklers... )
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Yeah, he just cannot see beyond his own nose. He may be an AI.. a broken one. AI that cannot think out side the box are broken, or just a common computer.For the computer pretending to be an AI... You are looking at the wrong part. The wave form hits the point in space.. how long does it take to touch pass and leave that point. It cannot be instantaneous.. it takes time. how much time? no one cares?? is it spending a lot of time there from start to finish. or fast? from start to finish. True frequency would make to whole thing faster, but ignore that. for any specific frequency, the wave front time from first point to last.. How long? can it be longer? being fuzzy? or faster, being tight? you have NO IDEA. If you say it cannot . be then you are claiming the wave is an infinite point? no time spread at all? Can it BE fuzzy? you don't know that either. Never bothered to find out?
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I would say you are not measuring the right things..... LOL.The measurement thing is your game, not mine.Why would I play by your biased rules??? When they are not what I base my judgements on? I like the fine art analogy. You idea is to measure the painting, not LOOK at it.
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""Upgrading the power cord on "ALL"..."" no one ever said that. It is true on some, maybe even many, but not all, which leaves your argument worthless.
"Extends treble response" nope. again a restatement of what was said to make it fit YOUR NOTION. not the person who said it. Generally SOMETIMES, (note the sometimes.). the treble has more clarity. easier to understand female vocals, hear cymbals clearly, massed violins sound as a group of separate instruments, not just some clump of noise. I would go on to add that usually this also means attack is sharper, cleaner.
Bass is usually tighter, less wooly, not louder
And then placebo. So far we have allowed the ’notion’ created by the naysayers that ’placebo’ is : ’bad’, ’stupid’ terrible’ ’a failure’. When those are THEIR colorations to the word. When in fact placebo is neutral. it is not judgemental. It is a statement that the (great and wanted) effect, has no known reasons. OK So then I say Placebo is GOOD, Fine, no problem, it works, and that is all that matters is the sound is better to YOU. If some other person wants to name that placebo,... THROW AWAY the negative markers THEY put on the word. Say so what if you call it placebo, it means nothing. neutral, only means you could not measure it. YOUR fail not mine.
If in YOUR mind that makes no sense, I cannot fix it for you. Your brain just is not able to make it work. Sorry.
I understand you want to engage, you think by constantly trying to invent a new way to debate you can somehow ’refute’ the things being said. Sorry it will never work. The things being said are an attempt to say in words what the person experiences. If the words fall short, it does not make the experience invalid. The experience is the basis. not the words. Where for the naysayer, it does seem the words are all that matter.So even if the words of the people who have had the positive EXPERIENCE of value added power cords falter. The experience stands. Where all you naysayers have are words, endless words. Like I mentioned before. "A picture is worth a thousand words" and in audio the sound is worth a million. You have about 999,023 more words needed to even start coming close to being meaningful.. Just keep typing.. you WILL get there.. (Number of words, not necessarily winning your case)
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My apartment is ALWAYS at 80F. 79F is ’too cold’. In the Summer, it can be 83F easy.. Maybe even 85F.. no problem. I am a Florida sort..
Even though I live in the North. Geoff already knew that...
I know mzk-etc cannot fathom my question. No problem dude. I forgive you.
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mitch2.. One part of you query is about what else can be in the powercord that is not being measured" (totally parphrasing, if in error, yell at me)
Stuff only from my experience, and no one is agreeing in any way, but I will put it out there for some genius to decide to see it is is real....
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From my playing around with power.. cords, duplex, conditioners, I have 'made up' a theory that the wave form can be made 'THICK' or 'THIN" or fuzzy or tight. somehow using these things. and THAT is what changes the way stuff sounds.
Now the wave is not instantaneous. it takes time. How much time is normal. can it be tighter? IE arrive faster and leave sooner? can it arrive slowly and leave slowly. sure it is microseconds.. but still. Does it have time? are there timing errors? certainly in the industrial sector, where the power factor matters.. Does it matter in audio? can it be measured/ How much off matters to the sound? no one is measuring this.
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dentdog
I have a 23 ft (7 meter) length from preamp to amp. XLR. and yes I can easily hear the differences in the cables I have used for it. Years ago, Kimber PBJ. Then about 9 years ago Kimber Hero. Four years ago a complete fail of Cadas Parsec. (great at 1 meter, terrible at 7m) Then home made with Kimber wire, then two years ago i went for a $3,200 Kimber KS1116 XLR pair. best sound by far.
And I am upgrading power cords and can hear each type as I upgrade. Your experience may vary. But all of it is hyped, both for and against. Sadly, you just have to figure it out on your own. Best advice... Use your OWN EARS. decide for yourself.
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Kudos to Enid Lumley who 'discovered' lifting cables made an improvement. When she brought that discovery to the World via The Absolute Sound.. she was run out of town on a rail, figuratively
Sad.. I am sure there are more examples of folks put down for recognizing things others refuse to see...
Gee. what could some of those thing s be???
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I thought you were waiting for free cheese too? mzk-etc...So.. you like wires and stuff huh?
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Well, to add to the mystery and consternation... Today I got in the mail a pair of 10 ohm Duelund Cast. So after cleaning the leads I added them to a pair of 1.3 ohm to get me 1.15 ohm to place on the midrange panel resistance on my Magnepan 20.7 speakers.
Previously 0.75 ohms was the right number... When I bought some new Pangea AC14XL powercords, and replaced all the previous Pangea AC14 Se signature cords on my sources.The midrange on the Magnepan got 'brighter sounding'.
So what I am saying is the changing of powercords changed the resistance I need in the speaker midrange to have them sound best.Good luck
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If one looks at many positive posters here and elsewhere... They too once thought it was impossible for cables to affect the sound. Until they heard it for themselves. Over and over i have read folks saying this, and can say I too used to pooh pooh powercords, and still do speaker cables to some degree. But once I heard a difference in ap power cord.well what can I say.
So I say never give up on the naysayers. Some day they too will hear a difference.
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What argument? Is there some argument? I thought this was the line for free Government cheese? It's not? Well, why have I been hanging around here for days??
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I have noticed explaining things on audio sites to folks has certainly helped deepen my own understanding. Even of my own motives...aka I just bought two refrigerator magnet whiteboards as a pseudo E Mat. So I posted on the big E Mat thread about how I am gonna try this as they even make it clear on the E Mat website the thing is a refrigerator magnet.. (sort of) So the very next post is asking me ’Are you trying to start a dustup? mmmmaaaaaaaayyyyyybbbbeeeeee? More like just seeing if a 1/26 the price for 3 times the size btw. has more than 1/78 of the effect???
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