Sales training? This comment is rather revealing - so your spiel is "advanced sales training" then (advanced BS? ;-))? That would appear to be it in a nutshell. I dont work in hifi. However I do come from an engineering research background and my arguments are based upon that angle. Your suppositions are way off as always. As I said neither IMD or impulse response are relevent here. Had you made some more pertinent comments your assertions may have deserved more credulity.
Speaker performance isn't just about driver stats. Can you know a speakers bass extension just from the bass driver frequency range? Of course not. Same for the treble. The atc frequency response plots I have sign have a slight rise in anachoic conditions which equates to a treble peak in real life when reverbation in a real listening room is considered. +1db sine wave isnt much but +1db broad band signal is a lot of extra energy and the ear can pick it up easily. Again this cannot necessarily be deduced from the driver - the crossover and cabinet must be considered, as well as typical listening conditions. In addition frequency plots dont tell the whole story. Variations in off axis response can make any speaker look flat if you position the mic right - doesnt mean it reflects real life though. Lies, damn lies and statistics... and as these are musical reproduction devices the ultmate test of acceptibility is how they sound - in conjunction with rigourous enginerring development. I buy based on sound not stats (though I would like to imagine good engieering and good sound quality are strongly linked). However the latter on its own is not enough. Plenty of hifi has outstanding specs all round but still sounds awful. Because people develop to these metrics and our understanding is not complete. Plus manufacturers pick and choose specs to show their equipment in its best light and ignore the shortcomings so manufacturers specs are not a relaible source of information. This is true in every engineering field. There are opamps and transistors with fab specs but sound terrible - it's only when you examine them yourself that you see the short comings and they are not necessarily encapsulated by tradition specs. Music is a complex signal and it is very hard to make effective metrics - steady state sinewaves are not always useful - which is why lsitening tests are so essential. The ear is a nonlinear mechanism and the least well understood of our senses still. Psycho acoutics is still a bit of a black art.
In addition PMC midrange units are proprietary and the specs are not in the public domain (as you well know). The bottom line is - PMC sound markedly better on female voice. Partly due to TL and partly due to the improved midrange unit. If I was able to compare the specs of the two drivers I could perhaps suggest a reason for this. If you have them please forward them and I will be happy to do so.
To claim rear wall reinforcement will load a room as effectively as a TL is rather a bizarre staement at odds with scientific theory and practice. Back that up with a rigourous explanantion. I heard the ATC's close to the wall and also away from the wall. It was sharp either way. In addition TL stiffens the bass driver to give a double benefit. In combination these two effects not only improve the bass but have knock on effect into the midrange (which they partially cover anyway).
ATC have changed their story to match the changing times and the consumer market. They have already tweaked drive units and crossovers to make them more domestically acceptable in the treble and bass over the last few years. I have spoken to rec engs over the eyars and I know what they are used for. The sharpness is not a "flaw" when considered for the pro market. As I said the atc do what they are designed for - which doesnt align well with domestic use. Just because a spanner cant tithten screws doesnt mean it is flawed. Its a fit tool for its purpose and so is the atc. But now they want to make money from the home market. The adaptions they have already made prove my points.
As I recall I restricted myself to the products until you made groundless suppositions about the dems I have attended. In that light your remarks look pretty Clintonesque - accusing me of the very thging you are guilty in order to draw attention away from that fact. I dont say anything is wrong with the seas tweeter. I beleive the vociing of that unit in conjunction with the crossover is "wrong" and that has nothing to do with distortion specs at 3 khz. So you have a distortion versus frequency trace - so what? A little knowledge is a dangerous thing it seems. Look at the big picture. Not 0.1 db difference in distortion at 3 khz.
I am well aware you will sell both pmc and atc. I said you are baised about atc as you sell them I didnt say you were baised for atc over pmc ;-).
Yours is sales speil - good spiel but spiel nonetheless. Unquestioning acceptance of tech specs without really seeing the big picture or understanding R&D. Being able to quote tech specs and drop a few terms in doesnt equal understanding.
You ordered the "slam dunk" pizza - it just got delivered. I hope you like the free garlic bread.
Speaker performance isn't just about driver stats. Can you know a speakers bass extension just from the bass driver frequency range? Of course not. Same for the treble. The atc frequency response plots I have sign have a slight rise in anachoic conditions which equates to a treble peak in real life when reverbation in a real listening room is considered. +1db sine wave isnt much but +1db broad band signal is a lot of extra energy and the ear can pick it up easily. Again this cannot necessarily be deduced from the driver - the crossover and cabinet must be considered, as well as typical listening conditions. In addition frequency plots dont tell the whole story. Variations in off axis response can make any speaker look flat if you position the mic right - doesnt mean it reflects real life though. Lies, damn lies and statistics... and as these are musical reproduction devices the ultmate test of acceptibility is how they sound - in conjunction with rigourous enginerring development. I buy based on sound not stats (though I would like to imagine good engieering and good sound quality are strongly linked). However the latter on its own is not enough. Plenty of hifi has outstanding specs all round but still sounds awful. Because people develop to these metrics and our understanding is not complete. Plus manufacturers pick and choose specs to show their equipment in its best light and ignore the shortcomings so manufacturers specs are not a relaible source of information. This is true in every engineering field. There are opamps and transistors with fab specs but sound terrible - it's only when you examine them yourself that you see the short comings and they are not necessarily encapsulated by tradition specs. Music is a complex signal and it is very hard to make effective metrics - steady state sinewaves are not always useful - which is why lsitening tests are so essential. The ear is a nonlinear mechanism and the least well understood of our senses still. Psycho acoutics is still a bit of a black art.
In addition PMC midrange units are proprietary and the specs are not in the public domain (as you well know). The bottom line is - PMC sound markedly better on female voice. Partly due to TL and partly due to the improved midrange unit. If I was able to compare the specs of the two drivers I could perhaps suggest a reason for this. If you have them please forward them and I will be happy to do so.
To claim rear wall reinforcement will load a room as effectively as a TL is rather a bizarre staement at odds with scientific theory and practice. Back that up with a rigourous explanantion. I heard the ATC's close to the wall and also away from the wall. It was sharp either way. In addition TL stiffens the bass driver to give a double benefit. In combination these two effects not only improve the bass but have knock on effect into the midrange (which they partially cover anyway).
ATC have changed their story to match the changing times and the consumer market. They have already tweaked drive units and crossovers to make them more domestically acceptable in the treble and bass over the last few years. I have spoken to rec engs over the eyars and I know what they are used for. The sharpness is not a "flaw" when considered for the pro market. As I said the atc do what they are designed for - which doesnt align well with domestic use. Just because a spanner cant tithten screws doesnt mean it is flawed. Its a fit tool for its purpose and so is the atc. But now they want to make money from the home market. The adaptions they have already made prove my points.
As I recall I restricted myself to the products until you made groundless suppositions about the dems I have attended. In that light your remarks look pretty Clintonesque - accusing me of the very thging you are guilty in order to draw attention away from that fact. I dont say anything is wrong with the seas tweeter. I beleive the vociing of that unit in conjunction with the crossover is "wrong" and that has nothing to do with distortion specs at 3 khz. So you have a distortion versus frequency trace - so what? A little knowledge is a dangerous thing it seems. Look at the big picture. Not 0.1 db difference in distortion at 3 khz.
I am well aware you will sell both pmc and atc. I said you are baised about atc as you sell them I didnt say you were baised for atc over pmc ;-).
Yours is sales speil - good spiel but spiel nonetheless. Unquestioning acceptance of tech specs without really seeing the big picture or understanding R&D. Being able to quote tech specs and drop a few terms in doesnt equal understanding.
You ordered the "slam dunk" pizza - it just got delivered. I hope you like the free garlic bread.