Neutral electronics are a farce...

Roger,

"I believe you can have both a neutral system and a natural system. After all - if your understanding of "neutral" means no top end or bottom end exaggerations or no coloration's etc., wouldn't the default term be "natural" as well - meaning that a system that can deliver a flawless performance in your listening room would have to be considered natural?"

Generally speaking, I certainly believe that if you do have a neutral sound then the overall result will indeed be more natural overall, no question...and as far as that goes, I would add that there would also be more realism as well. At least, that's what I'd say I am experiencing here. But, the idea of neutrality as a separate issue was raised that way in the OP and that was the way I was responding to it...but, yes, I regard it as simply an integral part of the whole. But, if you ask me, I would think that trying to pursue realism and naturalism without neutrality might make for a little tougher sledding in the long run, but to each his own, I suppose.

"This is an interesting observation which can mean one of two things.
1. You have very good gear with not too much of a problem with external interference.

2. You have arrived at a combination of gear that has masked the benefits or the "sounds" of either configuration."

Yes, IME I find it's actually a rather striking observation (which is why I made the comment, really), but that has been one of the differences made by Alan Maher here. In truth, I would say I have moderate gear and a greatly reduced level of external interference...far below what is normally encountered. Again that's from the AMD here.

"Except now it is worse because if they upgrade one component that gives them truly better detail, it further exposes a harshness in some component up stream and they either have to get another replacement for it or put the first one back in so it is tolerable."

That is what the AMD here is really all about. It has eliminated that result for me. Instead, all I've had to consider all the technical aspects of system synergy. Reducing the noise in the system's environment wholesale has allowed me to consider a far wider range of equipment without ever running into the "harshness" conundrum. It even allowed me to use less expensive gear and get stellar results.

"When someone gets the bug be can't afford much, the old guys tell the newbees how to get the best sound for the buck. You simply get a "bright" sounding preamp to drive a "good" power amp with poor top end that emphasizes the mids and bottom end. This uses one component as pre-emphasis and a second for de-emphasis. You end up with the perfect mix of zig and zag and you save a lot of money. Yes? 
Well, it might be a good place to start but it will be quickly disappointing. 
It is hard to fool your ears with anything that contains distortion - even if it is the "good" kind."

Agreed, this is always worth avoiding...although to be fair, the old guys, whenever they may be handing out such advice, are usually up against the most severe budget restraints of newbees when they do so, but personally, I'm with you.

Regards
John

Electrons carry charge, whereas the music signal is an electromagnetic EM wave so it (the signal) must travel in a conductor at near lightspeed. In order to travel at that speed the wave must be, physically, photons, not electrons. The electrons in the conductor only travel what a meter an hour or something. If the audio signal wasn't light speed you would hear a pretty big delay for normal phone conversations, no?

Wow. Just wow.

So are you saying that there is no current flow in a vacuum tube or a transistor? That its all photons? or does the the photon flow turn into electron flow once it hits the tube? Wow.

Not sure why you're putting words in my mouth. No, I’m not saying that. Wow.

The 'why' is I was simply dealing very directly with the statement you made which I quoted above so the context is very immediate. Here it is again:

Electrons carry charge, whereas the music signal is an electromagnetic EM wave so it (the signal) must travel in a conductor at near lightspeed. In order to travel at that speed the wave must be, physically, photons, not electrons. The electrons in the conductor only travel what a meter an hour or something. If the audio signal wasn't light speed you would hear a pretty big delay for normal phone conversations, no?

This suggests that you think the audio signal is traveling in the form of photons. Obviously to do that, eventually the signal has to arrive at a tube or a transistor, in order for a stereo amp or preamp to do its job; therefore the **only** logical conclusion one can draw from your statement is that you think the tube or transistor must have photon flow too!

I think you know that is not the case; giving you that benefit of the doubt how is it that you square the fact that tubes and transistors have current flow but somehow the wires that attach to them only have photon flow??

IOW, what's wrong with this picture?

You are correct that electrons don't flow very quickly in a conductor. The reason that the signal travels much faster is easily seen if you think of a hose filled with marbles- the hose representing the wire and the marbles representing the electrons. If you put a marble in the input of the hose another immediately (at light speed) pops out the other side. In practice not the same electron you put in but it does the same work.

IOW, signals do not propagate through any audio cable in the form of photons, unless that cable is a fiber optic. And the signal does indeed move much faster than the electrons.

OK, let’s review the bidding.

The audio signal is not the same thing as charge.

The electrons in the conductor move very slowly.

The audio signal moves VERY rapidly. It moves at near light speed in a conductor.

What do we know of that can move at light speed in a vacuum and near light speed in a conductor? An electromagnetic wave. But an electromagnetic wave is not nothing. It must be made of something. We already know it’s not made of electrons since electrons don’t move very fast at all, a centimeter per minute or whatever. What else could it possibly be? Well, for one thing we know that ALL electromagnetic waves, including light (both visible and invisible), radio frequencies of all types, x-rays, gamma rays, and Extremely Low Frequency waves travel at light speed and must be made of SOMETHING. They can’t be made of nothing, right? Well, here we come to the grand finale. The only thing we know of that travels at light speed and near light speed depending on medium is drum roll, please.....photons! And the reason photons can travel at the speed of light is they have no mass, as you yourself pointed out. If a particle has mass it can never attain light speed.

So, the audio signal, the one that’s traveling at light speed is made of photons.