Hi trelja
Excellent post!!!
Michael Green
www.michaelgreenaudio.net
Talk but not walk?
Hi Guys
This isn't meant to start a fight, but it is important to on lookers. As a qualifier, I have my own audio forum where we report on audio issues as we empirically test them. It helps us short cut on theories and developing methods of listening. We have a wide range of systems and they are all over the world adding their experiences to the mix. Some are engineers, some are artist and others are audiophiles both new and old. One question I am almost always asked while I am visiting other forums, from some of my members and also members of the forum I am visiting is, why do so many HEA hobbyist talk theory without any, or very limited, empirical testing or experience?
I have been around empirical testing labs since I was a kid, and one thing that is certain is, you can always tell if someone is talking without walking. Right now on this forum there are easily 20 threads going on where folks are talking theory and there is absolutely no doubt to any of us who have actually done the testing needed, that the guy talking has never done the actual empirical testing themselves. I've seen this happen with HEA reviewers and designers and a ton of hobbyist. My question is this, why?
You would think that this hobby would be about listening and experience, so why are there so many myths created and why, in this hobby in particular, do people claim they know something without ever experimenting or being part of a team of empirical science folks. It's not that hard to setup a real empirical testing ground, so why don't we see this happen?
I'm not asking for peoples credentials, and I'm not asking to be trolled, I'm simply asking why talk and not walk? In many ways HEA is on pause while the rest of audio innovation is moving forward. I'm also not asking you guys to defend HEA, we've all heard it been there done it. What I'm asking is a very simple question in a hobby that is suppose to be based on "doing", why fake it?
thanks, be polite
Michael Green
www.michaelgreenaudio.net
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@michaelgreenaudio I like your use of "bad" recordings to tune a system. It's only been through trial and error, system tweaking, speaker placement, etc. that I take out some of those old, unlistenable CDs that we all have lying around and now find them better, if not great sounding. It's always been that little test I do for myself. Some of those older, bad sounding CDs can be some real gems. All the best, Nonoise |
michaelgreenaudio Your making an issue when there isn't one buddy. I'm totally hip with observation Great - we're on the same page. If only every forum issue could be so easily resolved! And I've often asked the same thing as you in your first post: why do so many HEA hobbyist talk theory without any, or very limited, empirical testing or experience?That's a mystery for the ages. |
Hi fsonicsmith Wow that must have been a long time ago. Good to here from you. Could you imagine actually building them. I would think that months after we talked is when I came out with the tunable speakers. I took everything I learned from those types of stands and made them into speakers. Now, many years later, the speakers are very much like musical instruments. Very light weight and of course tunable. It was a fun and interesting learning curve coming from the recording and performance world to HEA. What I didn't know was how needy the market was for tunable products. In music making so many things are about tuning, and when I opened my first HEA shop in the early 80's it was somewhat weird to me that the listener knew so little about tuning. But I didn't act on it until RoomTune (sorta-kinda). I would say about the time that the Chameleon came out is when the big picture became more clear. You obviously talked to me during that creative learning curve time. Also keep in mind I was still on tour while going through my first couple of RoomTune years. The folks I worked with in music encouraged me not to mix HEA with recording. They felt that my credibility in the pro world would be damaged if I hung out with the high end geeks. That was just their perception at the time. "Van Gough's Starry Night or Da Vinci's Mona Lisa?" I'm a Picasso guy. Every piece of music is a huge canvas, much bigger than what we play on most systems. I'm into real size real space, that I have carried with me from my recording days and doing sound for the Atlanta Symphony. I've also designed a few concert halls and studios of my own since we last talked so I'm sure me, as a student, has changed quite a bit. As far as Tuning there are now over 100,000 RoomTuners and a few thousand Tunees, so that's different as well. I work with about 400 active ones. as far as Geoff Even though Geoff's job and my job come from two different paths and Geoff's personality and mine are quite different I've come to appreciate Geoff's commitment to his calling. I believe Geoff fits in these HEA forums more than I do. I come here to convert folks to tuning and to allow people hunting for me to find me. I kind of dropped out of HEA in "97". One I had saturated my market here for RoomTune and two I had some really good offers from SUNY to design a music wing for them, some big studios, move to Nashville (working with their studios) and work with Herman Miller. I kept a smaller factory going but pulled my ads from the HEA. HEA stalled and started to decline and I didn't want to get stuck in that trend. When the mom and pop HEA stores went under that changed things for a lot of folks, many of whom simply folded up their tents. So, lumping me in with Geoff is a bit of a stretch. But, I think you guys don't realize how similar you and Geoff are. When I read these threads I don't really see much of a difference with the exception that Geoff is wittier than anyone on these pages when it comes to a trolling contest. You should just face it, Geoff is part of the AGon fabric. And Geoff is no dummy. Geoff studies the hobby and science. I've seen Geoff misstep and the very next debate learn from what he didn't know and use it in that next debate. You guys may not realize his ability to learn because you are too busy getting beatup by him, but I've watched him absorb facts about audio and share them. I disagree with Geoff on a few issues but believe if I was with him in a room tuning it would be fun. I also believe if he ever came over to the totally tunable side, he would be deadly at changing this hobby. No one in audio forum talk today is more persistent than Geoff. I think you guys can and have learned a lot from Geoff. I know I have tried (I think) every thing he asked me to try when we were on Stereophile at the same time. BTW I did not enjoy Geoff at all on Stereophile and couldn't believe they let him post there. And if I became the target of Geoff's on this forum I would say bye, see you next year. I don't like tension type interchanges and Geoff is the master at creating tension. I'm very thankful to him for not drawing his target on my back this time. And you have to admit he really knows how to get you guys panties in a bunch. OK this was too long winded but fun. Michael Green www.michaelgreenaudio.net |
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