Got a New CD Player and Now I'm Bummed

Dodgealum,

Thanks for taking my post as it was intended, and not as an idle trashing of the Scout. As you, Jdolgin and Restock all said, it's a great rig at its price point. But price points require compromises. Comparing a $2K component to an $8K one just isn't fair - unless the cheaper one wins of course. :-) I wouldn't put my Denon DVD-3910 up against your X-03SE (except for movies!)

Restock listed the tables that I would, along with some others. ;-)

An Amazon would fit your space but they're driven by a belt that's thinner and stretchier than yours. I'm not sure how much of an upgrade it would be, though you could easily put a better arm on it.

Garrards can be an effort to keep running properly if bought used, and $20K+ if ordered new. Proceed with your eyes open.

Teres is abandoning belt drive for rim (Verus) and direct (Certus) drive. The Certus tables are $14K+ and too big for your space. The Verus has some implementation peculiarities which cause polarized responses. Many (most?) people love it, especially rockers and those upgrading from lesser rigs. Some incredibly picky classical and acoustic jazz twits (like Paul and me) found it unlistenable. It depends on one's pitch sensitivity and whether one demands tonal, temporal and harmonic clarity. A Verus would certainly outplay a Scout by a large margin. Whether it would fit your budget, space and preferences is up to you.

No experience with the Raven One or DPS tables. Restock's description of DPS's approach to stylus drag was interesting. It's technically correct that constant, high drag is the mathematical equivalent of high rotational mass. Either one presents inertia, which reduces the amplitude and velocity of stylus drag decelerations. Properly implemented, it sounds like a nifty way to stuff *some* of the benefits of a very massive platter into a smaller package. Tricky to do well, but maybe they have. It's gotta be worth a look.

Galibier's entry level Serac table ($3250) would stomp all over a Scout. It addresses the issues I mentioned above almost as well as my $6K Teres. Excellent motor. Superb bearing. Same non-stretchy drive belt. My only advantage in speed stability/stylus drag resistance is a heavier platter. The main question for you is: would it fit. Check it out.

Finally, I agree with Lewm's most recent post (except for the "pig-headed" thing). Trying a non-elastic belt would cost you nothing and would be educational. A fellow A'goner, prompted by my insistent postings on this topic, DIY'd a mylar belt for his VPI Aries or TNT (I forget which). He's been stunned by the improvement, even though the VPI motor is not the ideal candidate for a linear drive belt. It would be worth your time to make this experiment. A used SDS or Walker controller would also be a low-risk upgrade, as he pointed out.

Happy hunting. Don't forget to enjoy the music during all the madness.

Doug

One table I forgot to mention in my previous post:

Frank Schroeder has designed a new table which has an interesting idea for using a tape drive. I think it will be marketed by Artemis. Soundwise it is little of an unknown although you know what to expect from Frank's products.

Sorry about use of the phrase "pig-headed". Perhaps "close-minded" would have sufficed and would have seemed less harsh. No offense intended to anyone.

Guys, do you really think that a light platter with a friction bearing is a perfect analogue of a very heavy platter with a low-friction bearing? It would seem to me that those two behave very differently when rotational force is reduced. The heavy platter with a low friction bearing will want to go on spinning "forever" (in the complete absence of bearing friction), while the light platter cum friction bearing will rapidly slow down. Therefore, in actual use, when the platter is subjected to the opposing forces of stylus drag vs torque applied by the drive belt, the two approaches would give different results. Both designs can work well; I just don't think they are alike.

Lewm, the analog of a friction bearing is not strictly correct. The effects are similar when considering the influence of stylus drag though - both act as a low-pass filter for vibrations and speed variations.

As for a freely spinning platter vs. a constant friction - the latter has actually some nice advantages - motors work more consistently against a constant force (just imagine yourself on a bike peddling downhill vs. peddling against a slightly well defined force. Downhill the change of load makes it difficult to keep speed constant). Of course as always, whether the design will be successful will really in the details of the implementation.

Also, a nice discussion of friction bearing vs. high mass platter by Frank Schroeder can be found here:

Discussion of Friction Bearing by Frank

Dodgealum, sorry if we take the thread somewhat off-topic, but I am hoping the discussion of low-mass and high mass designs may aid you in the decision to find the right turntable.

Thanks everyone for giving me some things to consider. I really appreciate the advice and will take a look at some of the turntables you all have mentioned. I think I'll begin there and then explore a preamp/phono preamp to replace the SP16. To respond to the question posed by Dre j, here is how I would describe the difference between my Scout and the Esoteric:

The Scout sounds muddled, slow, recessed, veiled and lacking resolution compared to the Esoteric. When comparing the same recording going from vinyl to CD there is a huge difference. The Esoteric is so much more revealing, involving and dynamic. The bass is much more weighty and the treble has way more air, speed and delicacy. About the only thing I can say about the Scout is that recordings that tend to be bright or edgy come across more pleasant and listenable than on the Esoteric, which really brings out the worst in a bad recording.

All in all I find myself gravitating to my CD collection (which is much smaller) and listening less to my LP's.

I agree that comparing $8K and $2K front ends is not really fair and that is why I feel the need to invest similarly in a new turntable. To bring it back to where I began this thread, given the potential of CD's and vinyl records, how much should I plan to spend to get equivalent sound from my records that I am getting from my Esoteric?

BTW, I am fine with the discussion veering off to the pros and cons of various turntable designs--very helpful indeed. Thanks for asking.