SUT decision: Ortofon Verto vs Ortofon STA6600L

[My 10-13-13 post was filled with embarrassing typos. I am hoping that the moderator(s) will delete that post in favor of the corrected version below.]

Once you audition one of Bob's blue series SUT's (the 1131 or Sky 30) running into the MM section of your phono you will be amazed at the improvement. Built & backed in the USA & Bob is a wealth of information. (Check Art Dudley's Stereophile review.)

Go a step further: Try Bob's outstanding cables. The synergy between Bob's cables & his SUT's is a perfect harmony.

If you act quickly, before RMAF closes, Bob may extend to you a "Show Discount."

I have heard about Bob's product. I know they have good reputation. However, how good are they compared to an Auditorium23 or a Ortofon Verto? Has anyone made a direct comparison ?

The issue here is that the RCM phono stage has 52-76db of gain.
Even at its lowest gain setting a transformer with a ratio of 1:20 or more will end up with too much gain and possibly overload the phono ( its solid state, they dont have a lot of head room ).

1:10 turns ratio which will give you 20db plus 52db = 72db.
Cartridge will output 0.5mVx10=5mV into the phono

1:20 will give you 26db plus 52db = 78db.
Cartridge will output 0.5mVx20=10mV into the phono.

As a comparison my Marantz 7 ppreamp will amplify an MC with 0.3mV output with no noise and gain to spare with 60db including the line stage.

None of the responses above have considered these issues.

06-18-10: Jcarr
Hi Rene: Normally I wouldn't recommend a step-up transformer with the Delos unless your phono either has low gain or good overload margin.

The 0.6mV output from the Delos is high enough that it caused clipping when we matched it up with a Nagra BPS, which (according to Stereophile) has 51dB gain in fixed-coil mode and 62dB with the built-in stepup transformer in the circuit. Jumpering out the transformer cleared up the situation. I presume that the 9V power supply of the BPS is to blame, and that using a different phono stage with a higher power supply voltage would avoid the problem.

If you use a transformer, I suggest 1:10 ratio, loading at the secondary, and very short, very low-capacitance cable connecting the transformer to the phono stage.

Boosting the output from a Delos with a 1:10 ratio will present your phono stage with a 6mV input, which should be quite comfortable for all MM and MI-level phono stages.

If your phono stage has 60dB gain or more, you won't need a transformer (unless you have very low preamp/power amp gain, or very inefficient speakers). If your phono stage gain is in the 40-some dB range, you will probably need a headamp or stepup transformer. Again, your results will be affected by preamp/power amp gain and speaker efficiency, but likely not enough to let you get by without the extra gain stage.

The situation is more unclear with phono stages in the 50-some dB range. Here I don't have any firm recommendations, other than suggesting that you compare with and without a transformer or headamp. Perhaps you could first find a vintage unit of low price and the right properties, then change to a higher-quality unit once you've verified that things work.

FWIW, we also make the Erodion (www.lyraconnoisseur), which is a stepup device, but this has a 1:20 ratio, so I wouldn't recommend it for the Delos unless your phono stage gain is in the low 40-some dB range.

hth, jonathan

My suggestion - get a better phono stage.

Dear Pani: ++++++ " I have noticed that even with a cheap vintage Ortofon SUT there is a clear improvement in terms of musical flow and drama when compared with using the phonostage standalone. " +++++

IMHO a good designed and excecuted active high gain PS normally outperform a SUT. It is not easy to find out that well designed/excecuted PS. Probably your unit is not on that league.

Now, your Skala is a good performer and deserve the best amplification alternative.

A SUT is not a rocket science and forgeret about those transformer names as the ones you named. I think that if you want to experience the SUT alternative then there are some things you need to be informed.

If I was you I will look for a Denon unit. Denon is a dedicated ( for sevral years that I can't remember when started. ) manufacturer not only of first rate electronics and digital equipment but more important first rate: TT, tonearms, SUT, LP recording and especially cartridges ( mainly LOMC ones. ). IMHO these people knows exactly the cartridge needs by first hand experiences.

A good example of Denon knowledge level and skills on the SUT regards is the AU-1000, a stae of the art work. This " bay " weights 12 kg and its frequency response goes from 5 hz to 200 khz, this fr spec is critical when we are talking of SUT's. The AU-1000 is a vintage one but today you can get Denon newes design: AU-S1.

Now, you can get first quality performance with a Denon AU-340 after some modifications you must do it.
What do you get with the AU-340?:

a SUT that permit you connect two different cartridges/tonearms ( two internal transformers for each channel. ) at the same time, each one can be loaded in independent way for 3 ohms or 40 ohms and obviously with each one diffrent gain and additional to these in both cases you can by-pass to use a MM/MI cartridge with.
So, this kind of flexibility makes that unit a welcomed user friendly SUT.

Is there any problem with this kind of vintage units?, yes: internal quality wiring and input/output quality of the connectors and that's why I said: " with modifications ".

As the SUTs are not a rocket science neither the modifications. Simple as to unsoldered, solder and carefully ( make a diagram for you can know wich wire goes where and connect with. ) when you ( or a technician ) do it.

Of course that here you have another advantage that's that you choose the IC cable and its kind of quality connectors ( RCA or XLR. ) quality you want or match the best your audio system signature.
Those input and output IC cables must be soldered directly to the Denon inside board and from there directly to your PS and tonearm(s).

Other good alternative is the Entré ET-100 that permit not two but three toneamr/cartridges, by-pass on each one and three different loads and gain on each one.

IMHO these vintage alternatives not only even the best today ones but in several ways outperform it. I know because I own it and already heard it against other vintage SUTs and today ones.

I started a process to know at what level could be possible to go with SUTs against active high gain units. The ones I modified ( Audiocraft between others. ) told me that we have " something " here.

Don't worry that today SUT design advocates can tell you that the today core ( niquel ) or other SUT build material are way better because is not true: are different but not necesary better. You want niquel well you can get in a Luxman unit for less than 500.00. Do you want silver? well you can get for over 5k+ dollars on the Audio Note ( the AU-1000 beats it. ) or an Ortofon 3000 for 1K.

+++ " Check A.Dudley? " ++++, who is he? what knows he that you or me did not?

regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Dear Pani: ++++++ " I have noticed that even with a cheap vintage Ortofon SUT there is a clear improvement in terms of musical flow and drama when compared with using the phonostage standalone. " +++++

IMHO a good designed and excecuted active high gain PS normally outperform a SUT. It is not easy to find out that well designed/excecuted PS. Probably your unit is not on that league.

Now, your Skala is a good performer and deserve the best amplification alternative.

A SUT is not a rocket science and forgeret about those transformer names as the ones you named. I think that if you want to experience the SUT alternative then there are some things you need to be informed.

If I was you I will look for a Denon unit. Denon is a dedicated ( for sevral years that I can't remember when started. ) manufacturer not only of first rate electronics and digital equipment but more important first rate: TT, tonearms, SUT, LP recording and especially cartridges ( mainly LOMC ones. ). IMHO these people knows exactly the cartridge needs by first hand experiences.

A good example of Denon knowledge level and skills on the SUT regards is the AU-1000, a stae of the art work. This " bay " weights 12 kg and its frequency response goes from 5 hz to 200 khz, this fr spec is critical when we are talking of SUT's. The AU-1000 is a vintage one but today you can get Denon newes design: AU-S1.

Now, you can get first quality performance with a Denon AU-340 after some modifications you must do it.
What do you get with the AU-340?:

a SUT that permit you connect two different cartridges/tonearms ( two internal transformers for each channel. ) at the same time, each one can be loaded in independent way for 3 ohms or 40 ohms and obviously with each one diffrent gain and additional to these in both cases you can by-pass to use a MM/MI cartridge with.
So, this kind of flexibility makes that unit a welcomed user friendly SUT.

Is there any problem with this kind of vintage units?, yes: internal quality wiring and input/output quality of the connectors and that's why I said: " with modifications ".

As the SUTs are not a rocket science neither the modifications. Simple as to unsoldered, solder and carefully ( make a diagram for you can know wich wire goes where and connect with. ) when you ( or a technician ) do it.

Of course that here you have another advantage that's that you choose the IC cable and its kind of quality connectors ( RCA or XLR. ) quality you want or match the best your audio system signature.
Those input and output IC cables must be soldered directly to the Denon inside board and from there directly to your PS and tonearm(s).

Other good alternative is the Entré ET-100 that permit not two but three toneamr/cartridges, by-pass on each one and three different loads and gain on each one.

IMHO these vintage alternatives not only even the best today ones but in several ways outperform it. I know because I own it and already heard it against other vintage SUTs and today ones.

I started a process to know at what level could be possible to go with SUTs against active high gain units. The ones I modified ( Audiocraft between others. ) told me that we have " something " here.

Don't worry that today SUT design advocates can tell you that the today core ( niquel ) or other SUT build material are way better because is not true: are different but not necesary better. You want niquel well you can get in a Luxman unit for less than 500.00. Do you want silver? well you can get for over 5k+ dollars on the Audio Note ( the AU-1000 beats it. ) or an Ortofon 3000 for 1K.

+++ " Check A.Dudley? " ++++, who is he? what knows he that you or me did not?

I forgot, Audio Technica was and is an especialist on analog too with real good vintage and today SUTs designs: you can check it.

regards and enjoy the music,
R.