Putting together a reference level system. My Source is predominantly standard 16/44 played from a MacMini using iTunes and Amarra. Some of my music is purchased from iTunes and the rest is ripped from standard CD's. For my tastes in music, my high def catalogues are still limited; so Redbook 16/44 will be my primary source for quite some time.
I'm not spending DCS or MSB money. But $15-20k retail is not out of the question.
Upsampling vs non-upsampling? USB input vs SPDIF?
All opinions welcome.
And I know I need to hear them, but getting these ultra $$$ DAC's into your house for an audition ain't easy.
Looking for musical, emotional, engaging, accurate , with great dimension. Not looking for analytical and sterile.
“I don't know how many of you have played with power cords. But they make a bigger difference than one would think.”
Absolutely! And you hit it on the nail “they make a bigger difference than one would think”!
So sad that even most high end equipment has such poorly designed power supplies that special power cords become necessary! Myself I simply get rid of electronics that doesn’t work properly without these kind of band aids.
The long awaited comparison between the mighty and very well respected Baetis and my newly acquired and wonderful sounding Memory Player 64 server is upon us! Huzzah , I say!!!!
As always, enclosure first....
The Baetis has the best enclosure I have yet encountered in a modified PC. It is a completely custom enclosure with the generic layout of a PC but in a more rigid, attractive, purpose built design. It looks more like an audio component. It has an external power supply which allows the main unit to be a bit more petite than the other modified PC’s I have seen. The back was well laid out and traded a power receptacle for a power umbilical connector. I could not open the unit but I remember reading that the internal cables are upgraded and intentionally kept to minimal runs, all done to improve sound quality. There is a built in disc drive to rip CD’s and the unit boot up quickly and without issues. I will openly state that the Baetis is a better executed enclosure and, I suspect, is wired more elegantly and with more intention, than the more expensive MP64. I just don’t know how, or even if, this translates into improved sound quality.
We used JRiver on both systems. No upsampling on the MP64. Dave set the Baetis to upsample; he felt it sounded best with these settings. I ran the MP64 with my Shunyata Sigma NR and we gave the Baetis the advantage of the Enklein DAVID power cord. Both were set on StillPoint Ultra 5’s and the same LH usb cable was used.
The Baetis had been run at Dr. Dave’s until it’s 45 minute journey to my house, and was plugged in shortly after arrival. Identical files were loaded to compare. It was on and running for around 45-60 minutes prior to its first comparison. Was it warmed up and settled? Not completely; but it wasn’t ice cold either. It worked flawlessly and without issue.
We listened to the MP64 first while letting the Baetis warm up. Then to the Baetis, and then back to the MP64.
Sonically, Dave and I differed a bit in opinion. He preferred the more forward sounding Baetis while I preferred my more harmonic Memory Player. I heard a slight collapse of the front to back soundstage on the Baetis. The MP64 projected that life size top to bottom soundstage, especially with the newly installed LH usb cable. We lost some of that with the Baetis. Tonally they were similar. I heard a greater sense of depth and control in the lower frequencies, and I felt a richer sense of harmonic structure on the MP64. I think Dave preferred the slight warmth the Baetis bestowed upon the midrange. From MP64 to Baetis we both agreed we actually heard a bigger difference when going from the Wireworld to LH usb cable then swapping components, lol. We both agreed that there was a more dramatic difference palpable upon the change back to the MP64 then the initial difference going to the Baetis. It became more apparent that the MP64 offered delicacy, layered harmonics, a deeper and more realistic soundstage and image, and extended dynamics that the Baetis lacked (only in comparison to the MP64). But considering the price difference ($17k vs $48-52k’ish), the Baetis performed mesmerizingly well, and far surpassed the previous champion Aurender N10 (which makes sense considering it’s twice the price). For $17k it was just awesome! And makes me really look forward to the upcoming release of the newly revamped SGM Gen 2 server, which I believe to be around the same price.
We did, of course, try the DAVID power cord on the MP64 when we had completed our comparison. And it did the same magic to the MP64 that I’ve heard on everything else. And it pushed the MP64 that much further above the Baetis in the comparison since the Baetis was powered by the DAVID the whole time.
I congratulated Dave, The Audio Doctor, on representing some seriously fine equipment and thanked him for a fun time. After all was said and done, he had given me over 5 hours of his precious time.
I invited him to bring the Baetis back for a head to head against the SGM Gen 2 when I can arrange for it to grace my room.
The world of high end audio has some seriously awesome digital front end to consider these days. Is it maybe safe to say that “The times they are a’changing “?
Rbstehno - I’m not sure where you are thread wise, but the Mac Mini hasn’t been my source for quite some time. I’ve moved WAY beyond that. I will update my virtual system as I didn’t even think of it until you just posted. I’m assuming that’s what you are looking at. I’ve auditioned almost a dozen servers since then and am now dancing with some of the best servers out there.
I vehemently disagree with your blanket statement that “USB sucks.” I have heard usb sound meh and I have heard (and use) usb that sounds amazing! Don’t believe the hype that usb is dead: it ain’t. It’s not what you have, it’s how you use it that counts. ;)
I don't know how many of you have played with power cords. But they make a bigger difference than one would think. I am a HUGE Shunyata fan and currently have a full loom of Shunyata Sigma NR power cables throughout my system and they are excellent. I have heard many (not close to all) power cords in the $100-$4000 price range and I am continuously impressed with, and have learned to rely on, the performance of Shunyata power cables and conditioners.
That said, the power cable that the Audio Doctor has brought over several times to my room (I think he’s taunting me) is the Enklein DAVID power cable. Enklein cables are hand built, masterfully crafted pieces of audiophile jewelry, like my Crystal Cable Absolute Dream speaker wire. At $8,800- a cable they are nigh unreachable but the improvement on any component you power them with is astounding.
Going from my already expensive Sigma NR to the DAVID yields a denser and more extended low frequency with a slight refinement of the overall presentation as if the music is being served on a silver platter instead of a wood cutting board. There is more presence in the upper registers that doesn’t cause brightness, but adds clarity and resolution without being offensive or overstated; it’s more a sense of correctness than added accuracy. The overall construction of the presentation just seams more masterfully recreated, if that makes sense. And that’s only using ONE DAVID on the server!!!! I would need 6!!!! But just thinking about those results gets me a bit hot and bothered.... ;)
Dave took his Enklein DAVID home with him and will continue taunting me with them with every visit I am sure. I now know that sense of remorse reviewers feel when they need to send back equipment that makes an incontrovertible improvement in their system but is just beyond their reach.
You couldn’t get any worse source music than iTunes. Plus you are limited by using a Mac mini with amarra. Plus having a Mac in an audio room is the worse. I had this setup a few years ago and replaced it with an Auralic Aries and SQ was much better. Even with the Aries I used a AQ Diamond USB cable to an external dac. USB sucks! I sold that setup and went with the PS Audio directstream with the bridge 2 and SQ is fantastic. i moved the Mac mini into the basement with 24TB of raid disk using OS X server for all my music and communicated to the DS using 1G Ethernet
Thanks to Dave, The Audio Doctor, for stopping by and bringing all those fun toys. See the YouTube video for images and Dave explaining the gear.
What he brought : -Baetis music server (I’ll let Dave post about the nuances of the external power supply system used) - from what I understand a pretty standard example of the Baetis. Supposedly there is a higher current power supply available. -Enklein David power cord -Enklein usb cord -Light Harmonic Lightspeed 20G usb cable
I’ll start with the usb cables (and will post the Baetis to MP64 comparison in another post). The Enklein cable has about 200 hours on it while the LH 20G was almost new. The Enklein is beautifully built with very heavy usb connectors and stalks that are very stiff but appear strong and resistant to bending and damage. If you need a tight turn off of the unit, these are not the cables for you. They are wrapped in a golden yellow woven material that is attractive and strong. The cable is expensive for a usb cable and looks expensive. The LH 20G is two smaller cables coming off of the usb connector which is strong and simply implemented with heat wrap connecting the plug to the wires. It is very flexible and looks resistant to damage over time. There is a black box in the middle of the double cable run. Instead of trying to explain it, here is LH’s web page on the cables text: “With our new LightSpeed 20G USB Cable we enhance two key things: (1) Completely bypass the USB sending device’s noisy 5V power supply with an ultra low noise 5V battery based power supply (2) Regenerate and re-clock the USB high speed data stream with our “Regenerate and Revive” circuitry that exceeds the USB 3.0 standard.”
The box is powered and has a battery that recharges with a micro usb plus and charger. I have no idea how long the charge lasts but I would Imagine quite a while.....
We first listened to my “stock” system using my tried and true Wireworld Platinum Starlight usb cable (most recent model) between my Memory Player 64, which now has just over 1000 hours on it, and the LH Davinci DAC. The Wireworld usb cable probably has 5-7k hours on it! The sound was familiar and wonderful. Soundstage was wide, deep and with very nice image specificity. Ok, a quick swap of the usb cables to the Enklein and Dave and I “dropped the digital needle” on the same three tracks. Wow! Did we change cables or components?!? The texture of vocals became more layered, subtlety of tone was better, dynamics improved and the soundstage became deeper and about 6-10” taller. I would say it took a step towards realism. I was expecting an improvement as Enklein makes some seriously good cables, but I wasn’t expecting THIS big a difference! I’m already picturing the Enklein in my system for a long time, when we hit the stop button and swap out the Enklein for the LH 20G. We hit play starting at the top track, and almost instantly Dave and I look at each other in astonishment! The vocals jumped a foot higher, to normal human height. The bass became more taught and extended, the entire drum set suddenly appeared IN my room. The upright bass wasn’t just better, it was there! It was natural and just flowed easily without effort, yet displayed dynamics that I had not heard before. If the Enklein was wow, the LH 20G was Holy $&!? !!!
Now I don’t know, and strongly assume there is, a designed synergy between the LH 20G and the LH Davinci 2 DAC. And the Enklein was exceptional, and may sound best with other dacs. But with my system the LH 20G was mouth dropingly amazing! It sounded like a massive component upgrade.
I can’t wait for the guys to come over and hear the system and see their reaction.
Dave was kind enough to leave the 20G with me to burn in a bit more before I make a purchase decision. But I don’t think it will be leaving my system, ever!
Thanks Mr. Audio Doctor!!
For those that want to upgrade your DAC, upgrade your usb cable first! It may be just the upgrade your looking for. ——
See the next post for a comparison between the Baetis and Memory Player.
the output stage runs in pure Class A it actually gets hot, so they are running some actual juice through it
So is the output stage of the Overdrive SX, as well as the other stages. I expect my output stage is more linear than DaVinci.
They are focusing on their relationship with Tesla from what I understand; not right or justifiable, but they made their bed and now have to lie in it.
What is their relationship with Tesla? I am an owner and stockholder.
Should existing, operating companies use kickstarter? Maybe startups...
I can attest to the LH build quality and Sonics, that’s for sure.
I believe Dave is correct in LH’s Kickstarter delivery. I think they have caught up on most if not all at this time. They are slow slow slow. They are focusing on their relationship with Tesla from what I understand; not right or justifiable, but they made their bed and now have to lie in it.
But man can they make a top shelf DAC!!!
See you in a few hours Dave. Hopefully with the Baetis in tow. Dave’s bringing over some Uber usb cables as well: Enklein and the LH usb cable. I can’t wait to hear them!
Nitewolf, the Davinci has two completely separate dacs in one chassis.
There is a pure resisitor ladder as well as a sigma delta engine for DSD and both enginges sound fantastic.
There is a lot of innovative ideas in the Davinci and the excution is flawless the entire chassis is cut out of two billets of aluminu, the output stage runs in pure Class A it actually gets hot, so they are running some actual juice through it.
As per Kickstarter most of the people got their products, LH labs is slow as hell in delivering product especially new products.
"Now we’ve decided to push the boundaries once again with Da Vinci MKII’s 32/768 kHz PCM resistor ladder DAC engine. And history will repeat itself.
Da Vinci MKII’s second decoding engine is a pure Delta-Sigma DAC capable of decoding DSD signals up to DSD256."
As I thought, the PCM decoder is a resistor ladder circuit. The DSD engine is Delta Sigma.
Personally have no respect for LH Labs, as they kickstarted the Vi dac and took money from customers without delivery. But doesn't mean they can't build a good dac.
Imgoodwithtools, we had a customer bring in his Berkley Ref 1 which I know in'st the latest howerver we compared it to our Davinci Dual Dac MK I which isn't as good as the newer MK II. So it was a fair title match up last series of each head to head.
The Davinci was signifigently more like an analog source with a bigger soundstage and a more holographic sound stage. The Berkly was superb I think we also compared both to the EMM Labs Da 2 the new $25k one, and both of these dacs were better than the Emm.
You should listen to one if you can, they are very rare dac's but as Matt will attest to one of the most remarkable pieces of digital out there.
Matt has been one of the most humble people on Audiogon. I've asked him several questions through PM and he has always been respectful. He's vey hesitant to be overly critical of a component. Matt keep being who you are, I submit you help make Audiogon a great place for constructive and honest dialog.
We've always had some twists and turns and we will get back to gear very soon.
Of course the name was chosen for a reason. They love it when they get their free pub on boards as they don't have to have high overhead and can make affordable products that work nicely within their price range. It's a great concept and they make many happy.
There is no be all end all in audio for obvious reasons that have been talked about in nearly every thread on every forum all over the net. Maybe even the dark net, but I don't play there so I don't know for sure, lol. ((😆 that's my way of saying joke).
I've gotten to know Matt, Richfield, Steve and so many of you because of this thread. Nothing else, just this thread. I've gotten to network with Matt specifically and met others here who post. Many of you are dealers or manufacturers. ALL of you are great guys who share the same passion that I do. Gentlemen all of you (no grammar police as I purposely wrote it that way ;)).
Matt and others have kept this thread going and kept it civil, when most so many of these bumps would have blown up other threads. Teh same will happen here, because 99% of us what it that way. Most of us open up AG daily and look to see who's posted what and what gear are we talking about today. For many of us, we can't afford the TOTL stuff, but it's fun to dream and it's fun to learn. I also want to know what the 'best' gear is on the top end and it allows me to learn more about what is in my own wheel house. I'm sure most of you are do the same. I know that so many who read this thread and don't post feel that way.
I'd be remiss if I didn't mention something about Matt. He's become a very good friend (same with Richfield and Sam isn't far behind). We don't see eye to eye on much of audio, but we are very very close most of the time. At first I thought that I disagreed with him more than I agreed, but over the years now, I've come to realize that we do like most of the same gear as we both need tonality first. It's fun as we bounce so much off of each other daily. As you can tell, it's his passion. He's a great friend and he's honest. What he has, that many on the net lack is class. I've never seen anyone on the internet (I'm much more heavily involved in Oklahoma Univ athletics than audio and I spend hours and hours daily listening to music and networking in that area) react to some of the stuff he does with such class. Many of us have no filters (thanks MS!) and can be contentious. We are brutally honest and just post thoughts and don't always think (again, screw you MS). Matt does the opposite. He will take valuable time to retort to a post that may rub him the wrong way or if he knows something isn't fact etc...
He's one of many I've seen on this thread who won't put something else down even if he didn't like it at all. Sorry Matt, but it's very true as no one likes everything (why both Wilson and Vandersteen can be profitable for so long as they are so opposite of each other).
I'm in touch with at least 6 of the folks who read or post on this thread on a consistent basis as I've said and everyone I spoke with about this issue felt that Matt was pretty funny and not putting down the product. For those who have taken the time to read this whole thread, you'd have known that Matt has and would never put down a product. He'll be honest if he didn't love something, but no way does he put down a product. Especially a decent one that a couple of you enjoy.
This situation, like a couple of others before it will play itself out. On Wed, I'm heading to Matt's house for the first time to audition The Memory Player and built in (or possibly external) DAC and I can't wait. First time I get to see and hear your room and I can't wait to hear this piece of equipment that I've heard SOOOO much about over the last couple of months. Very exciting and what this thread is truly about adn why it will always stand the test of time. I"m blessed to be getting a ride over to Matt's as I wouldn't be able to physically drive right now. I wonder what music we will get to audition. Sorry to break away from the previous schitt, but it really is all about the music as well as the gear isn't it? (if you made it this far, thanks).
Matt, no need for an apology (in case it was directed at me) as I was neither offended nor insulted. I enjoy this thread (even when it diverges from the primary intent) and now your videos and am looking for more insights and learning via both media.
Thank you for your recommendation on 'The Greatest Showman.' I like both leads and the 90% audience rating on Rotten Tomatoes speaks volumes. I'm looking forward to being emotionally moved.
And if everyone noticed, I didn’t say anything except complement all involved in the recent reincarnation of the very same R2R/DS DAC conversation. Simply because it was informational, educational, respectful and completely avoided any absolute statements. In this hobby, there are no absolutes. Only opinions. And we have all learned from the great input recently posted from this great community!
I have watched over this thread for years and always tried to keep it respectful, free of drama and conflict. As a result we have nurtured a community of open opinion, educated involvement and mutual respect. I take enormous pride in what this thread has become.
Im not sure why, but I think that George takes offense that I feel a sense of paternity and responsibility towards this thread and act as a pseudo-moderator. As I said before, I sincerely apologize to George and anyone else if I have ever said or implied anything directly or interpreted as offensive!
A prime example of how interpretation varies amongst individual readers. With a name like Schitt it is the perfect and inevitable target for word play. I believe that the company intentionally chose this name for this very purpose and expected effect.
Matt’s suggestion to George to start a thread regarding R2R DACs seems to be the logical next step given his repetitive and numerous posts on this subject. It’s apparent to me that George has very strong opinions concerning R2R conversion. This would provide an outlet for his beliefs and perspective. Charles
George, not sure why your waiting for a confrontation with me. It’s like your looking for one. Just waiting for me to post just the right opportunity and then pounce. I apologize if I have offended you in some way. I’m like the least offensive person on the planet. Let’s bury the hatchet and move on.
Really looking forward to the Baetis coming tomorrow. Stay tuned.
Actually, I took it as a joke; I saw it for what it was and didn't give it a second thought. It did not appear to be an inside joke or kidney punch - just a little fun. Matt has been the OP of decorum and civility and provided a wealth of knowledge for us all to benefit from for a number of years now. I think in the spirit of all things Dac-related, we should get this massively-popular 78-page thread back on track.
mattnshilp OPWho would buy a total piece of Schitt like that?!!
Sorry. Had to be done!! 😇
david_tenMatt, You may have intended it as a joke, but it does not read like a joke. I can see how the second line "Sorry, Had to be done!!" would lead one to a very different conclusion.
+1 David, I noticed his post is now removed, but it went a bit deeper than that, from way back.
Quote mattenshlip: "Hi guys. For the first time on this thread, I'm putting an end to this. No more R2R commentary and no responses. You have made your opinion very very clear. If you want to continue I encourage you to start your own thread about how awesome you think R2R is to the exclusion of all else."
Ok. Thankfully the moderator erased my post. It never happened. Except that we all now know that GeorgeHifi thinks I select equipment based on price and bling. Maybe I do. ;)
To move on....
Everyone NEEDS to go see The Greatest Showman. To true music lovers, it’s an emotional roller coaster. I had that lump in my throat after for almost 15 minutes. Couldn’t talk, on the boarder of laughing and crying. For those that know what I’m talking about, you get it. It was truly wonderful. Take your partner and make a special night of it!!!!
Matt has been nothing short of a class act from the inception of this thread... Thank you Doc for all of your time,energy, and honesty that we all have benefited from in dacdom land...
David_Ten - I apologize if It was interpreted that way. The “it had to be done” comment meant that a joke about the name “Schitt” had to be done since no one else had made one. I have ever ever , in 4 years, insulted a product by using profanity or degrading anything or anyone. I have said I don’t like something and then explained why.
I’m not sure how a personal insult would be justified even if I had meant what you suggest.
Apologies to anyone who took offense at my statement. It was a joke. Not an insult.
Matt, You may have intended it as a joke, but it does not read like a joke. I can see how the second line "Sorry, Had to be done!!" would lead one to a very different conclusion.
Onwards to learning about DACs and your journey with them. I have to catch up on a few videos...Google's been notifying me. : )
Wow GeorgeHifi, my statement was a simple joke about the word “schitt” which people have been doing forever and, I am pretty sure, the marketers of Schitt counted on to help get their name known. We all know it’s a super performer for the money; a great value and a brilliant marketing campaign. My statement was an utter and complete joke.
Your statement, on the complete other hand, was a spiteful, intentional insult meant to belittle my entire process, my system and a direct and obvious personal insult.
I wont justify a response. I’ll allow the thread to continue on the previous topic without interruption.
I think this is still top DAC. The Schitt isn't in this convo. Guys, I would counter that many of us have listened to it vs a few other similarly priced DAC's and we liked the Ayre Codex better. It also costs less at 1800. This is a very competitive price range and yes, the Schitt is very good, but so are many others.
The same thing holds true at the top end of things. Matt has a system that is different than any of us. There are many great DAC's that folks need to audition. We all have different ears, tastes etc... so there is no absolute. Heck, I had Steve's OSDE/SE adn LOVED it. I still think it is one of the top DAC's I've listened to and I've heard many of the upper crust DAC's. I even got to hear the Trinity DAC some years ago (was the best by far that I've heard, but it's been too long to really say what it sounds like now vs the others).
I'm sure the Schitt guys will jump all over me, but it's like taking about any 5k speaker and saying it's a great buy in a thread talking about Vandersteen System 9 (yes, my favorite so far), Tidal's, Wilsons, Magico, B&W and any other speaker that's in the 80k plus range. They can't compete regardless of your ears, room or system. JMHO and those of a few others on this thread.
For the money, the Schitt Yggdrasil. Everything you read about this thing is true and its convinced me that R2R design is the most musical and natural sound. I would be surprised if I ever purchase another delta-sigma design again.
For the money, the Schitt Yggdrasil. Everything you read about this thing is true and its convinced me that R2R design is the most musical and natural sound. I would be surprised if I ever purchase another delta-sigma design again.
I’ve been fiddling behind the scenes with some really cool isolation pucks and cylinders and such. I’ve got some more coming in and then I’ll post a report. I think these little guys are VERY equipment dependent so I’ll try to give some general guidelines as well as my specific results in my system.
Stay tuned.
Also, Dr. Dave the Audio Doctor is coming Monday to bring some usb cables and his Baetis to play. That should be super fun.
Wisnon. You’ve been a Lampy fan forever! I think their newer stuff (GG and forward) have the quality of production to be taken seriously. I have heard several rooms at shows with great current Lampy gear! I’m sure you get a lot of enjoyment out of your system !!
Still dont have any Dac envy at all, with my current updated Lampi GG 1 with superclocked USB and separate discrete Ladder PCM and DSD256 attached AND separate chipless DSD512 engine. 2 Jacks in 1 box, so to speak!
I have a host of 13 rectifiers (most vinatge and bought for like $10 a piece) and 10 pairs of DHT output tubes including some exotics like the EML anniv mesh 45 globe and the vaunted Kron 242. I cant tailor the sound to any genre and can look forward to "upgrades" when trying exciting new tube combos. Fun with extreme SQ.
I will couple that 50% of the equation with optimal transport, ie my DIY linear power supplied i7 server that is audio optimzed Winserver2016 with the current champion combo of Roon/HQP or the FULL Lauferteknik software bundle on their turnkey SLC NAND SSD solution. optimized BIOS, OS with revised byte structure, Full IDEAS suite, Stealth Mode Win10 OS, DeFractionalized storage, clock mapper for extreme jitter reduction, and a host of other useful app...mated to a matched JRiver 23 structure. The Win2016 is already superb and I expect some step up with the MPlayer environment. I will use the Win2016 setup for upsampling and the JRiver MP setup for native rate. Dual boot OS on separate SSDs and separated 5v LPSUs. Should be a Transport setup worthy of the stellar GG.
Al, you are dead on. It’s a repro of the Philco 90. I couldn’t find an affordable original. I’ll show my other trinkets on a deprecate video. Thanks for noticing.
Matt, I enjoyed watching all four of the videos, including the one that just went up with the live piano playing. And on my computers, at least, the somewhat low volume and low lighting weren’t any problem at all.
In fact to me the only slight downside of the low lighting, as a collector of antique radios, was that I couldn’t tell for sure if the cathedral radio on the left side was an original or a modern repro. I’m guessing it was a modern repro modelled a bit loosely on the 1930s Philco 90 :-)
Matt, I used to love those speakers lol. Too funny. That Brinkmann is a great Dac. I’ve heard it a few times. It really shined last year in the Vandersteen room at one of the shows. My Ayre QX 5 has a hair more detail, but it won’t touch the musicality or size of sound stage that the Brinkmann has. It’s also twice the price but this is about best.
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