Another sign SACD is dying

"..I even love the rounded jewelery case"

Yes. Loke those Telarc jewel cases. All CD cases should be thus.

Since forever have been sick and tired of the seals they put on CD's for USA consumer consumption. For many years I've cussed the "good for sellers, bad for customers" way of packaging CD's. When I purchase a CD without the asinine shrink wrap and the underlying sticky seals - I say ahhhh. I can do without the stickers put on outside the jewel cases too. Look like crap and impossible to remove without sticky residue. These issues alone drive some music consumers to downloads.

Quadophile...Well said! I enjoyed my SQ LPs, some of which were really good. I still have the Vinyl but not the decoder. I have tried Dolby PLII with them, but it doesn't work too well.

In my opinion it is against the nature of an audiophile/music lover to be a whiner. I embraced almost every format that came along and enjoyed every minute that I spent with it. Dying is inevitable, be it any format or us.

Happy listening to everyone on this thread! :)

Circuit City? Best Buy?? You've got to be kidding me that these outlets ever carried any audiophile audio gear or recordings. They are MASS MARKETERS. Certainly they impact the market. But look to the creativity / quality coming out of the smaller producers. These guys/gals don't have a chance at getting into the bins of the mass retailers. They're reaching us through the internet and to some degree in the larger metro areas through the single-outlet music stores. Did anyone here think that JC Penny's was the trendsetter in music selection in the 60's? Who needs a Britney Spears SACD?? If you love music then support it.

Smw30yahoocom, I understand your point. My audio dealer gave me an advise - which is a very nice from customer point of view - don't go for SACD. He asked me to stick to the RBCD and enjoy the music rather than jumping into a format which has not taken off. But it was my decision based on my listening preference that I decided to go for the SACD. I have exchanged emails (friendly ones) with fellow audiogoners/audio-asylum inmates, who claim that when the CD players go upwards of $2000 the difference between SACD/CD ceases to exist. I listen to advices and make up my decision.
Robm321 and Nrchy have a good points here. And that lead me to find out more on the newer formats coming up. I am not starting a debate here - but just an analogy or thinking loud - if you may. I think the Blu-Ray is based on PCM because Sony feels that if they had gone the DSD way, then they would loose the market share. This means that SACD is the only medium with DSD. One more thing - whenever I think of DVD - I think of VIDEO. The same applies to Blu-Ray...it is psychological. What I am trying to say is that a new format doesn't mean that it will take off in the AUDIO department. It may be a hit in the VIDEO department. Look at DVD-Video and DVD-Audio.
So, I believe that SACD will remain a niche market.

I guess the feeling I got when I left CC was that if it was going so well, they would continue to carry players, etc., regardless of it being highend or just midfi. I also went to the only local highend dealer in town and the salesclerk basically told me the same thing, that it just wasn't doing well. That doesn't mean that it's dead, but will probably just be a niche market. I think a lot people felt like me, that they were being pulled in 2 different directions without a clear path. It wasn't really the machines as much as the software. I would like to see a better format survive, but I also just want to go into any store in town and buy CD's for my player, not have to special order them. I walked into Sam Goody's approx. a year ago and the manager had never even heard of SACD's. (They may have them now, I haven't been there since) A universal machine just didn't appeal to me either, possible because there could be glitches about playing certain discs, etc.

All that can be said of Circuit City and Best Buy is that they are barometers of what the mass market is buying.

Like it or not, Joe and Jane Normal aren't going to pay $30 for what they are told is a "better" CD. Their desire is for a handheld device that can hold 4000 CD's, and the audio quality is almost entirely irrelevant to them.

Really, the only surefire omen that SACD is doomed is that it is Sony's baby, and Sony has a long and proud history of dropping the ball. ;) Although, in all fairness, DVD-A is a pretty big non-event to the general public as well.

On the other hand, there are many small specialty labels, such as Channel Classics in Holland, that have dived into SACD with both feet, and are doing great work, not to mention bigger labels like Telarc and Deutsche Gramophon who are pressing in CD, SACD, and DVD-A. It doesn't hurt to cover your bases, for sure.

I haven't taken the time to wade through all this animus, but when companies like dcs continue to make new SACD and have plans to release another next year, can the future really be soo bleak?

My point was that records are still being used widely by audiophiles but you won't find them at Curcuit City or Best Buy. So, because they may not carry something anymore doesn't mean that it won't exist in the audiophile market anymore.

So, a salesperson at Curcuit City making a comment about SACD doesn't make a good argument that it will not be available.

Why wait when there're now over 3,500 SACD titles available? BTW, John Mayer's "Room For Squares" SACD is very good.

I never got into SACD mostly because of the format war between that and DVD audio. I wanted to wait until one of them became the clear winner, and when that didn't really happen I just decided to stick with redbook cd's for now. I will admit that CC and BB aren't highend but they did carry SACD players, etc. for quite a while. Maybe something even better will evolve from these 2 formats in the near future. Hopefully by then companies will realize that working together towards a common goal will benefit them far more than arguing and bickering over who has delivered the best format.

I haven't read all of the comments. However if your looking for SACD go to borders. they have a great selection and the best classical CD selection i have seen in tucson. I was amazed at how many they have. 3 isles of classical CD and SACD's. circuit city had two spaces, and about 2 isles for RAP! eech.

Jadem6...The only audio piece I ever bought at Best Buy is a Panasonic SA-XR70, and it is one heck of a good item for my TV/HT rig. With the right speakers it really could be a primary audio system.

I don't know how you got details of my system, but you are mostly right. You forgot my Sony PSX-800 TT, with servoed linear tracking biotracing arm, probably the most high tech item in my house and a superb performer although not "certified" audiophile gear. (It cost almost a grand back in 1980). Also my PS Audio outboard preamp, one of the first to use passive (no feedback) RIAA equalization.
Also there are the rear channels, a second DEQ2496, Kenwood LO7M power amps, and Madisound Odin speakers. Also the Maggies are retrofitted with upscale passive crossovers.

Take offence? I don't do that.

Happy New Year!

I was just joking around, You are correct, the mass market is Circuit City, and you are well above that. Sorry if you took offence, just a little fun...

Eldartford, Judging from the system below (yours) you clearly frequent Curciut City for your audio advice. To each their own, to each their own. Now as a self discribed "sucker for spacial..." perhaps you would like some advice on...

Denon 2900 with Underwood mod
Rotel 1066 PrePro
Ashley electronic crossover
3 CarverPro ZR1600 power amps biamped for front speakers
3 Magneplanar MG1.6
3 multidriver custom subwoofer systems
Behringer DEQ2496 Equalizer

Now then, yes I may be a snob in your view.

Milpai...Of course BB and CC are in to selling mass produced products at low cost. That's how you make money in the real world, so that you can afford to buy exotic audio equipment, sports cars, motor boats, airplanes, etc.

Smw30yahoocom, a lot depends on the entire system. Also it depends on the recording of the SACD itself. I have not yet come across a SACD that is too bright for my taste. I have noticed that SACDs that are PCM converted are a bit more brighter than purely DSD. But nonethless they are thoroughly enjoyable.
Eldartford, BB and CC are not about this hobby we love so much - they are into selling mass produced products. I did not get your point about real world. If you are refering to costs - you really don't need $2000 speaker wired to get into this hobby. Check out my system. I can bet you it is way better than the premium DVD based systems available at BB or CC. And less expensive at sound per dollar. My system is not an all-rounder - no DVD - but that is not what my hobby is about :-)

Robm321...Circuit City may not have a clue about audiophiles, but audiophiles (some of them anyway) don't grasp the real world, which is where Circuit City and Best Buy rule. How else can you explain $2000 speaker wires?

circuit city doesn't have a clue about audiophiles. I'm sure they would have said that records have gone by the waste side years ago. I guess we feed off of the waste side.

I went into my local Circuit City store the other day and they had taken out the SACD demo that had been installed for quite awhile. I asked them about it and they said that SACD had "gone by the wayside" to repeat their exact words. I have only listened to it on mid-fi systems. I thought it sounded crisp and detailed, but maybe just a little bright. It made me want to listen to it with highend equipment to get a better feel for it.

I have embraced the SACD format and am using a Marantz SA12-S1. I do think it sounds better than redbook, and I am pleased at the new titles that are coming out. Elusive Disc has 20 something pages of SACDs and it is increasing all the time. Many are classical but there is also Dire Straits and Roy Orbison and and Elton John and Patricia Barber and lots of jazz. My local Best Buy has decreased their SACD offerings (only local place to buy). I don't worry about the format's longevity. I will just buy all I can and enjoy long term. My 2-channel listening is not mainstream anyway. I also have cds but no LPs.
John Dean

I think most SACD audiophiles have redbook too and quite a few of them have TT's as well, so I can't imagine why they would be snobs about what they listen to.

Eldartford, if you find anyone bash a format - disregard that reply. It is the worst a true audio enthusiast can do.
To be honest with you - I really don't have in-depth technical knowledge about PCM or DSD. But the 2 bosses on either side of my head decide what they like. And if they like something, I better get it, rather than the brain deciding what to get - based on the technical write-ups or reviews. Ofcourse, there are occassions on where the 2 bosses and the reviews match.
Enjoy your music and take it easy.....

Milpai..."Snobish"?? Actually it seems to me that some SACD audiophiles have a snobish attitude about DVDA, those pesky PCM discs that have so many non-audio features. It's a bit like the way vinyl guys look down their noses at digital.

Yes Robm321. His another thread is "Too snobbish for SACD as it exists?"...Nice. And he is no where on this thread lately.

With Blu-Ray gaining the edge on HD-DVD, Sony may eventually get its way to slip DSD/SACD in there.

The creator of this post probably was hoping to banwagon a bunch of people into thinking SACD was dead, so he can avoid upgrading his redbook player. It's funny how it turned into a very hopeful outlook for SACD. And this is based on fact not just hype.

We love SACD so much...don't we??? Will do anything to keep this thread going!!

Interesting article I saw today:

Media, tech companies team up on high-definition TV

By Robert MacMillan

NEW YORK (Reuters) - Several media and electronics companies on Wednesday said they are developing technology guidelines that could make it easier for people to enjoy high- definition television programing throughout their home- entertainment systems.

The guidelines would allow people to transfer high- definition TV and movies, audio and other entertainment between their television sets, computers and other gadgets without the hassle of multiple connecting wires and remote controls, the High-Definition Audio-Video Network Alliance said.

The group's founders include Samsung Electronics Co. Ltd. and General Electric Co.'s (GE) NBC Universal television networks.

Other participants include cable operator Charter Communications Inc. (CHTR), electronics manufacturer Mitsubishi Digital Electronics America Inc. (6503), JVC and server computer-maker Sun Microsystems Inc. (SUNW).

The group will make it possible for people to watch their video when and where they want, said Richard Doherty, research director at the Envisioneering Group.

"It's your choice since there's only going to be a fixed number of slots in a week where (broadcasters) can put a three- hour movie or a three-hour sporting event," Doherty said.

Such convenience typically requires a "rat's nest of wires," he said.

The first compatible products will go on sale around the 2006 holiday season, said Heemin Kwon, the group's president and a vice president and general manager at Samsung Electronics Co .

They also are expected to be on display at the Consumer Electronics Show in Las Vegas, Nevada, in January.

One of the group's goals is to let people simultaneously watch, pause and record up to five video channels on high- definition televisions. It also is developing a way to let people use a single remote to control all entertainment devices on a home network.

The companies said they plan to work with industry organizations such as the Consumer Electronics Association, CableLabs and the Motion Picture Association of America on the guidelines.

In an attempt to prevent piracy of digital programing, home networks using the standard will be outfitted with copyright protection that would still let people shift content between devices, the group said.

John Mayer, that's great news!!! I don't know Switchfoot, please tell me it's not my age showing.

JD,

Then going 10 years out from a fully realized, all-in-one box solution, people will want to get back to the more "organic" quality of music and equipment that they "remembered as a kid back in '06". It will come full circle LOL :-)

Since my last post on December 1, almost 60 additional SACD titles have been added to sa-cd.net.

Today, Sony announced 2 more SACD releases....John Mayer's "Room For Squares" and Switchfoot's "The Beautiful Letdown".

Why don't you beleive it has 10 years left. Even if there were no more titles coming out, it would last that long?
There are new players and SACD's coming out still, not to mention the equipment that is used to make the recordings. Do you think in 2-3 years all the SACD players and SACD's will dry up and not be used? And given that another format is at least that far away (assuming it happens at all), what else is there to get into as far as high rez? With a lack of an alternate format, SACD will be milked for years to come.

The flaw in your remarks Tvad is believing any industry moves that fast. The development of HDTV was appropriated by the legislature in the early '80's after not supporting the development of the semiconductor and losing countless dollars to Japan. Despite Federal funding, the universities were not able to produce an agreed upon format from which to develop until ten years later. Today there are more video formats battling it out than audio, and no clear path to HDTV in every home is seen by me.

Now you propose delivering audio through the same satellite network despite the inherent flaws they have encountered to date. Yes the technology is in place to do what you propose, but the logistics are another thing.

I also would like to draw your attention to Bill Gate's news conference a couple years back where he proposed ALL media will be run through the internet. He took the first step in that venture with the introduction of his beta program "Windows Media" which is now the standard operation system being sold to individuals. The same can be said for Steve Jobs with ipod. If you for one second believe these two men are on the wrong track, and your concept is the right track, then I must LOL. These two men will destroy music quality for all. Small labels will have no interest in fighting for satellite time and bandwidth when they already have a widely accepted system to deliver. SACD may die, but logic tell me SACD is the natural progression from DSD. The comment made that this is more work than vinyl is simply wrong. The recordings are more often than not being stored in DSD. Converting from DSD is no more work than vinyl, in fact it's less. DSD is SACD. As to getting approvals by the artists and working through royalties, that is no different from vinyl to disk, either way the legal arrangements agreed to by the artists must be followed.

So my belief is 180 degrees from yours, but for different reasons. Bill Gates owns the technology industry and controls the direction computers are going. The entertainment industry is too large for him to simply turn his back on. Now whether our data is send to our computer via fiber optics or satellite dishes makes little difference. The end location is a hard drive to store compressed files on. I challenge you to find me a computer that process audio at the EMM Meitner DAC quality. If it's out there, it is a long way from Best Buy, and the masses you discuss.

I have no reason to believe the computer (the future/ and present) file server for all our media will be developed to the degree our sound systems are. Hell some of us have power supplies on our DACs bigger than the computer boxes sitting under our desks.

So in summation I hardly see adding boxes to our electronics collections (boxes meaning satellite decoders. I assume the HDTV recorder will not do audio, and neither will do date) So I have more stuff to add to the VCR, DVD-V, processors, amps... No I think Gates has one box in mind. One computer with his operating system handling all information. My assumption is it will come through the internet, a land based system (for the most part) and the transfer of this date will eventually go through wire cables, fiber optic cables, satellite??? Steve Jobs appears to be focused on the portable information delivery system, and ????? has the satellite system. Best I can guess is those satellites will be quite busy once consumers demand a better phone system. Satellite phones are used all over the world, but not here, we have some goofy "cell" system that is so inherently flawed it is sickening. Sat phones, now that's the future.

jd

PS, Sorry for the typos. Whatever happened to the edit feature?

Click.

:)

Robm321, I don't agree with you about a 10+ year timeline, and this has never been part of the discussion as far as I'm aware.

I believe we have a disconnect because of semantics here. Let me be clear, and then I'm going to call it a day on this topic.

I'm not debating the necessity for creation of a new Hi Rez recording format. I don't necessarily believe the recording format used to create SACD silver discs - DSD, or whatever it is - is going to fade away, although in time it could be supplanted by a superior method. What I'm specifically referring to is the silver disc delivery method of the DSD recording...the SACD (Super Audio Compact Disc). I believe DSD audio could be, and will be delivered via another, less expensive method , in a very short amount of time...months, and certainly less than a year, and I base my supposition based on the current delivery of HDTV. All that is holding back delivery of DSD audio via broadband is available bandwidth and an apppropriate music file format. You're right, though, this is guesswork on my part. Isn't the bulk of what is being discussed here based on guesswork? Thus far, I have not read a single post written by an expert in marketing, production or delivery of music.

In my view, the SACD silver discs will decline, and eventually disappear as will Redbook CD silver discs, and DVD-A silver discs, and DVD silver discs, especially concerning audio-only recordings. Broadband delivery is the wave of the future, in my opinion. None of us knows how soon the transfer will be completed, but I'm betting it's sooner rather than later. One only has to look at the availability of USB connections on commercially produced DVD machines like those from Denon, and Cary (someone here mentioned the Cary, I believe) to know that even the hardware manufacturers are covering their bases and assisting the consumer with the inevitable transition.

So, to recap; I don't believe DSD recordings, on which SACD silver discs are based, are going away. I do believe production of the discs themselves will decline, as will Redbook CDs and other silver dics. And, I believe delivery of the DSD recordings (or other Hi Rex formats) will be done via broadband methods.

I hope I've made my position clearer.

This is not a Save-The-World discussion. It's been brain massaging entertainment, but it's time for me to change the channnel.

Click.

:)

Well if you are right Tvad (we are all giving our best guess), then all the more reason to have an SACD (or universal) player because it may be 10 years + before a legitimate amount of music is cut for another hi-rez format. And it will be 10 years plus before SACD fades away (at least) assuming it will.

I don't know but a decade of my life has value. Is there anyone really waiting for another format?

The argument that SACD will die because the masses won't get into it is not valid since LP's are still around and clearly not something the masses listen to.

Perhaps. I would point to a difference between vinyl and SACD digital, however, which is that vinyl caters to niche hobbyists that prefer analog recordings, while SACD discs are a digital format which can be supplanted by another more cost effective delivery method in the future. My point is that the SACD as a delivery method may die away, but that Hi Rez digital will likely survive in another form.

lps can be made using existing anologue or digital masters.....in other words, no investment.... its found money.........remastered sacds cost tons of money and you have to deal with the artist, etc for additional permissions and roylties.....yes niche products can survive, but sacd, like the laserdisc,beta,cd video, digital tape,the minidisc,dvda, etc., just isn't paying for itself. the hybrids will even disappear soon. the release itself, not the technology, drove those sales and the additional expense simply wasnt worth it.

TVAD(GRANT) and JD thank you for being both gentlemen
in this topic, I have learned a lot,YOU ARE BOTH TO
BE ADMIRE, TO KEEP COOL ON THIS THREAD.Thanks

The argument that SACD will die because the masses won't get into it is not valid since LP's are still around and clearly not something the masses listen to.

There are such things as niche products that can survive without the full general public support.

Kumba-ya, JD, kumba-ya.

:)

And to your surprise, that is exactly my point too. Somehow you and I have not clicked on this thread, I guess we just see a different ending.

I again want to thank you for the civility of this discussion. This is without question the most fun I have had disagreeing on Audiogon in years. Tvad, you are in my admiration.

audio software(cd's, lp's, sacds ,dvd's) have collectively taken a 25-30% tumble for the last two years running. the slack isn't being offset by purchased downloads either. a virtual culture shift is making music less important (to own)for many

Exactly my point made above. Much of the decline in purchased music is related to the increase in computer/video gaming and the use of the internet. It'a an entertainment paradigm shift.

Small labels, XRCD and other high quality sources are not bulk produced. That's the whole point.

A perfect reason to expect the SACD format to disappear, and to encourage boutique labels to adopt less expensive methods of music delivery. I simply can't see a business surviving on bespoke music reproduction, but for the sake of SACD lovers, I hope I'm wrong...

audio software(cd's, lp's, sacds ,dvd's) have collectively taken a 25-30% tumble for the last two years running. the slack isn't being offset by purchased downloads either. a virtual culture shift is making music less important (to own)for many. listening to music, collecting it, and owning a home stereo is a taught behavior. unfortunately the only hardware company even courting the masses is bose.

This explains my entire point. Small labels, XRCD and other high quality sources are not bulk produced. That's the who;e point.

Oh well, we clearly are on different wave lengths, but I commend you for not getting frustrated.

JD, the difference between our points of view is that you appear to be trying to desperately hold on to this year’s state-of-the-art music reproduction format, and I am looking forward at the possibilities for the next state-of-the-art music reproduction format, in the belief that what is state-of-the-art today will shortly be yesterday’s news. The writing has been on the wall for several years as more and more music has been delivered over the internet.

Regarding the vinyl-analog/SACD-digital debate, in my opinion vinyl will survive as an analog delivery method, whereas SACD/CD will either disappear entirely or be relegated to a miniscule digital delivery method.

You wrote:

Digital reproduction is completely reliant on clocking, and the fact that clocking is not a perfect science, every copy be nature is altered.

I would propose by your own definition, even the production of each silver disc is subject to clocking anomalies, since discs are manufactured in batches on multiple CD burners, each of which is subject to clocking issues...as you suggest. Therefore, Chesky, Mapleshade and the like are already settling for degradation of the original.

Anyway, it seems we're picking at the gnat's ass here, and the little bugger just won't stay still long enough to get a firm grip on the sucker...

Tvad, good points all. I have nothing left to discuss other than the topic of this thread. The only dispute I have is a clone is not a clone. Digital reproduction is completely reliant on clocking, and the fact that clocking is not a perfect science, every copy be nature is altered.

The very fact that vinyl is available to a fraction of the audiophile community, which is in turn a fraction of the music industry, tells me there will be a digital equivalent to vinyl. I propose this will be SACD, due in part to the fact that much of the master tape library is being re-mastered into the DSD format. It seems logical that the audiophiles will want that information made available as purely as possible, thus SACD.

I just have a hard time seeing Chesky, Mapleshade and the like settling for degradation of the original.

JD, what I wrote about the 35+ age demographic is:

The reality is, the 35+ age demographic is not the target for mass market entertainment providers, and therefore lovers of jazz/classical recorded music are an afterthought of the music industry Big Boys.

IMO, SACD music is being released as you say primarily to the 35+ demographic (actually,I'd up this to 45+), but based on market demand by this age group, not based on recording quality.

Again I’m going to make the point that using SACD to release the poorly recorded mass market music of the ’70-present would be illogical in that this playback method would only highlight the flaws of the original recording (master tapes) The only way to improve these recordings is to filter and roll off the problem areas. This would be unacceptable to those looking for the best digital playback possible.

It might be illogical, I agree, but more importantly, there is no market demand for rock/pop releases. Maybe there's no demand because the end users realize there is no sonic benefit, or maybe there is no market demand because the Big Boys consider rock/pop listeners as a demographic that doesn't care about Hi Rez music for any number of reasons. The point is there is no market demand. The reasons for the lack of market demand for SACD rock/pop releases certainly include your theory of poor recording quality.

I then hear you discussing downloading via broad band satellite being some sort of answer. To who???

To lovers of Hi Rez audio who in time will be left behind when the shiny silver discs are no longer manufactured. I offer brodband delivery as a cost effective option for distributors to meet the demand of the small Hi Rez audiophile market. It's a suggestion. Not a reality at present.

Every generation of digital reproduction will alter the original. It will always be something less, in that it is not logical that we could add to this digital source.

This is incorrect. All the major broadcast networks make digital duplicates of their shows that are exactly the same from generation to generation. In fact, they are referred to as clones. They have been doing this for ten years or more.

I cannot effectively argue for or against signal degradation via satellite upload or download because I do not have the technical expertise, and I assume neither do you. However, I could ask one of my best friends who heads the QC department for the NBC Network and deals with this issue on a daily basis. My guess is he would tell me there is no signal degradation in the process, and that any signal degradation occurs as local stations send the signal over inferior or outdated equipment. I suspect that Sirius sends their signal directly to the satellite, and from there the signal is sent directly to the end user, thereby eliminating links in the chain. That's the benefit of satellite distribution over cable distribution. Fewer parts, as it were...

I am not aware of a digital source that would match the quality of our high end audio gear.

At this point in time, neither do I. But given satellite boxes are distributing HDTV signals into our homes, it seems to me the technology exists today to distriibute Hi Rez music via satellite. The problem lies in music content and distribution in a Hi Rez format. Again, I believe this is due to a failure of content providers/distributors to recognize the potential, if small, market for this content.

You believe the mass market uploading to the internet or satellite is better.

I never said I thought mass market end users uploading to the internet was a solution to Hi Rez music distribution, or to any music distribution. What I suggested was that music production companies and distribution companies...Chesky at al...might consider satellite and broadband (cable not DSL) as a future method for distributing Hi Rez format music. I never suggested that the currrent iteration of the internet or computers were the solution. In fact, I believe they are not the solution today.

We are talking about apples and oranges and my expectation for audio reproduction must be quite different than yours.

If you re-read my statements and digest my explanations offered in this post, I hope you will see we are not talking to different points.

As far as what is available today, I agree that the state of the art is SACD or DVD-A. However, in time...a very short time...silver disc production will atrophy as more efficient and low-cost alternatives present themselves. And, as CD production atrophies, so will the production of Super Audio Compact Discs. I don't believe the small audiophile Hi Rez market has the buying power to sway the production companies. The best you can hope for is a delay in the inevitable.