Class D is affordable and sounds as good or better the SS/Valve why buy anything else ?
I have spent a fair amount of my hard earned money on big ticket brand new SS and VT/Valve amplifiers over the years without hesitation, with state of the art 2019 class D amplifiers becoming cheaper and sounding better, i wouldn't join in again.
For older technology amplifiers SS VT/Valve to compete with State of the art class D, Their prices are going up and up.
One example is Pilium Audio from Greece or Bulgaria their Divine Line the prices are all over £100,000 for their pre amps and power amps, I know the UK importer he said they sound OK,
Another example FM Acoustics again up to and over £100,000 for pre and power amps. i have owned FM Acoustics pre and power again their OK,
I am not saying they do not sound good, i am saying why spend this much when state of the art class D probably sounds as good now and can only improve with the GaN capacitors and is nearly up to 100 times cheaper.
Is there still a market for multi thousand £$s SS or VT/Valve amplifiers ?
When class D finally overtakes SS VT/Valves what will people do with their multi thousand £$ amplifiers, keep them knowing there is something better ? Or will we see the market flood with exotic used amplifiers ?
Digital technology is rapidly growing pace and becoming cheaper, with GaN capacitors being introduced the sound is going to get better and better and will slowly or quickly become even more affordable.
If you had 50,000 to spend on an Amplifier, would you buy a high ticket SS amplifier and hope for the best ?
Would you stay safe and go with high ticket valve amp, class D can never match good valves right ?
Or would you sit tight and see how the GaN capacitors can further improve the performance of state of the art class D ?
Please feel free to join in, everybody is welcome, i think its a very delicate/touchy discussion for some people with big bucks invested in older type amplifiers.
@helomech you are spreading false statements base on ur feeling not facts! The Devialet as I remember is not a pure class D and has their own design! For higher power rates you must pay fortune but there are other class D with good specs and good sound quality that are affordable! Hypex UCD is older technology but still works perfect in HT and subwoofers! about the brands, I can give you at least 10 models built base on class A or A/B that are gurbage but that doesn’t mean all class A or A/B are bad! people here are very sensitive to brand names so I tried to not mention anyone in this discussion but you, class D haters, wouldn’t hesitate to share your bad experiences with specific details to win a argument! When big brands start to use class D and spend millions and millions to advertise it, all you haters will vanish like vampires by sunshine;)
The point Bruno is trying to get across is the work he’s accomplished was much more difficult to achieve than everyone else who builds amps of other topologies. And yes I agree that if you want to spend $20000+ decent class A and A/B can give today’s $1000 class D a run for its money sound wise.
S&V:Generally speaking, what are the key benefits of Class D versus the traditional Class AB and Class A designs that have long been favored by audiophiles? BP:Efficiency and therefore the ability to construct amps that are powerful for their size. Only that. Modern Class D amps, in particular mine—ahem—sound good not because they’re Class D, but in spite of it. I can’t repeat that often enough. Left to its own devices, a switching power stage tries to do just about anything except amplify audio. You choose Class D to save energy but it’s all elbow grease after that. People don’t realize how much more challenging Class D is compared to Class AB. It’s truly an order of magnitude.
When I listen to tubes all I pickup on is the loss of resolution, high noise floor, and often buzzing sounds coming from the speakers. I guess I’m just more into the sound of music than the sound of electronics. a lot of musicians who have been around loud sounds for decades can't hear good enough to pick up on that. Too much hearing damage.
If you are a trained musician, however, you're likely hooked by the tube amps and could never go back.
I know in my case that's a huge part of it. The tube sound is my comfort food having grown up playing guitar through Fender Twins and MesaBoogies, it's what my ear is drawn to now. It's not right or wrong, it's 100% preference. That tubey goodness simply nurtures my soul.
I guess you don’t understand that with efficiency comes a plethora of other advantages:
1: Size 2: Cost 3: lower energy consumption 4: Lower heat 5: Less EMI (conducted and radiated)
And due to the above advantages, possibilities open up the simply aren’t possible with conventional class A amps. Such as
1: Tight integration with DSP and DAC on same board to eliminate extensive sound quality losses from outboard DAC’s, cables, connections, preamps, buffer stages, output stages etc.
2: We can now fit absolute SOTA cool running DSP/DAC/Amp combos right in speakers to eliminate passive crossovers and speaker cables. The amp DSP can be custom tuned for each driver individually, to optimize for distortion, over-excursion, and saturation.
3: We can eliminate having to have separate enclosures for each component. And the costs involved with paying for multiple enclosures. While at the same time drastically shortening the signal path, and optimizing each sub-section to work together in absolute harmony.
The list goes on but that’s a good start.
Cost. Well, that’s certainly true: cost reduction for the manufacturers who are simply reaping the benefit in profit margins. Yup, they can put $400 worth of parts and labor into a 15lb amp and charge many thousands. If these cost savings were being passed along to the end-user then I’d agree.
Lower energy consumption, yeah, that’s basically what one would infer from the term "efficiency." Where’s Capatain Obvious when you need him?
Lower heat: well, some folks like the extra heat of their class A amps in the winter. Unless I’m shoehorning an amp into an Ikea cube, heat is a total non-issue.
Less EMI with placing the DAC inside the box??? Weird.
Never liked any Class D no matter how hard people sell them. Kharma, Spectron, 47 Labs, Rowland ... all disappointment in my ownership experience. If the big names don't delight, not going to expect much in other brands.
But the caveat is Class D vs Digital amp. Can't tell nor care the design difference. Don't excite me as much as a good tube amp.
Don't need to go into SS vs Hybrid vs Tube debate. It's all a matter of preference and compromise. If you are a trained musician, however, you're likely hooked by the tube amps and could never go back.
I’ve heard many class D amps that I didn’t like. In fact the only class D amps I do like out of hundreds of different class D amps available are:
1: Hypex NC500 & NC1200 (must have well implemented buffer stage, and ultra clean power for modulator and buffer. Very few do. In fact none commercially available today are fully optimized)
2: Icepower Iceedge (only model currently with Iceedge technology is the 1200AS)
3: The TI TPA series of class D ASIC’s. (I’ve only heard the TPA3251 and TPA3255. both excellent if well implemented)
Everything else has been mediocre. For example Hypex UCD, Pascal, Anaview, ICCx based Icepower amps.
I’ve no need or desire to fit in, i’m just curious as to why after only hearing one or two examples of class d amps people dismiss them as a whole entirely. I’ve heard class d amps I really like and some others not so much.
@three easy payments....I agree with your assessment of the Nova....in my room sounded so so. Took it to a friends in a better room with better source. Completley different amp sounded great.
Why is it when it comes to other amp topologies audio nuts will throw everything in the book at their systems to try and get it to sound good? Different brand of amp, more expensive cables, power conditioners, fuses, magic goo, tubes, you name it. They almost never blame the topology. Yet they listen to one or even a few Class d amps they don’t like and immediatley dismiss them as all being bad.
I owned a Tube amp once that sucked, slow bloated bass, syrupy midrange couldnt drive my speakers at all....all Tube amps must sound like that, they all suck. I had a solid state amp once that was bright and clinical....all solid state amps must sound like that...they all suck.
I think this thread is about today's class D. Why don't we talk about early 70's SS amps before the technology matured on class A/B amp threads? Or tube amps from the 30's before they matured on tube amp threads? Class D has now matured. So lets discuss mature class D. If you have not experienced mature class D yet, then you have nothing useful to contribute to around here.
In my own personal experience, and to my own personal tastes in sound, the most disappointing amp I've ever owned was Class D - a Peachtree Nova150. Consistent with what Art Dudley later wrote about the Nova300 - it was on the dry side with grainy treble...at least to my ears. The amp has been long gone and I've been fully immersed in the much sweeter sound of Class AB tubes.
I guess you don’t understand that with efficiency comes a plethora of other advantages:
1: Size 2: Cost 3: lower energy consumption 4: Lower heat 5: Less EMI (conducted and radiated)
And due to the above advantages, possibilities open up the simply aren’t possible with conventional class A amps. Such as
1: Tight integration with DSP and DAC on same board to eliminate extensive sound quality losses from outboard DAC’s, cables, connections, preamps, buffer stages, output stages etc.
2: We can now fit absolute SOTA cool running DSP/DAC/Amp combos right in speakers to eliminate passive crossovers and speaker cables. The amp DSP can be custom tuned for each driver individually, to optimize for distortion, over-excursion, and saturation.
3: We can eliminate having to have separate enclosures for each component. And the costs involved with paying for multiple enclosures. While at the same time drastically shortening the signal path, and optimizing each sub-section to work together in absolute harmony.
Attention all class D fans! The opposition has an extremely weak case wouldn't you say??
Yet you won't address the fact that Bruno Putzey, who created NCore - regarded as one of the very best class D designs, stated that the only advantage of the topology is efficiency. He even emphasizes that notion by saying, "I can't repeat that often enough."
Read it a second time if necessary. Seems to me that making a good-sounding class D amp is analogous to taking a dump truck and trying to make it handle like a Porsche. Me, I'd rather just get the Porsche in the first place.
Refer to the discussion, as a class D lover, I don’t have any knowledge to engage in technical facts! But give me some names in class A or A/B that produce same amount of power as middle range class D amps in the same price range !
IME, the power of class D amps has always sounded weaker than lesser- specified class A and AB amps. This was also the case in the mobile audio world. One of my first jobs out of high school was installing mobile audio systems. We always had to turn the gain way up on any class D amps to get them to sound anywhere near as powerful as a similar-spec AB amp. Even then, the sound was nearly always thin in comparison.
It's funny (or maybe it's sad), even two decades ago, the manufacturers of those class D amps made similar claims to some in this thread - that their amps had finally broken the class D mold. However, all of us on the installer side quickly realized it was all puff. I worked for a large shop with multiple techs and not a single one chose class D for their own vehicles. We'd only sell them if the customer insisted on a small amp and/or had a very limited budget. Unlike the current home audio market, the cost savings of manufacturing cheap chip amps was mostly passed along to the end-user in that industry.
A little over a year ago, I compared a Parasound H-int (240 watts/ch into 4 ohms) with a dealer's Devialet monoblocks that were rated at something over 1000 watts/channel. This was driving a pair of Maggie 1.7s to rather high SPLs. The Devialets, despite being some of the best class D I've encountered, sounded less ballsy than the Parasound.
When I owned the 350 watts/ch Rogue Pharaoh (Hypex UCD/ tube hybrid) it sounded much less powerful than my 85watts/ch Yamaha. And as previously mentioned, the Yamaha blew it away in terms of bass extension - by what sounded like a whole octave.
This is a pattern I've noticed for at least 2 decades now. For whatever the reason, watt for watt, class D power sounds weaker in real use. It reminds me of how Japanese horsepower is often cited in car mags as feeling weaker than German power (well, that's one's easy to figure - it's really a difference in torque).
I have no personal beef with the topology. I truly hope that it will someday surpass the others in SQ, as I'm all about saving energy where practical. Unfortunately, all the ones I've encountered that a mere mortal can afford were still a long way off.
So can we just leave it at that? At least until your "next project" is available to listen to? There is no real need for you to post anymore about amps that don't even exist.
I deleted my own threads on AC. I decided I was done with supporting an admin who would bend the rules for some and not others. If you read the Alexa stats, the value of Audiocircle went up by $40000 within a month after I opened my circle. After I left it went down $60000 in value within 3 months. I was putting around an extra $2000 a month in advertising income in the pocket of the admin, and he still made the choice to bend the rules for the trolls. So I wiped out my content, because I didn't want him to continue profiting off of my time and energy I put in.
And sorry Ric I’m certainly not jealous of your hacked, warranty voiding science project. I’ve moved on from the 1200AS and have left the modules for all you wolves to fight over. My next project will be far superior, and much much more difficult for you guys to copy. So good luck! :)
I follow you around.......yes, Mike I am a stalker. Yes, your threads get a lot of traffic (because of the drama...hey, who doesn't want to watch a good fight?)......till they are deleted. And how has that benefited me? I don't lie. I heard a pair of your amps with the best jacks and wire and run mono with $225 fuses.....I never said they were SE....they are your one quarter inch thick versions. Now, you will state that your one half inch thick versions sound way better so my A/B is nonsense. My chassis is one eight inch thick......he he. My "hacked science project" is just your jealousy for not being able to make the modules sound better. So, now you are attacking........you see, it is a never ending spiral with you. You cannot let go. Everything is an attack to you, so you keep swinging your sword. I will not respond to anything more you say as I have stated my truth and it does not need to be repeated. I hope the thread continues as it is an important view to discuss. I bless you and wish you happiness and peace.
Specs, measurements and such done right provide useful clues to what to expect from a product only. They help people make informed decisions.
But as is always the case, one never knows what something actually sounds like until they give it a try. So glad I did that a few years back with Class D. It helped me get to my happy place in hifi much sooner rather than later. Nowadays, I read these discussions but spend as much of my spare time as I can just enjoying the music, now more than ever.
If you had a scope and looked at any waveform coming out of the amp you will see the 500K switching noise riding along. ALL class D amps have this. Is it audible.....maybe not....does it look gross. yes.
You think everything is an attack, that is your problem. I was just describing (very fairly) your behavior (past and present). I mean you no harm. I hope you can take the feedback and grow up. If not, then wherever you go the same story will ensue. You cannot keep doing the same behavior and expect different results.
Sorry Ric but the 1200AS based amps that are being sold on the market today by manufacturers who are selling both Hypex and 1200AS based amps are the lowest profit margin products in their lineup. They aren’t just using a linear BOM based markup that’s identical on all of their amps. They are selling each product for the most they figure they can get away with selling them at.
And where is this measured data that is showing you switching noise on all frequencies with the 1200AS? The only data you have seen on this module is in the data sheet. And it certainly doesn’t show any there.
As for the rest of your personal attack, it also falls under the prohibited content in the guidelines.
1200AS amps that are being sold are less expensive because they have less money in them and are easier to build. Mike had nothing to do with the pricing of these amps. If one manufacturer would charge twice as much for their 1200 based amps then another one could charge half and get literally ALL the business. Mike just likes to beat his chest and claim he has moved mountains.
The 1200 amps do not measure better than the best class A or A/B amps. They do not make as good of square waves, they have switching noise on all signals. They are not better than all class A or A/B amps. And this is from a guy that thinks the 1200 module with mods and run mono sounds incredible. I am hoping my amp will compete with most anything under $10,000 or even more. But worlds best? No way. Class A already dead? No way. Better measurements? No way.
Wherever Mike goes is a fight. He has been kicked off several forums and made a mess on his forum on Audiocircle. He states things so righteously that anyone with a differing opinion wants to fight him back. A lot of threads where he participates get deleted....including most of his threads on his now gone Audiocircle forum circle. He is really smart. However, he is his own worst enemy. His behavior creates people who do not like him (some outright hate him)........so he limits his income and his ability to make a difference in the world. I like Mike. I find him funny. You know, like one of those neurotic characters on a tv sitcom. Of course, the same character gets tiring. I hope he grows up. There is half truth in what he says.....the module (even stock and a single stereo) has beaten all kinds of class D, A/B and A amps. Don’t sell this baby short. I offer a 30 day in house trial and I will pay the shipping to you if you send it back....you only pay for return shipping. This would be the same as having a tour....the only difference is you get to keep it for 30 days and have some money deposited by the manufacturer.
Class D is maturing. It is not what some think here. My 1200 amp is really, really great. However, it is not the holy grail and will be surpassed, even at its price point within a couple of years.
Nothing is being concealed with me. I’ve been extremely open about everything I’ve discussed. When I read the guidelines of this forum here’s what it says:
Goals of these discussions
Discuss the audiophile hobby
Share experiences with other audiophiles.
Share news about the high-end audio industry.
This is exactly what I’ve been doing. When I read the Prohibited content section I read this:
-You will not post content that is abusive or defames another member of The Service
Which is all you have contributed so far to the discussion.
I'm about done with exchanges with you now. So have fun trolling by yourself.
miveraaudiot’s a greedy thing when you sell products for very low profit margins?"
No it is greedy when you conceal your profit driven motive behind a religion of you're own invention where you have authored its bible and attempt to insult, degrade, and silence those who question you're proselytizing and faith-based interpretation of real world data, experience, and information.
miveraaudio" I sold the first 100 1200AS based amps that hit the market and set the price bar for the industry on amps based on that module."
So it was obviously the profit, greed, and personal notoriety that prompted you're conversion to the Class D church, religion, and faith. But this "church" that you have joined hear known as "Audiogon" is a non-denominational "church" so you will find that not all hear will accept you're proselytizing or you're
closely held, cherished, beliefs and faith.
Ncore OEM modules have been available for 8 years now. The Iceedge 1200AS and the Iceedge IC's have only been available for 16 months now. It's going to take more time for everyone to adopt.
Like I mentioned earlier, big companies can’t just instantly deplete all of the current inventory located at their warehouses, distributors and dealers. And when they invest money into production, and advertising of a particular product, they want their investment to return profits before moving onto the next investment. So it takes a couple of years for new technology to make it into the products sold by brands that sell through the distributor/dealer model. It has nothing to do with them not liking the technology. I can assure you that the market will be flooded with Iceedge based amps within a couple of years. They also sell the Iceedge IC’s on their own to manufacturers big and knowledgeable enough to build their own scratch made amps from them. This gives them a massive advantage over Hypex, as you have no choice but to buy full modules to adopt their technology.
Because you know I'm all about that spec, 'Bout that spec, no treble I'm all 'bout that spec, 'bout that spec, no treble I'm all 'bout that spec, 'bout that spec, no treble I'm all 'bout that spec, 'bout that spec Because you know I'm all about that spec, 'Bout that spec, no treble I'm all 'bout that spec, 'bout that spec, no treble I'm all 'bout that spec, 'bout that spec, no treble I'm all 'bout that spec (spec) I'm all about that, all about that spec I'm all about that, all about that spec I'm all about that spec, no treble We gon' take it to a whole another level We know that sh*t ain't real We know that sh*t ain't real We know that sh*t ain't real We know it's photoshoped We know that sh*t ain't real We know that sh*t ain't real We know…
wow.. I am the FAVORITE. Favorite anything is GREAT. Woo Hoo. Favorite hypocrite. Do I get a trophy? Pleeeese? Maybe a little one I can put on my stereo??? Pleeese?
Agree! Ncore mades more profit but I am tempting to get one IcePower soon and compare to Ncore! A silly question, why famous brands like NAD, Marantz, Thechnics,... invested on Ncore not IcePower?
Yes because I sold the first 100 1200AS based amps that hit the market and set the price bar for the industry on amps based on that module. The amplifier manufacturers who are selling both 1200As and Hypex Ncore based amps would rather sell you the Hypex based amps for obvious reasons.
No OEM's are not allowed to sell kits based on Icepower amp modules. I sold 20 kits at first, but then I found out about this policy and stopped.
The power supply is integrated into the board. It's a complete self contained unit. Just apply power and connect speakers.
Regarding Pascal, they haven't improved upon their technology since 2011-2012. They have made new modules with better efficiency, but none of them feature anything new that increases the sound quality. And they haven't made any claims about increased sound quality with this new lineup. The last time I tried an amp from them it was the M-PRO2, and I felt at the time that even my early generation NC-500 based build sounded better.
W4S is claiming to use Iceedge technology in their ST-750LE amplifier for $1750. However the specs are nowhere near the 1200AS module, and the 1200AS module is the only Iceedge based amp Icepower has produced yet. So it’s a bit odd.
Bel Canto uses Hypex NC-500 modules combined with a basic IC opamp based buffer stage in the Ref600M. I haven’t seen any products from them using the 1200AS.
So far to my knowledge, the only 1200AS based amps available today are from small direct sellers. No big brands. The biggest brand selling them is Nord.
@Ketchup: I’m no longer selling 1200AS based amps. You’ll need to talk to one of the manufacturers who are.
Mivera, Pass an amp around to a few people here so we can get experience with today's class D. I'd be happy to pay shipping to the next guy. This is the
Just I noticed Hypex 1200 is coming with a reasonable price to the market. In the time I bought mine, there were available only in very high end of class D amps. @miveraaudio 1200AS IcePower is the same module that W4S and Bell Canto use in their mono blocks ?
It's becoming clear that very few folks around here have experience with today's class D. And it's understandable why. It hasn't made it into any big brand commercial products yet. The reason why is because it takes a couple years for new technology to make it into big brand products, because they have loads of inventory to burn through first. This is where the little guys have a massive advantage. For example within 1 week of first auditioning the 1200AS module, I already had 66 amplifiers sold.
The 1200AS modules will be going in many big brand commercial amps soon. Expect to see reviews in Stereophile within a year or 2. Only these amps will need to sell for 3-4 times more than the direct sellers can do it for due to inefficiencies in the supply chain.
I like the Nelson Pass idea of adding a little mojo back into the soup with his 2nd harmonic generator. Distortion yes, but musical seemingly, and the idea goes a long way toward helping people get why tubes sound more musical or lifelike than other designs. I like the sound of my single ended tube amp over any SS A/B or D amp I've heard, and although its limitations keep me in the efficient speaker camp I simply don't care...class D is an obvious choice for pro stuff in, for example, phased array lightweight powered speaker systems that are at live shows everywhere, but clearly I prefer tubes for serious musical enjoyment. Perhaps designers should stick a switchable 2nd harmonic gizmo in their amps to allow listeners to decide what's what. Note that I own an Ampeg class D bass amp, but I've also used a gigantic Ampeg SVT tube head (and other various bass amps over many years) and man...although it's a beast, the SVT does sound MUCH better.
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