Elrog 300B vs Takatsuki 300B tubes

http://westernelectric.com/products/300b.html

Looks like it's easter again.

I have both the Elroy 300b and Tatsuki 300b along with XLS, mid eighties WE 300b, Psvane WE300b 1:1 and Shunyang WE300B, as well as EH300b, Shunyang Treasure, Genelex Gold Lion reissue 300b.

I have bought the Elrog 300b tubes from the new Elrog owner and let’s say after comparing them to the Tatasuki and the WE 300b’s I bought another pair as these are my new standard. I use the tubes in my Manley Neo Classic 300b Preamplifier. They are a modern 300b and not even based on the original WE design at all. Transient response and slam are beautiful and yes they even maintain just the right amount of euphonics across most genres. I can not say the same about the orig WE 300b’s for sure. I have ~500 hours on the Elrog 300b’s. It was hard to best the Tatasuki 300b. Until the Elrogs they were by far my favorite. They did take a while to finally break in. Not so with the Elrogs they were pretty much perfect from the first power up. h and they look amazing very tall and not at all like a standard 300b bottle.

Oh and they were nearly half the price of the Tatasuki's.  I love me a "bargain"


My System: Manley Neo Classic 300b Preamplifier, TT’s #1 modded Clearaudio Performance Turntable with Champion Motor and speed control, Panzer Platter, Soundsmith Strain Gauge Cartridge System, TT #2 VPI Signature Soundsmith Hyperion Cart, Manley Steelhead Phono Pre, Mytek Manhattan DAC Revox B77, Manley mono block 120’s and Martin Logan Summit X with ML Descent i Sub, Kimber KCAG interconnects, Kimber 8AG speaker cables with WBT connectors.

Well I have EML 300B XLS in my Ruby amps for several years and the sound is superb. These are more rugged and reliable and you can get more power from them if you design an amp around it.
- IMO they are among the best 300B's that can be had at any price and run around $750/pair

Ecx123, thanks for the additional info. I see what you are referring to in EML’s note 4, which states in part:

Replacing 5U4G with 5U4GB may result in higher rectified voltage, so should never be done. Replacing 5U4GB with 5U4G may result in lower rectified voltage, and may result in damage of the 5U4G rectifier.

However, here are vintage datasheets for the 5U4G and the 5U4GB. Note the statement in the first paragraph of the 5U4GB datasheet that:

The 5U4-GB ... may be used as a replacement for either the 5U4-G or 5U4-GA.

Also, while the detailed parameters indicated in the datasheets do suggest that substituting a 5U4GB for a 5U4G will result in higher rectified voltage, the difference does not appear likely to be major.

Finally, my older Sam’s Tube Substitution Handbook lists the 5U4GB as a direct substitute for the 5U4G (while of course not listing the reverse). I have never known its listings to be inaccurate, and I have often found them to be overly conservative (i.e., to err on the side of caution) if anything.

In any event, all of this is of course superseded by the indication from Israel and in the manual that the 5U4GB should be used in the Franks. He should update the website description of the Franks, though, which indicates 5U4G as I mentioned.

Enjoy!  Regards,
-- Al

In the Coincident manual for the Franks, it specifically says uses 5u4gb and don't use 5u4g. Before reading the manual I did roll some 5u4g tubes in because they looked cooler with their bottle shape. One amp stopped functioning shortly after but luckily it was just a blown fuse. When I inquired with Isreal he referred me to manual and said use 5u4gb only. Was blown fuse the result of the 5u4g?Cant say for sure. Interestingly on EML spec on note 4 it says they are not the same:
http://www.emissionlabs.com/datasheets/EML5U4G.htm
I guess it is a case of it works until it doesn't.

Very much loving the Coincident Franks and CSL. Actually got the Statement Phono first and loved that, then decided to go all in. Big improvement on CSL and Franks w PSVANE WE replicas. Will be ordering the Elrogs next week to see how much better it can get.

Ecx123 2-25-2017
The Franks use 5U4GB and Isreal says they are different than even 5U4G. I believe he said 5U4GB takes more current.

A 5U4GB can **handle** a somewhat greater output current load than a 5U4G, but their specs are otherwise pretty similar.  The website description of the Franks Mk II indicates 5U4G, however.  Perhaps the description isn't up to date.

A 5U4GB will just about always be a suitable substitute for a 5U4G.  A 5U4G will be substitutable for a 5U4GB in some designs but not in others.

Charles1dad 2-25-2017
To the best of my knowledge the Millard GZ37 is a drop in replacement rectifier tube.  

The GZ37 is equivalent to a 5AR4.  It will often and perhaps usually be a suitable substitute for a 5U4G, and it will be a suitable substitute for a 5U4GB in some designs but not in others.  There was some discussion of the 5AR4 near the bottom of page 9 and near the top of page 10 of this thread.  (Those page numbers apply if posts are sorted most recent last).

Best regards,
-- Al
 

Thomas Mayer says that the current Elrogs have been substantially improved and is backing it up with a 1 year warranty. I may at some future date revisit this 300b tube given the extended warranty period,  I'm in no hurry  and am currently really enjoying the EML XLS  which seems to be bullet proof with my Frankenstein. 

To the best of my knowledge the Millard GZ37 is a drop in replacement rectifier tube.   I've used it for nearly 2 years and have not encountered any problems so far. ecx123 I hope you are enjoying the Frankenstein and the CSL pairing as much as I am.
Charles 

Hi All,
Read through all 13 pages with interest and fascination and thanks to all who shared their insights. I have the Franks and CSL that I recently switched up to PSVANE WE replicas. Been running them for two month with about 200 hours on them. They have been spectacular IMHO. A friend told me about the Elrogs and looked them up and was led me to this thread. My question would be did Thomas Mayers recent acquisition of the Elrog works fix the 300B issues. According to his blog he is selling out all current production tubes and have no quality issues except for shipping damage. 2nd, I am wondering with charles1dad, with the all the heartbreaking issues he has had with the Elrogs in his Franks if tried putting back the original spec rectifier tubes. The Franks use 5U4GB and Isreal says they are different than even 5U4G. I believe he said 5U4GB takes more current. Charles mentions he is using nos Mullard GZ37, how compatible/reliable are they? Have other Frank users had similar unfortunate experience as charles with the latest batch of Elrog 300B?

Regards
  

Any of you people in Chicago . I have 4 300b amps and tend to use EML
solid and mesh plates . Two amps are transformer  coupled. I would Like to hear a pair of elrogs.
my phone 708 645 1237
cell 708 446 7576
thanks Rick Berta

I know of 2 systems that run Audio Note with Takatsuki with good results. One has 2 tubes per channel, 4 total, for about two years and had Western Electric prior to Takatsuki. The other system has 2 tubes for over a year. I don't remember AN's models, but can dig up the info if needed. I have both Coincident Frankenstein MK2 and Border Patrol amps, both are great with Takatsuki.

Bill,
 If you ever consider a back up pair 300bs  the XLS is a very good option.  George Lenz told me that some  older pairs of these tubes are approaching 40,000 hours of use per some of his long term customers.
I can believe that,  this is a very stout output power tube.
Charles,  

Hello Bill, 
It's surly conceivable that your PS Audio 10 could provide a definite positive effect. I gave it my best shot but with the 3rd failure I recognize that enough is enough. Your fate may be different from mine. 
Good Luck, 
Charles, 

Charles,
Sorry to hear about the persistent failure of Elrogs in your Franks.  Mine are still doing OK, but I am probably only getting 2-3 listening sessions in a typical month.  If the heat doesn't break soon, the listening may increase as the hiking decreases.  I do wonder if my use of the PS 10, using115 V and soft start up, will lead to acceptable service with the Elrogs.   However, if (when) they fail, I intend to go to the XLS tubes.  We have all been quite patient with Elrog, but the premature failure rate has been unacceptable. 

Hi Cal,
As you noted I  did the amplifier cathode  resistor modification and I’m on my 3rd pair of the Elrogs. One tube has recently failed and the other is working fine. My conclusion is that the Elrog 300b despite its superb sound isn’t a good choice for the Coincident Frankenstein MK II. I’d recommend the Takatsuki and EML XLS as better companions. The EML XLS especially is an ultra robust workhorse tube that seems ideally suited for the Frankenstein’s particular demands. This tube is rugged, exceptionally reliable and sounds truly excellent with this amplifier.

In absolute terms the Elrog is a bit better sounding and has a "more" organic character. However the "bulletproof" EML XLS makes beautiful, dynamic and very engaging music without question. This is a top echelon 300b tube in my opinion. In the proper amplifier the Elrog is brilliant but it is seemingly too delicate for long term use in the Frankenstein. This is my conclusion and others may disagree.
Charles,

As you may have seen, one of the posters in here, Charles1dad, previously used the Taks as his reference before switching to the Elrogs... in Coincident Franks though, unfortunately for your information gathering.

P.S.  Charles, are those Elrogs still hanging in there after the amp mods?

I have Takatsuki, Sophia Princess, EML and Elrog 300B and EML300B XLS.
So far, only the EML300B has started failing on me (lower gain on one channel). But I don't run my 300B for long hours either. 
FWIW

Parkie

contact Marc at trueaudiophile.com. They are located on the west coast in Oregon or Washington State. 

I I purchased a pair of Taks from him last fall and they shipped the same day. 

Great customer service for sure!!

Scifi

I have been listening to Takatsuki 300b tubes for a couple of years. The Takatsukis replaced Sophia RPs in my 300b SET; no technical issues with the RPs - the Takatsukis just sounded better. I have not heard Takatsukis in Audio Note amplifiers, and I have not heard the Elrogs in any amplifier. I am, however, surprised at the wait time. I sourced mine from Amtrans in Japan. Once you get them, I will be curious how they compare to the WE Replicas from Psvane.

Gary

Does anyone have recent experience with the Takatsukis?  I have already had two pairs of the Sophia Royal Princess 300Bs die on me, so I am steering clear of the Elrogs for now.

Specifically, I would love to hear how the Takatsukis perform in any Audio Note amplifier.  I have ordered a pair from PriceJapan, but apparently there is a two month wait at the moment.  I have sold my low hours pair of PSVane WE Replicas and have my Shuguang Black Treasures up for sale.  Both of those will help pay for the Takatsukis : )

So, for now I am back to using the stock tubes.  They are good but don't have the texture, detail or colour of the PSVane Replicas.  I figured that this is going to make the Takatsukis sound even better!  Stepping up from the Replicas wouldn't be nearly as much of an improvement as coming from the stock tubes.

Anyway....just waiting patiently for the Takatsukis.....is that the FedEx truck that I hear?  No, just some car passing by : (

Must be patient.....

Sorry to be digging up an old thread, but this is the most in depth information regarding the Elrog 300B that I can find.  

I am interested in trying the Elrogs, however I am curious to know if there is anyone out there who has had the 300B that has not failed?  If so, what amp are you running them in and what are the operating parameters driving the tubes?

Thanks,
Ed

Hi Elrog,

Unfortunately, one of my ER300B started failing again.  This is a revised version that replaced my original pair last August.  It keeps cutting out and making noises. I can turn amp off and take tubes out for a while and then it works for a while and quits again. Sometimes it won't even start up so it is definitely bad.  I didn't use the tubes much at all after I received the replacement pair last August.  So, they have less than 100 hrs.

I have been trying to contact Matthias as he instructed in August but haven't received any reply so far.  I hope someone in Elrog can take care of my case.  (For the record, I copied email exchange from last year).

I think ER300Bs (with ER845) are the best sounding tubes out there.  I really hope that the company can back their products and take care of their customers.  
 
Let me know how I can proceed to get replacement tubes.

Thanks.  
Byung
----------------------------------------
mk_August 28, 2015 2:30pm
Hi Byung-Hyun,I will send You the tubes on Monday. The transfer time is about a week. 
And please, if You have some trouble with the replacement tubes send me an eMail toklepper@xxxxx.de ....
;-))Best regards, Matthias 
 Report th

Hi Pani,
I had a FW J2 amp as my back-up amp. I use Frankenstein Mk.2 300b's as my main amp.
The J2 is a very good amp, detailed, very open, fast, great bass, but the Franks are more liquid and sound more natural in tone and timbre. 
The J2 had a slight grain compared directly the SET amp. Don't get me wrong it is a wonderful amp, but the 300b's push my buttons more!

Markus,
I'm  optimistic and hope that your comment proves prophetic over the course of time. 
Charles, 

That's great Charles1dad. Mine failed at 184.5. I think the resistor mod has all the ear marks of being worth while.  

Hello Markus,
My Elrogs have about 220 hours of use at this  point. 
Charles, 

How many hours so far Charles1dad?

Quick update, 
So far so good in regard to the cathode resistor swap in the Coincident Frankenstein. The Elrogs are hanging in there and continue to sound  superb. Perhaps this is the answer for long term Elrog tube life,  time will tell. 
Charles, 

+1 to charles and raquel.  Very well said, esp. raquel's carefully reasoned and extremely well written analysis.  Perhaps the best post of the year, IMO. 

Hello Raquel, 
I appreciate your comments and agree with them.  I and other contributors to this thread have on several occasions written impressions comparing the premium level of 300b tubes.  It is recognized that preferences among this esteemed group of tubes vary exactly for the reasons you cite. Though I expressed a preference for the Elrog,  I've made it clear that the Takatsuki and EML XLS are truly excellent in their own right. Given the variables of amplifiers, system configurations and accessories /tweaks, no tube can be declared the absolute best for all listeners. 

By the way Raquel I miss your insightful comments from the good old days on this site.  Welcome back. 
Charles, 😊

I very rarely go on Audiogon these days and even less frequently look at Audiogon threads, but this one came up last night in a google search when I was looking for something else and I read it through.

I know that this will not be news to most of you, but it bears repeating that current 300B tube production is artisanal in nature, as is manufacturing of the single-ended tube amps that most people use 300B’s in - with great respect to their manufacturers, many of whom make incredible products, I want to emphasize that these things are not made by companies like Boston Scientific or Siemens in roboticized factories to critical-application tolerances - they are basically made by hand, one tube can sound materially different than a presumably identical tube from the same production run (not to mention tubes from different production runs), and two identical tube amps from the same manufacturer can likewise sound different, particularly if they are point-to-point wired like the very good ones often are. Just as with Mason & Hamlin's, Fazioli’s, etc., no two sound exactly alike.

So that said, and factoring in how different partnering electronics, home electrical supplies, listening rooms, set-up skills and the auditory capacities of listeners can affect perceived sound, I am wary when someone writes in a thread that one really fine tube is better than another really fine tube. I don’t believe that anyone has done that here and I think it is a useful exercise for owners of a common tube amp (the Coincident Frankenstein here) to report their experiences, but I think it is correct to say that Takatsuki, Elrog, Emission Labs and EAT, and even the high-end Shuguang and TJ / Full Music / Sophias, are all really fine sounding tubes and can all outshine each other in a synergistic amp.

In addition, because some amps run output tubes a lot harder than others, build quality can be a factor equally as important as sound quality. For example, the VAC Renaissance push-pull amps run 300B’s hard, and many feel that best tube life is achieved with VAC’s rebranded Shuguang 300B’s, which have been very carefully culled to withstand the stresses that tubes in that circuit are going to see - they can last many thousands of hours. PS - Any 300B used in Renaissance amps MUST be standard Western Electric-spec 300B’s (BLX tubes draw too much filament current and will cause amp failure, and mesh plates are too delicate and generally fail). So, and I think this is borne out by user reports in this thread, not all 300B’s are going to provide acceptable life in all amps.

I would query the manufacturer of your amp for tube suggestions (i.e., "What sounds good and what’s going to hold up?") as well as a reliable tube vendor (there aren’t many, alas) who demonstrates experience with your amp if you know one, buy three good candidates, put at least 200-300 hours on each tube to ensure they are properly burned in, choose what sounds best to you, and keep as spares the runners up. After another five hundred hours or so, pull them out and do the exercise again - equipment takes time and requires perspective to properly evaluate. Then retain as spares and/or sell the runners up.

Make no mistake, tube selection is crucial - they are the circuit in the equipment they serve and are generally far more important to sound quality than whether you own the "Mark III" or "Mark IV" version of your amp. Investigate what experts (the manufacturer, tube vendors) recommend, spend the money and time to audition good candidates, and never forget that your tubes and your amps are just like your friends and family members - they all have their own personalities, strengths and weaknesses, which for better and for worse, you are just going to have to discover.

David,
I use the Black fuses in the CSL and also my DAC, it's wonderful in all of my components.
Charlles,

Hi Charles,
 Thanks for the comments on the SR Black fuses.I will try then on my Franks soon .
Do you use them on the CSL as well?
Hi calloway,
 Thanks for your feedback about the WE replicas, good to hear that you feel they are that good.
I will try to see if I can try a set .
regards,
David

team212,

As you can see from my above post, the reliability issue for the Elrogs is still troublling. 

I use a Quad set Takatsuki 300Bs and can honestly say they are as good as it gets--I would've gone for the Elrogs ( I replaced  stock EH's also excellent tubes) but at the time the reliability of the new E's was troubling 

However  I see that issue seems to be rectified and the brand getting good kudos from current owners. I'd suggest Audition both for any decision.

Good Listening

D

Calloway, 
I had a borrowed pair of Sophia RP  in my amplifier for several weeks a few years back and they were very good sounding although not as good as the Takatsuki.  So what you write is high praise for the  Psvane W.E. Replica 300b. I use W.E. Replica 101D  my Line Stage and it's a superb sounding tube unquestionably. I've heard their 845 and it was also superb. 
Charles, 

drdavid..i have Psvane WE 845s and 300b tubes and could not be more happy with their performance. sorry about your experience with the Royal Princesses.I used mine for a few years and never had an issue. i still have them as back ups..Anyway....the We's are just superb..

Mundorf not Munford, darn auto spell!

Hi Joe,
I don't hear a difference in sonic character at all and I was really listening intently for any changes. So, none that I have noticed. 

Markus, for a tech this is very simple and straight forward. The resistors are right there and very easy to remove and replace. It took my friend 5 minutes per mono block to complete the job. Fortunately the Frankenstein is easy to work with,ample space and few  parts (very uncluttered ). I used Munford 1.2K ohms/25 watts,  2.50 dollars each(1 resistor per mono block ).
Charles, 

Hi Charles,
Now that you have more hours of listening, did changing the resistor degrade the sound in any way using the EML XLS's, Taks, or Elrog's?

Best,
Joe

charles1dad,

I haven't discussed the cathode resistor change with George but it does sound like a feasable fix. Problem for me would be that in my neck of the woods there aren't any tech's that would understand, unfortunately. I honestly thought that the engineers at Elrog had fixed this problem. It's that old saying about assuming something.  

Markus,
Have you discussed with George the option to change your cathode resistor from the stock 1K ohms to the recommended 1.2K ohms value. They are said to reduce the initial power surge (current) stress on the output tube.  The Elrog engineers believe that this is issue with the Frankenstein amplifier. I've done this modification,  only timewill tell if this is the answer. 
Charles, 

Hello fellow Elrog friends,
I was anxious to try the new Elrog 300B's  in my Frankenstien amps but after reading on this forum about  the failures, I decided to wait awhile until all the bugs were worked out. After the new tubes were reissued, I decided to give them a try. Incredable sound, I now knew what everyone was talking about. Sadly, last night after 184.5 hours on the tubes, one of them dropped out with a bang. There was no system damage but I would be surprised if there was another tube that could sound as good as these Elrogs. I put my Takatsuki's back in and I'm working with George to see what he can do but my 6 month warranty has expired so it's a toss up. Keeping my fingers crossed.  

Hello David, 
It's really good to hear from you. 
I understand you decision regarding the Elrogs, it's a practical conclusion to reach. I love their sound so much I was resolute in giving them another opportunity. I did do the recommended cathode resistor swap (only 5.00  dollars for the required 1 pair) and so far, so good. I can report that the resistors don't alter the sonic character at all to the best of my hearing ability. I've put Synergistic Research Black fuses in the amplifiers with excellent results. 

I've not forgotten your very enthusiastic praise of the Coincident Statement power cables.  Well it appears that the IC and SC are every bit as impressive. I respect your opinion of these products David.
I see that Arthur Salvatore is reviewing the power cables on his website site. I'm  keeping them on my radar for certain. I'm still using and enjoying the older  (6 years ) Coincident power cords. 
Charles, 

Hi charles1dad,
 Boy,it's been a while since I've gone on to Audiogon and checked any discussions as I've been busy listening to  the beautiful sounds of my Coincident system  every free moment I have had between work and family.
Thanks for the shout out about premature tube  failures.
The only tubes that I've had a real problem with have been the  Sophia Royal Princess tubes.  My first pair had a tube blow after four months and it was good that I had the one-year warranty as Sophia promptly replaced that  tube . About three weeks later the other tube  blew  Sophia also replace that too however told me they werent willing to replace any future tube failures again.even if it is still during the one year warranty period   ???
After about another three months there was a dramatic sonic degradation and the tubes were obviously dying. So liking their sound in my system ,  I foolishly bought another pair of Sophia Royal Princess tubes in the hope that they would last longer. No such luck. As a matter of fact one of the tubes blew on start up  taking with it some amplifier components including resistors and voltage regulators. This also occurred after about four months. Sophia replaced both of them ss well and I then sold them on Audiogon. 
 Interestingly enough before I even purchased my first pair Israel had advised me any 300 B is safe to use as a replacement tube  except for certain KR tubes and warned definitely not to use  Sophia tubes.   I guess I am foolish and lucky that. I  didn't have earlier and worse damage happen to my amplifiers which would really have been  a disaster. 
 Israel's explanation which is logical and should make sense   to all, was that modern amps that sound dramatically superior to tube amplifiers of 20 to 30 years ago are designed differently! Including voltage plate differences.  The Sophia's and a few other tube designers are using outdated parameters to make so-called modern tubes  for modern amplifiers. So the incompatibility is pretty obvious  and the resulting tube failure should not be a surprise. Not everything is compatible with everything and at no time do I personally assume  it is  amplifier design issue or limitation, rather an incompatibility issue. ( for if there is a design issue with these amplifiers they're the best dam design issues I have ever  had the pleasure of listening to ! LOL]
 I also had a hiccup  with my Elrogs for the exact same reason as other people have reported and discussed above. I must say  that I was thoroughly impressed with how George Lenz took care of any issues and promptly  replaced my tubes with a newer version. It is so refreshing to see such a stand up  guy and  professional attitude in the audio industry. Kudos to George! After receiving my new pair of Elrogs  I decided to sell them as I was already scarred by my previous experiences with the Sophia failures. 
 I am currently using the latest version of the re released Shuguang  Black bottle 300 B tubes. The price to performance ratio is outstanding. I also enjoy my AVVT 32b SL tubes which are in a very special category. I am contemplating  getting the current release of Psvane  W.E. Replicas  which are supposed to sound outstanding as well as the EML XLS which we all know is a wonderful tube. By the way Charles ,have you tried the new CST statement power cords yet? As you know I've had them for a long time and thought the improvement in sound quality  was  extraordinary at the price.  And when you compare to other brand-name cables they are a mere fraction of the cost of most power cords.
However recently I upgraded my speaker cables and interconnects to the new  Statement series from Extreme Shotgun series. 
Wow wow wow The difference was like changing an amplifier . Yup , not subtle by any stretch.  The transparency immediacy naturalness and harmonic completeness  was  eery and uncanny. I have never ever heard  CST gear sound better. These are already qualities that they excelled at ,  but the cables really took it to the next level I was shocked ,The jaw  dropping kind of  shock "they" talk about. Unquestionably and absolutely highly recommended.
Cheers
David

Bill,
I believe that you'll hear differences from the stock fuses very early on. It may seem amusing given it's a fuse with its thin wire filament  but it does really improve with burn in time. As always Bill I'm interested to know your listening impressions. Once you have it in awhile reverse the fuse direction. They are directional for certain. 
Charles,