High End Audio-Gaining Higher Ground?

I concur. I always say most audiophiles are born, not made. It a pursuit of the finer things in life, and to hear music they way it's supposed to sound. Of course this applies more to acoustic rather than electronic music, but electronic music can sound quite good on a high end system. Not really for serious listening, but it's a lot of fun listening to a hard rock album on a killer system.

I think audiophile "disease" starts in childhood ,only later when we grow up ,it transforms to hi end.

Food for thought, there Macrojack. However, I would prefer to remain optimistic to a point. The high end is slowly going up the creek without a paddle, but hopefully, hopefully this will turn around somewhat. I will continue to support and buy from companies who are not snake oil, and built and/or designed by licensed professional engineers. Accuphase, McIntosh, JBL, Bryston, Luxman, and to a lesser extent Yamaha and Onkyo come to mind.

Part of what marginalizes so-called high-end audio is the hopeless complication. Use a PC or a Mac to stream music? No so fast; one has to "clean up" the power supply and, laughably, place the computer itself on uber-special footers to guard against "vibrations." (This ignores the fact that the computer itself performs hundreds of computations all of the time, and streaming music is itself, one of many functions it can do in an audibly error-free manner.)

Then, there is the media/reviewers. Try to look up a simple question ("how does a certain component sound?"), and one sees gems like the following:

"A fat toroid feeds the power supply from its own chamber to isolate the main circuitry from stray radiation. Rectification is via ultra-fast MUR 860 diodes, filtering by low-ESR Elkos. The 32’000uF storage capacitance could have this or that preamp cough in amusement but [the product's manufacturer] deliberately refrain from overkill to shorten capacitive recharge times."

Can't imagine why that's off-putting.

Thirty dollars for vinyl records? Wow. How much do they charge for 8-tracks and cassettes?

Maybe Czarivey has cornered the market on those 2%. :^)

I was in my local B&M audio shop today they are in process of adding a new vinyl area. The titles are varied but mostly well known ones from over the years. Except they are now $30 a pop. Cash cow anyone?

We are aging. In another 10 years our numbers will be drastically reduced by various causes. Death, dementia, hearing loss, income loss, home loss, and loss of interest are all taking their toll gradually. I was born in 1947 and I've noticed that maybe 15 - 20% of us are older than me. If statistics are to be believed I'm near the front of the baby boomer curve. But the audiophile curve trends toward a higher average age than boomers. I'm guessing our greatest population bulge was born in the 1950s sometime. So, just do the math and read the obits. This thing is closing down. The surfeit of used audio gear will cause ridiculously lopsided supply/demand ratios and paralyze the market for new gear.
Personally, I'm about a sneeze away from going all digital and ditching the expensive gear I use and hoard. Times have changed and I am stagnating in my reluctance to change with them. How about you?

Schubert,
That may place me out of business as media retailer where I earn the most of dollar on serious music(not on pop or rap or hiphop that brings little to none and mostly in budget crates and bins).
I believe the number isn't so pessimistic.

All the money in the world won't stop you from having bad-taste.
2% of Americans listen to serious music .
A boom-box is overkill for popular music.

I like the idea of starting a charity also. I think one great thing to do would be to redeploy audio systems owned by recently deceased audiophiles -- assuming, as is quite often the case, that the family members would like nothing better than clearing out heavy and sizable pieces of esoteric (lower case "e," and not a dig at the TEAC subsidiary). Perhaps we could donate the items to schools or homeless shelters.

I live in a highly affluent town of a NE state (translated, most of my neighbors are one percenters I gather) and I'm one of two people I know of who have a tangentially high end system. Most everyone else has just a home theatre with built in speakers hidden in the ceiling if they have anything at all. There are likely more model train collectors than people with multiple component systems.

While friends tell me they enjoy what they hear at my place, no one seems interested in the complexity of what passes for high end. If friends knew I have fancy interconnects (let alone power cords) and have agonized over the great question of our age (which file format to use), they'd tell me to seek treatment for OCD.

It seems that product complexity and snobbery by manufacturers, retailers and users have worked to make this an increasingly niche hobby by aging males with expanding waistlines and receding hairlines, at least based on what I see at stores and shows.

True, there's tire kickers of all ages really. But, I am still curious to know if the 20 and 30 somethings are actually buying the equipment, or are just aspiring to. If they're not, that doesn't help the industry too much. Another argument is, just by looking at the you tube posts on videos regarding high end, is that most of the younger crowd doesn't seem to be interested in the concept of audiophilia. Matter of fact, they tend to go with the flat earth "all amps sound the same" objectivists. Which is really sad. Sure, there is imo, a lot of snake oil in this hobby, but there are actual licensed pro engineers that are designing and making high end components. To discredit all of high end as hogwash is really selling yourself short. I know I'm preaching to the choir here, but that's what I see around me. Just my $0.02.

Dave_72: You could ask the same question of all the old codgers who no longer have the high income they so much enjoyed for decades.

Since this audio game is on it's last leg and is going to wind up crashing like Radio Shack. Why don't we all just sell our gear and donate it to a charity. Maybe it will give Audiophiles a better name. And then let the young people be the next generation with their headphones and computers.

That's really cool, Jafox. But how many of these people in their 20s and 30s are just looking at the equipment instead of buying? That's the $64000 question!

Mapman what a great idea to start a charity funded by rich audiophiles. How many audiophiles (attorneys, doctors) have gone out and purchased a very expensive system as a status symbol, a trophy as to impress the world they have the means and way to buy what some of us could only dream of, only to let it go because they didn't have the time or interest to listen to such a system. I think I have more respect for an audiophile that has invested the money methodically, piece by piece over a period of time to reach their goal. We shall make you the secretary of treasurer to oversee this charity.

The current crop of high end manufactures sell to an ever decreasing crowd of old fools.

This is such a load of BS. I went to the Newport Beach Audio show three times and there were a flood of people there in their 20s and 30s…..far far more than the old grandpas in their 50s and 60s like myself. And many many presenters of systems were younger too. So there clearly is an interest by the younger crowd of likely high-educated and thus more able to afford the systems.

"Minorl, sugar is sweet to an infant as to an adult. Bitterness requires a learning curve."

Okayyy, I absolutely have no idea what this means or what it has to do with the subject. But, maybe I missed something. was/is someone bitter?

enjoy

Here's an idea.

Audiogon should start a charity. IT could be funded by audiophiles with money to burn buying expensive audio gear. THe charity would help them find less expensive solutions for high quality sound, and donate the money saved to charity.

That would be a great thing for all, no?

No economy will ever substitute for charity, when needed.

Two different things I think, both needed.

I would tend to think a better global economy would help provide a better means to reduce hunger in many places.

It will never substitute for charities that address humanitarian issues not solved otherwise. There will always be those.

Its an imperfect world. We all know that.

Its always an interesting philosophical question about where ones money is best spent. Giving to others in need is globally recognized as a best practice I think. Its something I think even most credible religions agree on.

The generally accepted number of child deaths worldwide due to starvation/malnutrition is 3.1 million. An astounding number, but substantially less than the 3.65 million used elsewhere in this thread. That's assuming all starvation deaths are attributable to financial food speculation which is a highly dubious assumption.

The worldwide number of people who are starving has declined by approximately 15% over the past two decades. And yes, in some desolate part of the world the cost of your new state of the art power cord would feed an entire village for a year.

Thanks Schubert.

Less speculation would seem to be in order. Not sure how to accomplish that one though.

Mapman, at least 10.000 children die a day as a direct result of global speculation in food.
In short, you're an ignorant fool.

Schubert,

I believe my analysis would be at the macro level.

Results at the micro level will be different, however, most likely those that embrace the inevitable global economy strategically and effectively will surely benefit most, while those that resist change will most likely tend to suffer more.

Minorl, sugar is sweet to an infant as to an adult. Bitterness requires a learning curve.

Would be hard, VERY hard , to be more wrong Mapman.
You have no concept of levels of analysis.

I like many hear am a sucker for good sound, so I find high end audio interesting. What better way to waste time than talking about what is high end or not. :^)

I do too! I've been into high end audio since the mid 80s when I was a teenager. Sure, why not. It's at least constructive instead of destructive behavior. :D

Economic globalization will turn out to be a blessing most likely.

We are all less prone to fight when in the same economic boat together. That's a good thing I think.

When people come together, in any way, it is usually a good thing. The exception of course would be sexually transmitted diseases. :^)

"Ultimately, what's the difference between Gwyneth Paltrow blogging about the 16 different products she puts on her face to let her natural beauty shine and a group of audiophiles describing ultra high end footers and how it let's them hear the music?"

Different hobbies.

Hobbies are hobbies. The only thing they have in common is is what the particular hobby enthusiast finds interesting.

It's nice to have a little time at least to waste on something I suppose. I like many hear am a sucker for good sound, so I find high end audio interesting. What better way to waste time than talking about what is high end or not. :^)

I see your point Frogman, thanks for that. I basically agree with it as well.

Frog, the reason parents do not discipline their children is that the social forces inherent in economic globalization
have driven the nuceler family in on itself in this phase of dog-eat-dog late capitalism.
Kids are needed as friends .
BTW, rock is a social force, I watched dancing go from a intimate act to an individual exibition as one example.

Read " Bowling Alone".

Onhwy61 expressed my feelings on the matter perfectly.

As I have watched this thread expand explosively to almost 100 reponses in 6 days, I keep wondering why there is so much being said about an amorphous, uncalibrated, utterly subjective and unimportant "standard"?

Try to step back and see how childish it all sounds.

Frog,

I have two teenagers.

There is truth to what you say about "kids" these days, but its really a moot point.

Times do change, but basic truths do not. Knowing the differences and adapting takes time. Same true when I was a kid. My generation did not resemble my parents at all. We became more alike as we grew older and wiser hopefully. That's pretty much always the case. The times largely make the person, but so do core values, which fortunately do not change nearly as much.

We are all programmed to take notice of music, to different extents and in different ways, much like the music itself. THere is no equation or magic formula for what works best. Kinda cool really!

Why do so many threads devolve into criticism of the younger generation? Is it a demographic thing with audiophiles being older, educated and predominately male mansplaining to the presumably ignorant? Ultimately, what's the difference between Gwyneth Paltrow blogging about the 16 different products she puts on her face to let her natural beauty shine and a group of audiophiles describing ultra high end footers and how it let's them hear the music? The answer -- nobody else in their right mind should care!

We need to get over ourselves.

Meaning, IMO, that many (operative word) kids today have little and, arguably, insufficient appreciation of one of the most important life lessons: the value of "process". IOW, what it takes to achieve true understanding of and insight into problems and problem solving related to issues, big and small. Many want results NOW without being willing to do the hard work necessary and that may not be obviously and immediately rewarding.

And guess who is to blame? Not just the changing social and cultural landscape, but we the parents who give them too much and don't challenge them enough and let them struggle.

Kids today don't want to fuss and fight over mm or mc or this power cord or that philosophy how to achieve the best sound i.e. tubes or s.s.

Meaning what?

Kids today don't want to fuss and fight over mm or mc or this power cord or that philosophy how to achieve the best sound i.e. tubes or s.s. They want to listen to music whole cd's even and not just the one track or two from the dead can dance or the Eagles or whatever. Anybody notice the music festivals around. Kinda hard not to becasue they are eveywhere! Live music, theres some immediacy. You know the last time I got total body goosebumps was listening to the dead through my shitty work truck stereo. I enjoy my system at home I do and don't like the hassle of going to shows anymore its a time thing really as well as getting older maybe. I digress what I really wanted to say is there is some awesome awesome music outhere and the kids know it and are listening to it. just don't turn on the radio and expect it to be there. So don't try to tell yourself the kids don't have taste or todays music doesnt' have anything to say cause thats outtatouch bigtime. $ is the real reason plain and simple. That and there is so much B.S. in this game its sickening actually and kids are not as gullible as some audiophiles.

Ok, I would agree there as well.

"Most people wworry more about sound quality and features, and less about "build quality"."

Whoops, forgot to say they also care about aesthetics. Build quality may factor into that aspect of it as well.

Well, there's always exceptions to the rule. Good point. I don't really disagree with you there.

Most people wworry more about sound quality and features, and less about "build quality".

If it sounds good and does what is needed, and lasts a long time, then that infers sufficient build quality to deliver the performance intended.

Not that build quality does not matter, but value, design and quality control matters more for most people. I have seen high end pieces built like a tank that sound great but work less reliably than similar device at Best Buy.

In regard to standards of quality, mid-fi and hi-fi have improved since I discovered audio in the early 80's (except for speakers). So I'd have to say standards aren't lower. We tend to get more fidelity for the money.

In some cases, yes. But what I see is poorer build quality and parts quality compared to the 70s and 80s, even the 90s on low end and mid-fi gear. And that's what most people can afford, really. Also, that's what most people know about. I don't even think they know about high end audio even existing. I certainly didn't know until I was 15-16 years old back in the mid 80s.

maybe people will be more apt to get high and listen to pink floyd and seek better stereos like we have.

We can only hope! lol. Stranger things have happened...

I bet Americans spend as much or more on music, going to concerts, etc as any culture but drinking is the number 1 social activity and you don't need a $50k stereo to have fun when your slamming down beer and whiskey. Now that weed is gaining legal ground maybe people will be more apt to get high and listen to pink floyd and seek better stereos like we have.

I think it is because Asians tend to place more emphasis on music in their lives. It's a matter of cultural values, IMHO. There are many Asians at American HiFi shows. Also, many in my local Philharmonic Orchestra also happen to be Asians. I do not think that music or music reproduction is on such a high scale in the American way of life.

Asians, in general, seem to place a much greater value on music and musical reproduction than Americans do. I'm ready to get hammered on this one.

In regard to standards of quality, mid-fi and hi-fi have improved since I discovered audio in the early 80's (except for speakers). So I'd have to say standards aren't lower. We tend to get more fidelity for the money.

I'm ready to get hammered on this one.

I meant to say "high quality stereo equipment." Thanks.

Yes I know. I was simply stating the facts. I'll be more than happy to knock it off. :D But anyway, yeah that's very interesting. Why do you think that is? Because Americans have lower standards of quality, or could it be Americans are obsessed with low prices and think they can get stereo equipment what it cost 40 years ago...which in a few cases is true, but the quality is not there, imo.

I don't wish to start a battle between which Asian country makes which brand of gear. My original comment was simply noting the irony that while we Americans tend to buy Asian made gear, the Asian market is buying more American made gear.
Americans tend to buy more Sony, Denon, Marantz, etc., while the Asians buy more ARC, VAC, Rowland, etc.

And most of the Sony, Marantz, Pioneer, Denon, etc. that is sold here is Chinese (or Malaysian like most of Onkyo, which is better to me) made! I don't think Japanese high end like Accuphase and Luxman is all that big here in the US, I could be wrong though...