I need to be wowed

It's funny how some folks consider the terms "2K budget" and "new to me" to be such relative concepts....If you can figure out (or somebody can suggest) a way to get a quilt to stay put on the ceiling temporarily without marring the paint, you could do the experiment in acoustic treatment I mentioned above for yourself....

Three very simple letter is the answer to your prayers....

A T C

They are from England, they've mainly only done professional sound until recently (they're in 60% of the recording studios, including Sony and Todd AO). They are finally here in the states, and they won the Stereophile system of the year for 2001. I just bought 3 of the ATC 100's for the front of my home theater. They are internally TRI-amped, so sell the amps and put the money into the best ATC's that you can afford... Check out their website for yourself:

www.atc.gb.net

When I first heard them, it's a WHOLE new ballgame in terms of performance level. They are you going to knock the tar out of the American market... Mark my words...
I turned another guy from here onto them. He wrote me an EMail the other day graciously thanking him for the lead.
All I can say is trust me, you must listen. Nothing too forward, the sound is sooo accurate, and a GIANT soundstage with the most amazing imaging. Do your research, demo them here in Denver (I'll send out contact info) and all I ask for is an email of thanks....

Here's some recommendations based on your budget range:
ATC powered 10's $2500/pr
ATC powered 20's $8700/pr
ATC powered 50's $13000/pr
ATC powered 100's $14600/pr
ATC powered 150's $25500/pr

At the CES show this year, Sony SACD booth had 5 ATC 150's for their demo of their new SACD 5.1 surround format. I've never heard better. This is NOT a sales job, I get No money for any type of endorsement, I'm a petroleum engineering manager and I'm trying to help other audiophiles get into the speakers that Stereophile and I agree are the most amazing in the world!

IF you can afford it, get into the powered 20's or powered 20 towers, it's the real breakover point. But at $2500/pr, the 10's are the BEST value for the money in that price range.

Audiokinesis...I will try that Sunday and report back....thank you!:)

Yes...that 22' slopes down to 9' behind the listener couch wall..(me being the listener)
..thank you for explaining that..it makes more sense to me now what happens to sound and why I apparantly have such a big problem...
..ceiling treatment would be aesthetically fine for me to utilize if it'd help....

One thing I noticed looking at your room photos was not only the front wall height of your ceiling, but the angle at which it comes back down toward the listening position. If I am seeing it correctly, the angle is approaching something like 45 degees, with the height at the back wall being close to normal 8 ft. This means the first reflection point for the sound off the ceiling is almost over your head, instead of half the distance between the listener and the speaker, as with a normal flat ceiling. This in turn implies of much shallower degree of off-axis positioning of the reflection point relative to the speaker's higher-frequency drivers, which could be affecting the spectral content of the reflection. Since speakers are voiced to sound correct with conventional ceilings - insofar as their dispersion roll-off characteristics will affect the perceived balance of direct/reflected sound - I am theorizing that your ceiling configuration could be unduly brightening the resulting tonal balance. If true, this would point toward some kind of acoustical treatment for your ceiling first-reflection point as a remedy. I may be in over my head with this idea (bad pun!), but it seems to make sense, so maybe consulting with someone qualified in acoustic design before doing anything would be indicated. Good luck!

Greetings, ah, "Dudette",

I recognize you from your room photos, if nothing else.

The Shahinians and Vandersteens and Spendors mentioned make sense to me from a voicing standpoint; but the Thiels and Martin Logans and Dunlavy's would not, in my opinion, be likely winners for you. If the Shahinians would work in that location they'd be excellent, but I'm not sure about positioning them that close to the wall. Such wide dispersion speakers tend to be quite demanding of speaker placement, but then quite forgiving of listener placement.

I have not heard the Naim speakers mentioned, but they might be an excellent choice if that wall right behind them significantly reinforces the bottom end. You see, I can't judge from here whether or not it really does - those huge openings to either side of the speaker probably reduce the amount of bass lift you get. So I have a question for you -

When you move your speakers out from the wall, does the bass and midbass lighten up considerably? Or does the tonal balance stay pretty much the same?

If the bass and midbass lighten up considerably when you move your speakers out, then you probably want speakers that are voiced to sound good close to a wall, like the Gradients or perhaps the Naims. If the bass and midbass stay pretty much the same, then I'd suggest the Vandy's or Spendors or maybe Shahinians. Hey, the Shahinians can be painted, if necessary.

Let me comment a bit on the bass tuning to explain why it makes a difference whether the speaker is designed to be placed near a wall or not.

Suppose a speaker is designed to be flat to 35 Hz in an anechoic chamber. Now put that speaker out in the middle of a room, and it will sound pretty good down to the mid 30's. But put it close to the rear wall and bring a sidewall into the picture, and the bass is boosted so that it's up maybe 3-6 dB in its lower region, say between 30 and 40 Hz. This speaker will now sound tubby and sluggish in the bass, and the midbass may be chesty and thickened as well.

Now suppose instead we tuned the same speaker to be flat down to only 45 Hz, but then to gently roll off so that at 27 Hz it's only maybe 6 dB down. If we put this speaker close to the wall, the bass will now go down to 27 Hz or so without peaking, and retain good transient response and natural midbass. This is the kind of bass tuning the Gradient Evidence uses, and it sounds very good in practice. Acutally, the tuning of the Evidence can be adjusted via jumpers so that it sounds natural either close to the wall or out a bit. But the Evidence would not be an ideal speaker for way-out-in-the-room placement.

The coolest thing about the Evidence is its mid/tweet module, which uses the same cardioid loading as the mid/tweet module of the Revolution (it's the same unit, just not in a separate enclosure). This cardioid radiation pattern puts out virtually no energy towards the rear, so there is essentially nothing to be reflected off of the rear wall above 200 Hz. Virtually all other speakers are going to reflect a significant amount of midrange energy off the rear wall because monopole woofers and midranges have a pretty much spherical radiation pattern in the midbass and midrange region (up to maybe 1 kHz or so). So as far as eliminating midrange reflections off the rear wall, the Gradient Evidence and Revolution are pretty much unique in their price ranges. And the Evidence's voicing is like the Revolution's - very relaxing and non-aggressive. No hot tweeters here. By the way, I checked and the Evidence does come in black.

Here's the link to the propaganda page for the Evidence. Be sure to go to the second and third pages of the link - the third page in particular has cool information about optimizing the bass tuning. And, for more information on the cardioid-loaded mid/tweet, look at the Revolution pages also. Evidence page: http://www.gradient.fi/En/Products/Evidence/Evid1.htm

I absolutely agree that you've got to have an in-home audition to be sure you're making the right choice. I think the stuff I sell would probably work for you, but there's really only one way to find out.

So anyway if you have a chance, please check out the effect on the tonal balance of placing the speakers right up against that wall, and then of pulling them out about three or four feet, just so we have an idea of how much bass lift you will be getting, because that really needs to be factored in to make a good recommendation from here.

Best of luck to you in your quest, intrepid Dudette!

I absolutely agree about placement..believe me....I can even hear the difference in an inch or two..
however, if you look at my room photos...there really is no way to alter placement...give or take a feet inches...
As I have the speakers right now the spiral staircase has only necessary clearance..any further out and you'd literally have to climb over the speakers to get upstairs...
.I even thought about reversing the room even though it'd be bizarre, but the only two pieces of furniture
wouldn't fit...
I'm really nor being inflexible for aesthetic reasons....it's just not possible to reposition...
I'd really love to...!
As for home audition....I will try...that's my biggest fear...that with these 22' high ceilings...nothing will sound
the same as in a demo room...
I didn't find the remark condescending...just passionate...and that's a language I understand.
Thanks,Bishop and Will!

agree with bishopwill. Correctly placed $1k speakers can image far, far better than poorly placed $5k speakers.

See these two links for hints :
http://www.cardas.com/insights/roomsetup.html
http://www.audiophysic.de/produkte/aufstellung/aufstellung_e2.html
(they're both in english).
Again it's a trade off between musicality and aesthetics (since optimum sonic placement is usually rather non-optimal aesthetically), but the difference in sound quality is profound.

A couple of things bother me here. First, your constraints about speaker placement. Given the number of dollars you already have invested and the additional dollars you are prepared to invest, I'd strongly urge you to be more flexible about speaker placement. Please forgive me if I sound condescending--truly I do not mean to be--but it is a measure of your inexperience that you are prepared to say, "They have to be placed RIGHT HERE and no place else." It comes down to how badly you want good sound. In the interest of optimum speaker placement, I have seen speakers placed in traffic flow patterns so that everyone had to learn to step around them, etc. In my current situation, one of my speakers extends halfway into a doorway--AND the door is covered with ugly Sonex. Inconvenient as hell but I paid $15K for the speakers and I'm sure gonna put them where they sound best.

Speaker placement is absolutely CRITICAL to getting what you say you want. Whether it is a matter of convenience, aesthetics, SAF, or whatever, I'd try to work it through.

Secondly, please do make every possible--even superhuman--effort to audition in your home. Even if it means renting a truck to haul them back and forth a hundred miles there simply is no other way to determine how speakers will sound in your space until you put them there and spend some days experimenting and listening.

If all this sounds extreme....well, audiophilia IS a disease, after all, and you definitely seem to have the early symptoms. :)

Good luck!

Check out the Monsoon line.

You said it would not be possible to home audition. Just my two cents, but home audition is really mandatory for speakers. Nothing any of us say or what you hear in a store will tell you what it will be like in your room for the long term. Whatever/wherever you buy, make sure you can take it back if it doesn't cut it for you.

....one more possibility is Aerial Acoustics 6 or 7....

Thanks everyone for such thoughtful suggestions....(keep 'em coming!)
It'll be impratical for me to home audition so the more ammunition I'm loaded up with, the better.
My man has already moved *these* speakers around 1 too many times (he thinks they are "fine")...so I'm on my own.

I enjoyed my Sonus Concertos for a long time. The ACI is a major improvement in so many ways while still maintaining a very similar type of rich tonal balance. The Sapphire IIIs are really amazing speakers. I'd strongly recommend giving them a try.

You should try to listen to some Dynaudios before you make a decision. I have listened extensively in a friend's home to Dynaudio Contour 1.8, which new would be substantially above your price range, also the Audience line which costs less (and looks less, and sounds less...). You wonder about B&W: I ended up with B&W CDM7NT which I found smooth and detailed but too bright until I gave them 200 watts of very mellow B&K power amp (source is Arcam CD72, pre is British Fidelity 3B), tubes might be a different story but I don't want to go there...I don't think I will keep these for a long time...for the type of listening you describe and for your space I think you might really like Dynaudios. Sonically they are extremely transparent, lifelike, and detailed; never harsh, never grainy. The soundstage--how to describe this--they don't give a sense of a "stage," rather the instruments are just positioned all over the room--in too small of a room it is almost disorienting. Visually very slender, unobtrusive. Not terribly efficient. Good luck.

Allegro , the ML's ascent sound good with a big amp. but for alittle more you can get the quad988. the other speaker worth researching is a california lab company called VMP check out their Ribbon Monitor 1 $1600. by the way B&W, Vanderstein, Paradim, Maggie, do not impress me no matter how popular they are. talk to fellow audiogoner Sedond about VMP. good luck

I think that this one may be the speaker for you. MSRP is 2400 or so. I don't usually go wild for Thiel speakers(although they always sound pretty good to excellent when I hear them), but the 1.6's were performing well out of their price range. I heard three songs -- a late career Sinatra tune, an electronically enhanced version of some Indian music (lots of synthesized bass), and a Robert Johnson blues song from way back. All sounded wonderful -- intimate on the first and last tracks, lush and huge on the second. And the pair I heard was black.

I was in the store to look for a pair of Revel F50's (a little more than 3 times the price) and while I didn't change my mind about what I want to buy, I was pretty blown away by the 1.6. The salesman had them set up with solid state Mac gear, so I would expect the Plinius to do very well. He just got the speakers a week before and he was showing them off to everyone who came in.

Check them out before you buy anything else.

I don't work for Thiel and I don't usually rant about products.

Zaikesman....
That seems to be the consensus regarding dipoles..I'm not only locked into 2' from wall to front of speaker..
they just can't be placed *anywhere * other than where my present speakers are....
..so I'd better just not audition them.
It's always a shame to fall in love with something you can't have.

When I bought my present speakers (PSB 6T's) I was replacing 12 year old (gulp) Bose...and pretty much bought
the first speakers I heard. Then I replaced a crappy Sony recever and CDP and realized I was in a whole new zone..
I've been fighting the PSB's ever since (I find *them) objectionable...
bright/harsh...shallow/thin sounding...although imaging is great and piano music is really quite nice...

Although you may like the tonal balance of an ML like the Aerius, IMHO you would need to place any dipolar panel-type radiator (ML, Maggies) further out from the front wall than you say you are willing to go, ideally 4 ft. or more, but no less than 3 ft. min. (BTW, the Aerius model is probably too small for the room.) I don't see in the thread a listing of the models you presently use, or have found objectionable in the past - this might be helpful.

How is the ML on strings and horns? I'll be suicidal if I wind up with speakers that have ear-bleeder trumpets again!

Nil...it's a speaker I hadn't considered until now...
I will give them a listen...thanks!

SeanD....
Yes...I will! I had never really considered this sub issue before....I'm just a newcomer in all this...
but I've learned a *lot*...and I trust my ears...
thanks!

Hi again Allegro12,

If you spend a few hours with the spendor and dunlavy dealer then take along at least one large scale CD and ask to demo a subwoofer .... I think spendor has a sub specifically designed to work with their monitors. This will give you a good feeling of what I meant about the low frequencies really making it sound live. You'll also notice that the sub makes little or no difference on small scale music ... the choice to sub or not to sub should be obvious. I've never heard dunlavys so I'd be interested on your thoughts when you've compared them to spendors.

Allegro12, Go for Dunlavy's. You will not regret the choice. No matter what you buy, don't do it untill you give Dunlavy's a listen.

I can only obsess about one thing at a time....hmm..maybe 2....:)

The close-by Spendor dealer has Dunlavy also.....I could make a day of it.....thanks!

I have a friend who says Vandies have that sweet mid-range I yearn for.....I think I must listen to these!

What B&W models.....floorstander?
I get a little nervous about B&W...have read too many people find them bright.....

2k, give or take a few hundred

I've exchanged a few emails with John Marks.....he's convinced those speakers are my ultimate ...
however, since I need to be wowed in every way..looks matter....and the SHAHINIAN wood only cabinets
wouldn't work in my room....(I like the hi-tech look...in fact, looks wise Piegas make me swoon)...and unlike most women, evidently, I want my audio equipment to be the focal point of my room..I'll risk stubbing my toe to have them right there..I *love* my music...

I may be missing out on my dream speakers but SHAHINIAN's are out...
appreciate your suggestion, though...thanks!

I see references to a budget, but I must be overlooking what the stated budget is. Two reasonably prices possibilities would be the Revel Performa F30 (not absolutely sure of the model, retail price is $3500). It has received excellent reviews all over the place and would appear to get you a great deal of the Revel performance without paying for the exotic cabinetry. I don't have personal experience with them. 4th order x-over to increase the sweet spot of the listening room.

Second suggestion would be the Dynaudio Contour 1.8 Mk II's. List is also in the 3's, but you regularly see them used for <$2K. They would be the best Dynaudio to drive with 100 w/c. My musical tastes don't run the same as yours, but a friend of mine has this exact setup - the 1.8's driven by 100 w/c (Arcam amplification) and listens primarily to classical music. Sounds awesome. -Kirk

I'll second the Martin Logan suggestion. My Aerius i's do voice better than anything I've ever heard.

At your budget level my suggestions will not get it - I would look to a rather tall setup because of those ceilings - The Martin Logan SL3 would fill that room quite nicely and are for sale in your price range.

Seamless, coherent, superb soundstaging and imaging,
three dimensional. More musically satisfying than
many speakers 4X their modest cost.

I listen to the same music you do and have a relatively small room, for the last twenty years I used martin logans first monolith and more recently Prodigies.I just changed to JM Lab Utopias,love them.they do not have an irritating treble and are very detailed.you may find the the other JM Labs just as satisfactory.In the Utopia line you pay a lot for the very high end finish.

Hi, Allegro12. I own newforms and don't feel any need to mod them. I did dump the jumper cables and used mapleshade ribbons[mushc better]. If you love the sound of these ribbons might I suggest trying the VMPS line? Now I haven't heard them but they are also ribbons and have the advantage of crossing over at a very low 160hz to the woofer. The newforms cross over at 1000 to scan-speak drivers. The VMPS' go lower with their ribbons and [in theory] should be more integrated though the low midrange. However, I have not heard them but the newform ribbons, from 1000 up are very, very good......happy shopping...

You have a big space to fill with sound, and listen from a good distance away. A BBC-type monitor may have the nominal tonal balance you are after, but is made to be listened to in more of a near-field situation, so it could sound boring in your room. I agree about the sound of the Vienna Acoustics line, but a model large enough for you would exceed the budget, and I've only ever seen them in the natural beech finish. I think the Vandersteen (model 3a) and B&W (model 802 matrix) recommendations are good bets (the B&W is better) if you can find a late edition at your price point. Other suggestions: PSB Stratus Gold i, NHT 3.3, Snell B, KEF 105, and maybe Mirage M-2 if the front wall proximity is no less than two feet (these bipolar speakers are shallow in depth). As a Thiel CS2 2 owner, I will also add that I do not consider these speakers bright unless one listens at too close a distance (the first order X-over's mandate at least 10 feet for proper integration, true for the Vandy's and Dunlavy's as well), and I think they have a more accurate timbral response than a lot of "dark" sounding alternatives, but need high-quality partnering equipment. To me, they are outstanding for acoustic music.

Nice place! Cute cats. Sundae way cuter, even with eyes closed and fancy furs. And china cabinet, very cool. For fuller, classical music sound Dunlavys are perfect. In your price range, if you push a little you could get pre-owned IV's. They might be too big for your place and decor. I would go with II or III's . I have V and II's and the II performs very close to IV's except with much lower extension. II OR III will be perfect for that tall wall, being slim and tall. And the sound much fuller in all 4D. Yes it will give you the height perspective too. Although I do like Vany 2Ci suggestions (better value), but still not as good as Dunlavy where it counts-mid range.

Agreed, Vandersteens will work great for you. I've owned several pairs and am currently using 3A Signatures. Love Them in every way.

Another great choice for your room would be the VMPS RM 40's.

Check out the Gershman Acoustic Avant Garde RX 20's - beautiful speaker with great sound - comes in glossy piano black - great for classical music.

If you're principally into classical, I'm not sure how they'll look in that room (which looks GREAT!) but I'd suggest you listen to the speakers John Marks likes with the Plinius, the Shahinian speakers (Obelisks or other types). Unlike most other speakers you'll hear, but extremely musical and geared, I think, to the classical music lover. Good luck!

Hey Dudette, Any chance we could talk you into hanging a nice plasma screen TV on the wall?

I agree with those who lean toward british monitor speakers for the type of music that you listen to and for the interesting room that you will be listening in. I have always found that B&W loudspeakers are the best to use for classical music because 90 percent of classical recordings are mastered using B&W loudspeakers. They seem to work well for all types of music.
That being said I saw an ad for a used pair of Celestion 700SE loudspeakers on Audiogon with stands for $1200. A long time ago, maybe ten years ago, I owned a pair of Celestion 600's and they were very much what you seem to be looking for. I could not afford the 700's at that time but I listened to them frequently and absolutely loved them. A magnificent speaker for those who tend to appreciate the dark side of presentation. Good luck!!!!

Strongly second the Vandersteen suggestion. Every characteristic you're looking for is is a noted strength of the Vandy line. Including the famous black sock.

Should really be at the very top of your list for auditioning.

After reading through the above recommendations I'm shocked no one has yet recommended Vandersteens. I listened to the 3s at length and although they were a tad dark for my taste every other part of the spectrum was outstanding, as was soundstaging, dynamics, imaging, and overall coherence. If the 3s are out of your price range the 2s may also suffice, but by all means given your musical tastes go hear Vandersteens--they seem almost custom made for your preferences. Best of luck.

Tim

There's a Spendor dealer close by...who also carries Arcam and Plinius....
that'd be the next best thing to bringing them home....
Thanks....you helped me understand when a sub is needed....
appreciate your advice....!

and the Sonus GP and Vienna acoustics always seem to be mentioned for my musical taste....
I'd say they definitely must be on my audition list...!

..but if a few hundred makes a difference in the wow factor....

Cool cats, nice place. Sonus Faber might fit the bill. You also might want to look at and perhaps audition ACI's Sapphire III LE. I owned a pair and they were wonderful, and I think in line with what you prefer. Add their Titan II LE sub for the bottom end and you'd have it made. Very attractive build/appearance that should work well with your decor.