I think I've Just Seen Absolute Proof That Audiophiles Are Insanely Gullible
I didn’t want to crap on someone’s sales thread, so I thought i’d post my amazement here. The focus of my disbelief? The "Dalby D7-Vinyl Stabilizer," which is a damn weight that screws onto the turntable spindle to hold the record securely onto the platter. Listed retail? 4000 British Pounds! (although a mag listed it at $6,800! On sale here at AudioGullible for the bargain basement price of 2500 British Pounds, or $3600 US dollars!!! Just read a few snippets of the sales ad . . .
"The D7-Vinyl Stabiliser has a sonic character that brings music to life and the ability to elevate the entire audio frequency from the veil and mechanics inherent in prerecorded music. The gains are immediate, with sweeter high frequency extension while the mid and lower registers are beautifully controlled. The soundscape is wider, higher and deeper, allowing the music to breathe more naturally."
I’m sorry, but I’m calling total BS on this. A friggin’ weight brings "music to life," "sweeter high frequency extension," "allowing the music to breathe more naturally . ." Come on. Its a modified paperweight that screws onto the platter. One can only imagine what this guy thinks about some $20K interconnects for the turntable -- the music probably writes itself! And don’t forget the amazing improvement that a $4,000 carbon fiber mat might add . . . You probably would think you were hallucinating because the music breathed so much it was oozing out of the speakers, like on some of my more memorable nights in college in the ’70’s.
Now I have never heard this amazing gift to the audiophile community, so maybe it is the audio equivalent of the Second Coming, but really? $5,800 for this? It confirms to me that there is a certain insanity/gullibility/too much money/snake oil in this so-called "hobby," (which is a hobby to customers and ridiculous business for some manufacturers). When is enough enough? What about audiophile paint, that has amazing sonic qualities to cut down reflection and make the soundstage so wide that you feel you need a new apartment? Don’t forget the audiophile couch, that is sonically neutral but promises to position your ears to "bring music to life?" OK, I’ve made my point. No offense to the seller of the snake oil, but really . . . When is enough enough?
Hi, I have been following this and similar threads ( solely from the point of view of entertainment value) and I do respect everyone’s opinion if based on first hand experience. I too am a sceptic till I hear a noticeable difference, notwithstanding the explanation as to why the difference occurs.
To the person who raised the question about the Dalby clamp, has he/she ever heard a non-suspended, TT with a record clamp, leave alone the Dalby? I am not a fan of the cost but suffice to say that a clamp works wonders on a non-suspended TT and so does any form of decent isolation. I have heard it and so has every non-audiophile friend of mine who, unsolicited, told me that the record with the clamp in place sounds amazingly better in every way. Frankly I don’t even need them to tell me that. I have also heard clamps and isolation make an audible difference for the better on equipment that I don’t own just so that people here understand that this is not just owner bias. If really interested in finding out, do yourself a favor and listen to a TT with the clamp on and off and you will realise what I am saying. The caveat being it should be a non suspended TT.
I am in in no hurry to spend that kind of money to buy a Dalby, but my humble request to people is to refrain from commenting on stuff they haven’t even bothered to audition. I must say though, that it does contribute to an entertaining read but it stops there. I learn nothing from such rants except about the manifestation of the frustrations of the author!
How about that Nordost Odin 2 speaker cable? A 3 meter pair for a mere $23,000! Marked down from list of $46,000! No doubt that somebody somewhere will buy it!
Am I so original as I think I am for coining the term, to describe myself mind you, “Audiot?”
I’ve bought isolation footers/platforms/cable risers and a few other forgettable things since joining this site, but never have I parted with thousands in the process. (Almost all of the above had to do with eliminating vibration so...)
I don’t know a mosfet from a misfit, but I practice a fair degree of caution before I purchase anything - even though I sometimes buy stuff just for the hell of it, out of boredom/curiosity/having nothing significant to add to my system.
Fortunately, perusing the forums here has helped me avoid the snake-oil stuff by reading the hands-on experiences by fellow members. My system is set up the same way I have been setting up my stereos since high school - it’s pictured in the Virtual Systems section here- and while I’m certain many will be taken aback by its positioning and whatnot, I think it sounds marvelous.
We we all have to practice a little “forgive” for our systems. No one’s home is perfectly suited toward the artificial reproduction of music - and it IS all artificial - so while our attempts to better the sound from our gear is commendable, the second we take a seat in the room everything changes. Sometimes immeasurably, but nonetheless...
I can’t move my Maggies 4 feet from the rear wall, nor can I move that wall away from them. I can turn my system on though, sit down and enjoy the tunes, sometimes wondering what I could change to hear Ginger Bakers cymbal strike sound more “real”.
mceljo I was just chatting with a friend of mine today about some audiophile products that could easily be marketed with similar pseudoscience to what many products currently have.
>>>>>Have any examples?
Without stepping on too many toes, if Romex wire is what’s in the wall why wouldn’t it make sense for an audiophile manufacturer just built in some ideal connectors into the back of the component that would allow a custom run of Romex from the breaker box to the back of the component. Why have an outlet or separate power cord at all?
>>>>>Uh, I am pretty sure the reason is that most audiophile cables sound better than Rome’s. Case solved!
I’ve often wondered if a product like Nordost Sort Kones truly make a difference why wouldn’t a manufacturer of five figure pieces of equipment just include them with their gear as a "door prize"? Better yet, why not just design it right into the component since money is no object in the first place.
>>>>>Some manufacturers do use specialty cones, actually. Audio Aero’s CD player used those carbon Fiber cones.
Audiophiles often argue that tweaks are best utilized in the most discerning systems where there is sufficient fidelity to hear small differences. I’d argue that a $400 CD player should benefit from having better supports than a $40,000 CD player because at that price those types of factors should have been part of the original design.
>>>>>>Yes, the argument works both ways. Many tweaks are audible on inexpensive and expensive equipment/systems.
I think science would indicated that most of the audiophile targeted products that are advertised with pure pseudoscience are likely relying on the power of suggestion in most cases.
>>>>>>Which products are you referring to? Are audiophiles so weak they can be that easily hornswaggled?
Do people still paint the edges of their CDs green to increase the bass?
>>>>>Yes, they do. Works great. Thanks for asking.
Those are some brass b#lls to be asking for that. The higher hi end almost seems like an on-going dare between companies "how much can we get someone to pay for this before they tell us to take hike?"
I was just chatting with a friend of mine today about some audiophile products that could easily be marketed with similar pseudoscience to what many products currently have.
Without stepping on too many toes, if Romex wire is what's in the wall why wouldn't it make sense for an audiophile manufacturer just built in some ideal connectors into the back of the component that would allow a custom run of Romex from the breaker box to the back of the component. Why have an outlet or separate power cord at all?
I've often wondered if a product like Nordost Sort Kones truly make a difference why wouldn't a manufacturer of five figure pieces of equipment just include them with their gear as a "door prize"? Better yet, why not just design it right into the component since money is no object in the first place.
Audiophiles often argue that tweaks are best utilized in the most discerning systems where there is sufficient fidelity to hear small differences. I'd argue that a $400 CD player should benefit from having better supports than a $40,000 CD player because at that price those types of factors should have been part of the original design.
I think science would indicated that most of the audiophile targeted products that are advertised with pure pseudoscience are likely relying on the power of suggestion in most cases.
Do people still paint the edges of their CDs green to increase the bass?
And will someone please explain to me the benefits of cable risers.
Capacitance added, field interactions, vs added motor noise. High intensity fields and their associated transient fields in a vibrating environment.
The scenario is different if the cable is suspended. (VS lying on the given floor) Tying down cables in micro sensitive measuring environments is the norm, for those very reasons.
Our hearing works via micro changes in time and level, of many intermixed transients/peaks. That’s the only part of the signal we hear. Our brain decodes it over time. We are, overall, in the final analysis - the world’s best FFT analysis hardware, by a country mile. Audiophiles are highly trained, highly experienced ones.
If you look at the claims about the record clamp, or what goes on in audio cables, or any audio gear, it is exactly those things that are the majority of the distortions, and thus ..are the things we hear.
There is no mystery here, there is only an incomplete analysis of an incomplete question. That’s why it is mysterious for some.
with the proper framing, it becomes a question of..if the clamp needs to be $6000 or not. Each of us hears differently, we each ’built’ up our library of signals heard and decoded, as we grew up from being a child. It’s a combination of our innate wiring and abilities vs the next person’s. We each start with a basic similar neural and physical system/package but each hearing sytem execution and build...is different. The brain is elastic and we each learn differently, we each - hear differently. We each approach and try to solve the 'high quality audio' conundrum differently.
Thus some will find value in the given clamp, or cable riser, and some won’t. It’s not a contest, it’s not a ranking of skills, it’s not an ego attack. It just ’is’. Individually, in this case.
People who come to visit and see your speaker cables on risers know that you are a real audiophile.
Man, I learn something new here every day. I thought real audiophiles suspended their cables from fishing line attached to the ceiling - braid for smoothness, monofilament for value and
Fluorocarbon for added density. Stunning visual effect but somewhat low WAF.
I see your D7 Vinyl Stabilizer and raise you 2 Shun Mook Mpingo record weights. This whole expensive record clamp, weight whatever issue has been discussed to death. Time to move it along, people.
I received a "stock" clamp with my VPI Scoutmaster, but have only used it a few times. My records are flat. Even my lp's from the 70's and 80's. I've used it, but can't hear a difference. And will someone please explain to me the benefits of cable risers.
Talk about value, a bucket of steam is the epitome of value compared to a can of steam, and indispensable when serving clams or making froth on a latte
When it comes to meat Spam is perhaps the best for damping applications. Not too soft, not too hard, supremely elastic and supple. Spam, the veritable meat. By Hormel, The audiophile’s meat of choice.
@teo_audio, no outrage here, although there is a strong desire to rant. Yes, it is no surprise that a company that charges $1.9 million for a car no doubt charges a commensurately expensive amount for parts. That is not really the point here. What got and gets my goat is not the ridiculous price for a glorified paperweight, but the outlandish claims that are made to support why the glorified paperweight is going to make you think that its the Resurrection when you clamp it onto your LP. All of the silly audiophool language that cannot be proven in any objective way, such as "the music breathes so much more" or "the music sparkles like I've never heard before" when you use the $5800 paperweight. I have no problem with someone thinking, "hey, that is the $5800 paperweight that I have been looking for my whole life" and wants to buy it. That's great. I am objecting to the preposterous marketing claims of the alleged benefits of the $5800 paperweight beyond its cool looks and bragging rights.
The left/right signal flick arm end bulb on a Bugatti Veyron is approx $8000 to manufacture, according to the record of the reports. It is a piece of machined metal.
I’d wager far more of them (over 400 Veyrons) have been sold than this record clamp.
Where’s your outrage? Or is it just..somehow....placed here and here only? Is it just the desire to rant?
The psychology underlying your post, indicates that you are seemingly trying to bring the violence of the mosh pit back to life for entertainment purposes. When I called people out on it, it stopped it cold. You are trying to step through what I said and put the fire and flames back into it.
I won’t post here again. :) Not because I’m trying to slip away with my nose up - looking down at anyone, no not at all. Never done that, why start now. (we’re all in this together) Mostly because doing the right thing, like simply mentioning the fundamentals behind the gross inconsistencies .....is not good for our company reputation in the minds of some.
Watching these threads is like watching people put a weapon over the fence and take out their friendly and likeable neighbors, as they feel helpless in the face of a $100 trillion and more mess of a global psychopathic regime that they individually feel they can do nothing about.
Like watching hundreds of closeted and blinkered animals gnaw their own limbs off when stuck in a trap, as they can’t understand the scope of the entire trap scenario.
Some forums are moving to disallow this sort of discussion to even begin or take place.
Good for them. These threads....are totally counterproductive to the attempt of increasing the quality of the representation of the musical art to the human ear.
It’s literally death on wheels with flames and force, to the audio forums and their intent. Driving people who ARE connected....father and father apart, and out of audio...via violent and projected ignorance, about audio. About music.
Instead of going out there and dealing in the face, full on, with the real world things, the seeming overwhelming things..... that ~~must~~ be confronted.
Beating friends and family and people in their own homes, instead of confronting the real issues at hand. Just for that feel of making an attempt in an area they think they can understand and control.
Wrong venue, wrong emotions, wrong way, wrong confrontation, and so on.
Some of the funniest and unbelievably stupid things I read everyday are are in audioforums. It is stunning how many people are duped by claims of experts and arm chair prothlitizers. There is a lot of snake oil and out there and tons right false claims about numerous products. If it looks like a duck and sounds like a duck it probably is a duck.
Motor Man, that’s why I included knocking off the Mpingo disc in my previous post, because things are often not what they seem when it comes to these things. Like the diamond coating used in the Magico tweeter and the graphene coating used in the Magico main driver. You can't judge a book by looking at the cover. Have you ever seen what’s inside a Mpingo disc?
@geoffkait , I think you are off base on this one. Speakers first . . . Obviously speakers are complex interrelationships between components, crossovers, etc. Knocking one off is not necessarily impossible but more difficult than a brass weight, or a record clamp. The brass weight or the Shun Mook . .. the question is not whether those can be knocked off, but whether the knocked-off version sounds indistinguishable under uncolored testing conditions. That is really the issue here, I think.
"@almarg , "The real question, though, would be whether differences could be distinguished between this $6800 weight and another 3+ pound weight having similar contact area and costing say $50 or so."
You are exactly right. The question is not whether a 3 pound weight makes a difference . . . Its whether a $5800 brass and "lignum vitae" weight makes a worthwhile difference over a 3 pound $50 brass weight. I find it highly doubtful."
That’s pretty much the same type of thinking that motivated such nuggets as, "Wouldn't a plain brick work just as well as a VPI Brick?" or, "Why can’t you just knock off the Shun Mook Mpingo disc? How hard could it be?" Or, "there’s no way I’m paying $20K for the new Magico speakers so I’ll just make my own. How hard could it be?"
@almarg , "The real question, though, would be whether differences could be distinguished between this $6800 weight and another 3+ pound weight having similar contact area and costing say $50 or so."
You are exactly right. The question is not whether a 3 pound weight makes a difference . . . Its whether a $5800 brass and "lignum vitae" weight makes a worthwhile difference over a 3 pound $50 brass weight. I find it highly doubtful.
I design and sell a clock that is, while still a clock, totally unlike the Tice Clock in terms of operation, though obviously also rather outlandish - the Clever Little Clock, now in it’s third incarnation. Would you believe the CLC received a Brutus Award from Positive Feedback and (to make matters worse, so to speak) the clock, which is battery powered and can be placed anywhere in the room, underwent a blind test conducted by the reviewer and his wife? What the Clever Lil Clock illustrates so handily, hang on to your hats, is the effect of time itself on our sensory perception of the sound.
Regarding blind testing, in this particular case I would certainly expect the differences between the Dalby D7 and most other weights or clamps to be distinguishable, at least when used on most turntables. As I intimated in my post dated 2-2-2016, in fact, I would think that its 3+ pound weight would even damage many turntables, eventually if not sooner.
The real question, though, would be whether differences could be distinguished between this $6800 weight and another 3+ pound weight having similar contact area and costing say $50 or so.
Likewise, while the article I linked to about the Tice clock in my post dated 2-5-16 mentions that in "a blind test ... Frank Doris [a reviewer] was able to detect the Clock with statistical significance," as I said in that post:
I wonder if anyone who may have claimed to have heard positive results from one of these things ever went to the trouble of doing a thorough and honest comparison between the effects of the Tice Clock and the effects the $30 Radio Shack version may have had under the same circumstances.
@tomcy6 , so true! Pull the blindfolds out and see what reviewers say about a product! That would be embarrassing indeed! The key is that they don't know whether they are listening to the super duper best thing since sliced bread or the same $20,000 "old technology" trash that they drooled and fawned over last year. I'd love to see that!
I have what I consider to be an costly system that I built up over the years of $50K.
I think it sounds great. and has all the sound qualities described in the mags that mega buck systems claim to have.
I have been to shows that have many rooms set up with $100k and up systems.
Most all sound much worse than my home system. And store setups are the same!
WHY???
The explanation of "RICH" audiophiles, and dealers of big buck audio is
They take many days to "tune in" before they sound great. The people setting up the systems are not familiar with the mix of different equipment. The rooms are "Odd" sizes, and shapes. The music is bad. You have to sit in the sweet spot. The power quality in the hotel is crap.
That is all crap! Period! Why can’t these systems, at the very least, sound very good???
The truth is, big buck systems are most all, "way over hyped", to anyone that is rational at all!
This is the opinion of many, many old audiophiles and all most all outsiders.
The extreme high end, which is now all that is left, will not admit this fact!
When "High End" comes up for discussion in the "real word" we are "all" idiots.
The "big buck" people that are the new majority, are responsible for that view. They use to be the minority, now they rule!
Common sense is not very common.
In the end, and it is the end. Just enjoy what "you" have!
A couple of points. People talking about audio components or the "best" version of a particular album are usually very clear that their choice is by far the best, no comparison.
Secondly, I don’t think we need a statistically valid, new prescription drug class double blind test. That’s what the "no blind test" people hide behind, saying it would be too difficult and expensive to organize, and it probably would be.
All I want and think is necessary, is for someone who thinks A blows away B, be it wire or recording or whatever, is to put on a blindfold, sit down in his own listening chair and correctly identify the amp, cable, tweak or recording that caused his jaw to hit the floor when he could see what he was listening to.
I just want to make the point that a properly designed double blind test is not needed to test audio claims.
I have always suspected that the fastest way to clear audio reviewers out of an open bar at an audio show would be to pull out some blindfolds.
@agear , my music system is currently Focal Diablo Utopia III’s, a Plinius SA100mk III upgraded and reconditioned power amp, a Plinius M12 upgraded and reconditioned pre, and a Naim NDX to stream music (FLAC or DSD, as available) from my server to the Plinius. I don't think that I have fallen for any snake oil charms yet, at least that I can recall, although I do remember some somewhat expansive claims about one HT pre/pro being "so much better" than my old one, but I didn't notice much of a difference, at least in sound quality. Do MIT speaker cables count? I was using a pair of Cardas Golden Cross cables, and replaced them with MIT 3.3's. Although the whole "poles of articulation" that MIT uses to market its cables smells of BS, and I'm not sure if there is any bona fide technical evidence of that concept, I definitely heard a difference and liked how they sounded with the Diablo Utopias better than the Cardas, although I was not "blown away" by the improvement.
For the skeptical protector of naive gullible audiophiles there’s a lot to get the blood boiling. One need look no further than $15K stereo cartridges, $125K speakers, $48K speaker cables, $12K power cords, $24K interconnects, $110K turntables, $6K power strips, tiny little bowl resonators made of pure platinum or gold, amplifiers at more than $100K, $86K DACs. What’s the retail price for the Shun Mook Mpingo record clamp these days, assuming it’s even available which I doubt? That ought be sufficient to bring on a brain aneurism in even the most world weary skeptic.
@agear , I peruse AudioGon all the time. I am always surprised at some the enormously priced cables, interconnects and equipment. However, I do know that cables sound different, and equipment sounds different -- maybe not $20K better than a $1K cable, but who knows. But sometimes, claims are made which literally leap out at me and cry for comment because of the claims vs. cost vs the product. If the Dalby was $700 or $1000, I wouldn't have blinked. But $5600 US for a record clamp with the overblown claims in the ad . . . As I said before, enough is enough. I'm not sure if you were joking about friends having them and "swearing by them," but it again proves my point that once you're committed to a purchase, it becomes fabulous and you buy into the claims. But in a double-blind test . .. Highly different result, I suspect.
I have audio buddies with top drawer systems who have earnestly fiddled with various clamps and found this one to be the best. There is hyperbole attached to a lot of audio products, threads, etc. That is nothing new.
You did not answer my questions. System? Any vignettes of gullibility or are you some transcendent audio being who makes no mistakes?
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