Muffled vocals

Isn't there any way you could borrow a turntable and a few LPs or a "better" CD player or DAC just to make sure it's not the Marantz? Check the low hanging fruit first in a process of elimination. Music Direct and others offer a 60-day money back return.

I dont think you need to change components, a square room makes it hard to dial in soundstage and imaging. You may need some absorbion panels and I would start with bass traps in the corners behind the speakers.
Experiment with quilts, blankets, and pillows in the corners. As you stated, the large bass drivers may be affecting the image.

In my room, 12' x 16', placing thick absorption panels in the corners facing the speakers helped shape the soundstage and gave clarity to the vocals.

cal91: Sorry to get off topic there.

With anything technical, I've almost started with the process of elimination. If shifting your speakers, as per technik and Elizabeth, doesn't help, then is there anywhere that you could borrow or try a different (preferably higher level), CD player or Dac?
Just a thot.

@cal91, according to the owners manual of the Lyngdorf, there are 3 pairs of analog inputs, and the photos show them quite clearly. Enjoy ! MrD.

Riiight, excellent! that's where my speakers place him.
That's a start.

It took me 4 days to get mine dialed in, Elton John piano is on the left side alot not just center stage.

Teknik:  'Your speakers at 30 from the front and 28 from the sides are to similar"

Good grief - that's right! I need to figure out a way to correct this with my speakers! But this tuning procedure always takes time and experimentation and I've been isolated from the hobby for too long. Thanks for the tip, even though it was for another forum member.
Rick

Oh yeah ... also, when said that Elton John's piano is never center stage; I meant when he performs. So, it really shouldn't be centered between the speakers, I wouldn't think. N'est ce pas?

And Elizabeth, I've been using some well-recorded Mozart, Pink Floyd, and Linda's 'Heart Like A Wheel' album as a control pieces to try to get the speakers in the perfect place. (perfect ... sure).
I tried to choose artists that I wouldn't get tired of listening to. I love the sound of Linda's voice; never get tired of it. And it stages well, too.
I have the current placement taped, so I'll shift them a little more.

Geez mon, I hope we're allowed spelling errors. Lol.
As soon as I read your bit about the similar dimensions side and front, it clicked. Yes, everything I read suggested unequal distances.
I was concentrating so much on the music, and trying to ID and assess the changes that I forgot that point.
It sounds pretty good right now, but not for all genres of music. Rock, female vocal and orchestra are quite good, but Jazz doesn't stage well.
I'll alter the dimensions this week and maybe I can improve it more.
Thanks.

Dave.

The front wall is for bass' not base.

The distance between the from wall and side walls need to be greater. The front wall is for base and soundstage, the side walls are for timber and image . You need to find a good recording like Jennifer Warrens Famous Blue Raincoat where her voice is dead center and adjust your speakers front to back till her voice is dead center. Your speakers at 30 from the front and 28 from the sides are to similar, try further apart and adjust the toe in so you can barely see the inner side of the cabinet. The distance between the speakers and your listening position should be 1.2 X the distance of the distance between your tweeters.

The above speaker suggestion is WASP and takes time to fully understand and get correct but if you take the time you will be greatly rewarded. Speaker placement I believe is another component and is as important has your other primary source,dac/server, TT, pre, amp, power, cables.

When I got a new DAC/SACD player, (and pretty new way better speakers) I found using female vocals I could better arrange the speakers to give me a better defined soundstage with perfect vocal reproduction.. ONLY by moving the speakers to find that spot.It was close to where I had them, but without moving them the vocals were still indistinct. It was a matter of inches.

Your room is very close to the size of mine, cal91. From what I had read when I was setting things up, I was very hesitant to move the speakers closer to the front wall or further apart.
I finally kept pushing them further out, one week, and now they're 30" off the front wall (to the front of the speaker), and 28" from the side walls (from the center of the speaker), which puts them 8' 10" apart.
They're toed in about 20 degrees.
The sound-stage is now the best it's been; wide and deep; and the vocals are more centered.
However, I've always found that vocals are offset L or R a little, especially if there is more than one singer. One sings to left the other sings from the right. And Elton John's piano is never at center stage.

My ears are just under ten feet from each speaker.

Anyway, hope this helps.

Dave

You people are amazing.  I didn't expect this kind of response to my little problem.  The Lyndorf is all digital and my model does not have room correction.  It has analog outputs but no analog inputs. It is connected to the amp with an Audioquest digital coaxial cable. My listening room is small and the speakers are very large.  I'm beginning to believe that the room is sometimes overwhelmed by the two 10" woofers on each speaker.  That said, some recordings sound very good and others not so good.  I have to admit even some vocals sound good.  Nora Jones "Don't know why" and Leonard Cohen's recordings sound clear and upfront.  But in other recordings that are known for their high quality like Steely Dan, Peter Gabriel, and Lucinda Williams, the vocals are weak, volume-wise, and sound behind the instruments.  I have tried the speakers far apart and pointed straight ahead, 5 feet apart and pointed at the listener, and everything in-between.  Currently they are 7 1/2 feet apart and pointed almost at the listener.  I am 8 feet away.  The speakers are 3 1/2 feet from side walls and 4 feet from the wall behind the speakers (I've heard this wall referred to as front and back).  The room is 15' X 15', painted drywall, 9 foot ceiling (acoustical tile), carpeted floor.  There are two windows behind the speakers with curtains.  One side wall has French doors that are covered, the other side wall has a window with curtains.    

cal91:  I, like you, have a comparatively basic CD Transport. (wow, I really needed that comma after the 'I', huh?). It wasn't until I purchased a good Dac that I began to enjoy listening to my CDs.
The sound just bloomed; sound-stage, detail, vocals, positioning.
I did have to adjust the room and the speakers for a while to make the sound-stage really wide and deep. I do have an inexpensive tube Pre which probably helps, but the biggest change was getting a good, musical Dac to play the transport thru.
Hope this helps.

Dave

The Marantz CD6006 is a fine player for the money. It's the last place I would start to get vocals forward. Imaging is affected by phase response and the CD6006 has excellent phase response. The player uses the audio circuitry from the much more expensive units. It maybe just a tad lacking in absolute smoothness, but overall it is excellent particularly in creating a realistic sound stage with capable equipment. 

It appears the Taylors may be partially time aligned, but this may not result in minimum phase error. I imagine they will have a small sweet spot both horizontally and vertically due to the upper woofer.

Given the speaker is about 60" tall, ear height should be about half that to minimize smearing between the woofers. A good portion of the male vocal range may be reproduced by the woofers and the unequal path lengths and reflections could be the issue.

It would help to know your room size, openings, floor treatment, furniture and equipment position.

I was thinking the opposite. The Lyngdorf is all digital. If you send in an analog signal it will re digitize it. 

Both mofojo and I asked about the digital out of the Marantz cd player. The cd player has a very good dac, maybe the digital out is a weak link. You should try using the analog outputs of the Marantz into the amp. 

I seriously doubt this is a source issue.  If I were you I'd attack the problem directly.  Find a way to borrow another integrated and pair of cone speakers and swap them one at a time.  If either solves your problem you have your answer.  My first thought was that that this sounds like it's being caused by some unintended digital room correction or, as others have mentioned, a phase inversion issue.  Changing equipment and re examining wire connections (which you've already done) will obviously rule out these possibilities. 

Then again this could be a perception issue since you don't listen to vocal recordings as much.  Do ALL vocals sound like they're "in back?"  By "in back" do you mean they sound physically behind the instruments or that they sound lower from a volume perspective, or both?  Some speakers are designed to put you in row three of a performance where things seem to be more right in front of you, and others put you further back so you "see" the performance as a whole in the context of the venue and the sound typically comes more from behind the plane of the speakers (I suspect your Tylers are more the latter).  When you move the Tylers closer to the back wall do the vocals sound any better to you?  If you put on something like a Diana Krall studio recording and she's not front and center you definitely have some other issue.  Anyway, hope this helps in some way and best of luck!

All room correction devices build using cheap  ,no professional
measuring microphone , and computer based equalization,
it is help to solve the acoustic issue   you room and loudspeakers.
basically is  tools not for hi end.
 i think is better, of course is more money , get real acoustic treatment
and hi quality LS. LOl

Same name Bache , most of my speakers build arround widebands
drivers , you can read some post  https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/why-aren-t-more-speaker-designers-building-augmented-wideband... or my website

I would tend to agree with Erik. This seems mostly a room acoustic problem.

@bache
What speakers have you designed?

kenscott@
  nobody, but for my point of view , as speaker designer , is very, very  small
no more 5%

Just had an ex industry friend help me set up a pair of speakers yesterday. They are ported, 3 driver floor standers in a large room. We started them close to the wall (14” away) put down some blue tape, made 1” lines and started moving them forward. We move them about 4” at a time. The speakers had no toe in and we kept moving them more and more forward listening to the same track for 25 seconds. We consistently found the closer to the wall the more the Vocals were muffled. Changed the track, did it again to confirm distance away from the wall. Then we did the toe in, 25 seconds, move, verify.

I’d say zero everything out, get some blue tape and try the above. It helped having a second person for a saniety check and to move speakers while the other listened. Once you get very close then run your room tune.

My source is a bluesound vault 2, MQA files via Tidal feed by blue jeans coax at 192. We could hear a huge difference (bad) when they were too close to the wall for my room and those speakers. Would my system benifit from a difference source or cables, sure, how much, who knows?

Best of luck.

For vocal reproduction quality is 99% is speaker itself'
You can try to change wires , room correction , source ,
etc but this is waste of time

In my experience, all things equal, the CDPs in general don’t contribute as much to the soundstage - detail and resolution yes but not soundstage. Magnepans in general tend to exaggerate instrument and vocal/singer size and dimensions so they are a poor baseline/reference. Assuming your room correction is off, try pulling the speakers more into the room and see if that helps. Also, try live recordings like Stacy Kent, Madeleine Peyroux, etc., where the singer(s) tend to stand further out front on the stage and see how they sound. In my experience, what you’re describing is a characteristic of speaker, type of content, and/or room placement and not the quality of the source.

Are you using the digital out of your cdp or the analog outs into the Lyngdorf? 

The venerable Altec Valencia's have a mid-range presence lacking in most contemporary (and touted!) speakers! They certainly can bring the performers right into your listening room!

Digital is still in second place for realism when compared to a good LP playback system! Check out Fremer's Analog Planet site! I am glad I held onto my analog gear and LP's when everybody was ditching theirs! "Perfect Sound Forever!" - NOT!

Here is a question since the Lyngdorf does room corrections might something be set in a way that's pushing the vocals back? And is the Marantz connected to the Lyngdorf's digital or analog inputs?

cal, 

Have you tried the lyngdorf's room correction features? 

Best,

E

All connections are correct.  I just listened to Bitches Brew, Kind of Blue, and ended with Double Violin Concerto. They all sounded great.  Better than the 1.7s I replaced. Put on Lucinda Williams and the instruments were clear but she was in the back, unlike the 1.7s which made vocals sound like they were coming from a giant.  Since I don't listen to vocals that much I guess I'll just have to put up with the annoyance, but I am going to look into a better player.  Suggestions?  Keeping in mind I don't have Elizabeth's money.  Thanks again.

Try to listen different speakers,

Seems like you are using the Marantz as a transport. Try the analog outputs of the cd player into the amp to try and hear any change. The report on the cd player indicated it had a decent midrange, as they tested it using the analog outs.

Sounds like one of you speakers is out of phase. Double check your wiring to insure you have maintained correct speaker wire phase for both speakers. Red to right (on both the amp and speaker ends of the speaker cable) and black to left.

Just noticed what your integrated is doing. Make sure you have disabled all room correction and tone controls before making any further judgments. :) 

OP:

If you can't hear a difference it is NOT your acoustics or placement. You may have bad speakers. See if you hear music out of each driver, and compare left to right. You'll have to get close up. 

Best,

E

Cal91. Do you own earphones? How are the vocals via phones?  I know before the 20.7s the only good way for me to really hear vocals in Rock records was to use earphones!  Jazz was usually fine through my 3.6 Maggies But Rock lyrics just were hard to understand. One way to improve clarity is with some sort of powerline conditioning.

It sounds like something is out of phase. Reverse the leads on one speaker and see if that helps!

cal91
Try tilting the speakers up a little. It worked for me once when I was having this problem years ago.

I haven't figured out how to respond individually so I'll do a group response.  akg-ca: I know the Marantz is the weakest link and that's my next upgrade.  Thanks.  Elizabeth: I mostly listen to classical, jazz, and blues.  I can listen to Mozart operas, but it's not my favorite music.  My equipment is certainly no match for yours, but I still believe it should be doing better than it is.  Thanks for the insult (just kidding).  erik-squires: I tried your suggestion and couldn't discern a difference.  Thanks

Try the close listening test. 

Walk up to your speakers and listen 1' away. Are the voices in better proportion? 

If so, your problem is room acoustics. If not, electronics and speakers. 

Best,

E

I just spent an additional $21,000 to move up to Magnepan 20.7 (from 3.6) and buy a DAC/SACD player.With those added to my sstem, I can finally hear Rock vocals better.What I just said is your stuff is not good enough to hear the vocals clearly in (particularly) Rock music. Want clarity? Stuck to Opera.

It is impossible for anybody to offer up more than a guess ... so here is my guess:

ignoring the high  probability of a poor quality recording pressing , then its likely your cdp that needs significant upgrading to match up to the performance quality of your integrated amp . Everything is built to its pricepoint and the Marantz is only a $500 spinner .... you only get what you pay .

the following review view says it all as its prevailing wart:
https://www.whathifi.com/marantz/cd6006/review

"....Favours easy listening over out-and-out detail....