Synergistic Research Acoustic ART analogue room tr
I'd like to take a stab at whoever is responsible for this nonsense! The Greeks and Romans used "sounding vessles" in their open-air theaters to produce reverberation, not a desireable trait for audio listening. http://www.vitruvius.be/boek5h5.htm |
take a look at the treatment size, The bowls are smaller then a shot glass. I would guess that they are to small to even make a difference in a broom closet not alone a fair size listening room. The price of this room treatment is a staggering $3000.00 mark without providing measurment's.I believe room treatment must be thick and large to make a considerable difference in one's listening room. |
Well, I hate to introduce any observations into the already decided thread, especially given Audiofeil is always on the mark but without evidence or experience based conclusion. At the RMAF of 2008, I stumbled into the Synergistic Research suite, not expecting much. Although I knew the name, I had no experience with anything they built. I also had much unsatisfying experience with digital equalizing my room, RoomLens, Shakti Holograms, RPG diffusors, etc. The demonstration of the ARTs consisted of music played using Esoteric amps and Avid speaker and SR Tesla cabling. The ARTs were installed after a cut of the music was played, they walked around the room removing the five pieces that go into the ARTs. Then the replayed the music. Everyone in the room exclaimed disappointment with the sound. They then reinstalled them and replayed the music. They did another demonstration removing the charge on their cabling. I was much less impressed with this demonstration. There was a "show special" by the Cable Company, I bought them. It took a good deal of time to place them in my room. Initially a friend asked if he could remove the two side wall units and I said yes. He preferred it without, although where I stood, I heard a collapse of the image. I then sat down and had to agree with him that the sound was more immediate and live without them. Ted Denney suggested that I lower them and move them toward the listening chair. After several tries, I found a place where the image was evident even standing to one side, but the music was more immediate. I am not concerned with convincing anyone, but I did tell a group of doubting thomases from Philly the morning afterwards to attend the demonstration. Many of them did buy sets. |
For $4k-$5k you can get a professional consultation on your room's acoustics (by companies like Rives Acoustics), and then implement a major portion of the science based, acoustic engineering recommendations. I've said it before, and I'll bang it home again. There are few, in any, professional sound rooms and studios that utilize small bowls and discs to accomplish their acoustic requirements. As always, though, everyone is free to spend their dollars wherever they see fit. |
Tbg, they simply can't be doing anything to the sound waves once they're out of the speakers and into the air/room, because 400 years of experimental physics say it isn't possible. Maybe they have an affect on the working of the equipment itself? I wouldn't know, but that's not what the manufacturer asserts. On the other hand, I'm in no position to refute what you say you experienced. What I strongly refute, however, is what you seem to believe caused that experience (i.e. the bowls.) So where does that leave us? Autosuggestion? Self-hypnosis? Herd mentality? All those causalities are worth exploring, and maybe some others I've not thought of. But my point is that whatever mechanism is responsible for the experience of a difference, or improvement for the listener(s), lay with them, and not with the hardware. One of the pillars of the art of magic, is "mis-directed attention". And who is to say one must have the services of a magician to accomplish it? |
I am not concerned with convincing anyone, but I did tell a group of doubting thomases from Philly the morning afterwards to attend the demonstration. Many of them did buy sets. with all due respect, I was part of that group of "doubting Thomases" you refer to. Only one individual from our group purchased the product. As far as I know his are still in the box... |
I have my dedicated room designed by rives level 1 ( only available choice) and it doesn't solve all issues. Also construction needs to be quite precise. Anyway I heard acoustic resonator at KL Hifi show 2009. U need to hear it to believe it. Frank tchang can make the sound tilts at 1 side, hollow in the centre and all kinds of magic. I certainl I did rives level 1( only level available) for my dedicated room. It doesn't solve all problems and construction need to be precise . Did some modification after living with it for a couple of months. Last year at KL Hifi show frank tchang was demostrating his acoustic resonators. He can shift the sound to whichever side u want, create a hole in the center etc. It's definitely voodoo magic if u never heard it. U got to hear it to believe it that a small cup can have such an impact to our listening pleasure or displeasure . it ultra expensive. However what is not expensive in the audio world? Anyway I decided to try out ART after reading the long thread fr audiocircle and fr reviews of ART. I can hear an immediate tightening of the base and playing with the nos of magnet of the vibratron certainly i I I i I did a dedicated room rives design level 1 ( only level available to me). Doesn't solve all problems and construction needs to be precise. Have the opportunity to hear acoustic resonators during KL Hifi show 2009 and frank tchang was demostrating his voodoo magic with his tiny cups. He can make the sound shift to left and right, make a hole in the centre etc etc. Howevr the tiny copper , silver, gold , platinum is ultra expensive. Again what is not expensive in the audio world. After reading abt ART in audiocircle( long thread) and fr reviews, decided to buy a preowned fr audiogon. It make obvious difference which I prefer. Now it's a permanent feature in my dedicated room. There are a lot of controversies in audio world, powerconditioner voodoo, cone voodoo, pc voodoo ( how can 2m wires improve sound whn there are miles of lousy wire fr power station?) but it works for those who have experimented with it. So guys give it a try before labelling it as voodoo magic |
For the skeptics, I can understd that u don't believe a small cup can make so much diff to a big room. I wouldn't as well unless I hear it myself. Anyway many moons who would have believe power cond, footers few hundred $ can make a improvemt to the sound of ultra expensive transport, preamp, poweramp. Who wld have believe a 2m pc can have a hugh impact on yr listening pleasure when there are miles of lousy wires fr power station to yr room. Well listening is believing. Well this is my 2cts worth of opinion . Be happy, hobby is to be enjoy. let's disagreed or agreed respectfully. Happy listening |
Hip hip hooray to the person who claimed he knws abt analog in his website and the rest of us are idiot who can't hear things which only he is good enough to hear. Voodoo mouth who has nothing good to post. I knw analog? Then why represent some inferior products. Irrrespectful reply to a irrespectable seller by the way I bought it at less than 40% of what the person who knws abt analog but don't knw how to post respectfully |
Nsgarch, actually it is called pseudo science. It is better than rejecting science which many of our species do, but it also assumes that we know everything about nature and humans and need to heed no further observations. It still perplexes me how anyone would say physics has told us that once the sound leaves the speakers it cannot be changed. Oh, well, you can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make him drink. |
Tbg, I'm sorry. The "they" I was referring to was the little bowls themselves. What physics tells us is that for a rigid object, rigidly mounted, to reflect a sound wave in air, it must have its smallest dimension at least half that of the wavelength to be reflected. Working the math backwards, if the largest of these devices is half the size of a CD case (3 inches), then it could reflect a 6 inch (.5 foot) long sound wave. Sound travels at ~1100 ft/sec in air at sea level. 1100ft/sec. divided by .5 foot = 2200 Hz (cycles per second) the lowest frequency which that object could reflect (or be excited by to make it resonate.) A wave front leaving a loudspeaker quickly grows to over a hundred square feet just a couple of feet out from the speaker. If these devices are roughly 9 sq. in. in area (1/16 of a sq. foot) it would take approximately 1500 of them in front of EACH speaker to significantly reflect (or be excited by) any frequency above 2200 Hz -- and that's just for the largest of these little devices. The key word here is "significantly"! Sure, everything affects everything else. Cryogenics, pyramids, etc. I'm totally down with the "butterfly effect"; however, it takes a LOT of Monarch butterflies beating their wings IN UNISON across Mexico to affect the weather in China ;--) If the people at SR had provided some test results showing the amplitude and frequency at which a single one of these devices resonated when excited ONLY by the frequencies generated by an audio system in a typical room, then I would consider them to be "active". However I would also probably conclude that one or two of them wouldn't be enough to SIGNIFICANTLY affect the sonics of of an audio system. To wit -- from the SR website, it says very clearly: Ted visited Buddhist Temples and observed how Tibetan Prayer Bowls altered temple acoustics. These singing bowls affected a sudden shift in acoustics whenever they were activated, and when additional bowls of varying tone were also activated, the acoustics continued to change. Ted reasoned that a system of resonating bowls could be developed to discreetly treat room acoustics without the need for large unsightly tuning devicesHave you seen the THOUSANDS of bowls in a typical Buddhist Temple? Sure, they resonate all right, but as in the above quote, they have to be "activated" -- and NOT BY THE CHANTING OF THE BUDDHIST MONKS! They have to struck with a mallet!! Perhaps someone struck Ted with a mallet and he thought it was the bowls that were resonating ;--) I hope that clears up the basis of my skepticism. Neil . |
Myself, I heard a slight difference for the better. I won't presume to speak for my friends however. In my case, I already have a Rives designed room treatment situation. The difference I heard in the room at the Marriott did not convince me that it would make a difference in my room. The "show price" was far too high (MSRP even more so), to justify the expense. Why it is the one person who did purchase has not used them is a question you would have to ask him about. I was not questioning the efficacy of the product as much as I was questioning your sweeping generalization that members of my audio group purchased the product based upon a brief demo in a crappy sounding hotel room. |
I have never posted on any forum before this, but there is such controversy over whether resonators such as Synergistic Research ART and Franck Tchang's little bowls actually DO anything that I just feel I have to say something !! Audiofeil and Nsgarch are ABSOLUTELY RIGHT !!!! . Resonators such as the SR ART can't possibly work because the laws of physics tell us that it is impossible. And of course bees can't fly for exactly the same reason. So I know that when I see a bee flying it is is only an illusion. I see the bee flying because that is what I WANT to see and therefore I have convinced myself that the bee is in fact flying. And then of course there is Xeno's turtle. Xeno mathematically demonstrated that nothing can move from point A to point B. So when I get up out of bed in the morning and move my butt from point A (my home) to point B (my work place) I am not really at work at all. I am actually still at home on my bed enjoying another hour or two of peaceful relaxing sleep. Or better yet, I am at home still enjoying my SR ART enhanced stereo, which in fact I can't hear at all because it doesn't make any sound due to the fact that, as Xeno showed, nothing can move. Therefore the sound waves do NOT, in fact, ever arrive at my ears. My being at work is just an illusion because that is where I WANT to be and therefore I have convinced myself that that is where I am. Then there is the question of existence itself. Nothing can possibly exist because in order for anything at all to exist something either had to have always existed or something had to have just suddenly just sprung into existence out of nothing. Even the pea sized blob of concentrated matter that exploded at the big bang had to have always existed or had to have somehow just suddenly come into existence from absolute nothingness. (So too a creator). The ideas that something ALWAYS existed and/or just suddenly came into existence are both contrary to logic. They aren't even imaginable. (Try to seriously imagine something always being there without any beginning whatsoever. Bet you can't do it without asking yourself over and over again, ''But where did it come from?'') So it looks like I have simply convinced myself that something exists because that is what I WANT to believe... but waaaiiiiit a darn minute!!! How can I POSSIBLY convince myself that things exist??? I DON"T EXIST !! So... bees can't fly because the laws of physics and aerodynamics say they can't; I can't get to work because mathematics can demonstrate movement is impossible; I can't really hear my stereo for the same reason; and I don't exist because my existence is not logically possible... AND, of course... Audiofeil and Nsgarch are absolutely right ... resonators can't possibly work !!!! And since God has, as of yet, failed to provide me with any test results to prove that anything exists, It would seem that the whole universe is nothing but... SNAKE OIL!! Oh, and by the way, I won't be participating in this forum ever again... not because I don't want to, mind you, but because I don't exist. Therefore I can't participate. But then didn't Descarte say, ''I participate, therefore I am?'' |
I now have some further experience with the SR Basik ARTs. I have a small room in my summer home and sought Ted Denney's advice on whether I could do something to make a 10 x 13 x 8 room. He advised two sets of the $500 Basik ARTs and how to use them. I did have a very positive benefit from them, but will further experiment with them this summer, using the new advice I found at the RMAF. I have now used these Basiks in my main system which already had the original ARTs, putting the base stations in front of my speakers as I saw at the RMAF. Additionally I have used four of the Basiks on the speaker wall at six inches from the side walls. The lowest of these are at the level of the Vibratron and the others 18 inches above them. This had the effect of sounding like crosstalk in the system had been greatly reduced. My sound stage sounds much wider and defined. I have no patience with those who don't experience any demonstration of these devices but dismiss them out-of-hand based on their limited understanding of science. No true scientist would reject observational effects. I will not respond to such nonsense and post here only to express my personal experiences. |
"Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd." - Voltaire I believe there is a causal explanation for anything we can observe -- and that includes our own sometimes over-active imaginations ;--) It's certainly true that (current) science often lags behind observed phenomena -- certainly no reason to dismiss the observation itself. In other words, it comes down to how comfortable one is with "not knowing". Richard Feynman, the world-famouns quantum physicist, mathematician and Nobel Laureate, quite eloquently, put it this way: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MmpUWEW6Is&feature=player_embedded I think the problems (OK, the arguments) begin when 3 audiophiles in a room each make a similar observation, while 3 others, present at the same time and possessing normal hearing, observe no change or difference at all. Both groups can't be "right", or can they? I would be inclined to say they can; while remaining comfortable, for the time being, with my inability to explain how that could be. Thanks Richard Feynman ;--)) . |
most of you deserve to be taken..just laughable. I know this is an older post but cam across by complete accident. Three grand for acoustic treatment the size of a CD case.Anything placed in a listening room will affect the sound. A ceiling fan,candles,rug and book case. The larger will affect much more that's the rub. But little cups on the wall for 3k and I should hear it first to determine if I want to part company with my cash. No way in hell and when pigs fly. I can see you guys are ready for the info commercials that swear that they can give you killer abs with 10min of easy exercise as long as you use their ab machine...lol keep dream-in. |
I had an experience with the SR ARTs last night that suggests their impact. Like I first saw in the last RMAF in the SR room, I have bass stations 5.75 inches in front of my Tidals. Accidentally, I bumped one and knocked it over and out of position. I thought I was putting it back exactly as I had had it. Last night, I was not getting the performance that I had had the night before. I thought ultimately that it was just me and my mood, then I noticed that I had put it backwards-the cup was facing away from the speakers. I turned it around as was the other bass station. That was the problem. Placement is of great importance with these devices. Too close or too far away from the speakers can matter greatly. |
>>02-04-11: Tbg I thought ultimately that it was just me and my mood, then I noticed that I had put it backwards-the cup was facing away from the speakers. I turned it around as was the other bass station. That was the problem.<< ROTFLMAO Wanna borrow some pots and pans? Better yet, maybe a Dunkin' Donuts travel mug. You can't make this sh** up folks. |
Say Norm, I see stereotimes signed you up as a reviewer. Do they know 2 other ezines terminated you (both in the same year) for unethical and unprofessional behavior? Well at least you get the trade discount to feed your habit. What's the over/under on how long you last, 2 months? I'll take the under. LOL |
I find it odd that Audiofeil can make all the inane postings he wishes to make and can include the expletive s**t whenever he likes but when another poster wants to challenge him directly, that posting never reaches the forum. Why is it that Audiofeil is allow to get "in-your-face" with anyone he wants to spam but if he is taken to task with an "in-your-face" response, that response goes unheard. Why is Audiofeil allowed to be heard, ad infinitum, but those who disagree with him and who write in the same style that he uses can be assured that their postings will be disallowed? |
Yesterday, I got a second Synergistic Research ARTs Bass Station. I had had two Basik Bass Stations in front of my speakers as they were used by SR at both the RMAF and CES. My ART Bass Station was placed in front of my subwoofer again as done by SR at both shows. The second ARTs BS allowed me to compare the two types of Bass Stations in front of my speakers. My impression from the first few notes was that the true ART BS had much greater impact in controlling the bass and on the sound stage. With them in place, the sound stage expands and opens up greatly. Placement of the ART BS as with the Basik is very sensitive. Too far out harms the impact of the bass information. Too close in harms the openness of the image. Since the ARTs Bass Station costs three times what the entire five piece set of the Basik system, this is an expensive move, but there is no question that it gives a substantial benefit. |
