I recently completed a several year quest to acquire a new cartridge. This quest was basically a major PITA and a nightmare!
Why? Well let’s take a look at what will be in store for all cartridge buyers’ in the US...and possibly other countries as well..IF they are seeking a top flite cartridge , like I was.
Firstly, and here’s where a big part of the problem lies: You will typically be unable to audition any cartridge under consideration...certainly not in your own home and more often than not, at your dealers either.
Then we have the fact that these products are closely monitored for who and whom can act as a dealer...which is then severally restricted by territory and distribution. We then add that the pricing is very well controlled...CAN WE SAY PRICE FIXING...which in most states is an illegal practice...but seems to be the rule here.
Let’s begin with my story...and then I am hoping that members will chime in here with their thoughts and probably also their own ’horror stories’....
About three years ago, I decided to acquire a cartridge that would replace my aging but still ok Benz Ruby 2... I wanted a cartridge that would surpass that Benz in most areas...and one that would be priced at about $3-$5K. A lot of money to be spending on this piece of gear...or so I believed.
At the time, I was considering the following models....Benz LPS MR, Koetsu Urushi and Rosewood Platinum and the Lyra Kleos, Delos, a EMT, the Kiseki Purpleheart, Air Tight ( entry level model at the time..cannot remember what it was called) an Ortofon A90--and a Transfiguration Proteus--lastly one of the ZYX models. After some research, i discovered that the Ortofon’s, the Zyx’s and the Transfigurations wouldn’t work with my set up --due to too low an output by the respective cartridges for my all tube phono stage. So this left the Kiseki, the Koetsu’s, the Lyra’s and the Benz’s...and possibly the Air Tight model.
Circumstances changed and my cartridge buying escapade was put on hold...until a few months back. In the few years since my last foray, I find out that Benz have basically gone out of business ( again!!) and so has Transfiguration. Meanwhile, the Van Den Hul line has come into the US again...this time with a new distributor. The Zyx line has totally been updated and the Lyra line is now more available than before...at least in theory. The Koetsu are now handled by Music Direct...who have essentially doubled the pricing across the board! Oh, i forgot, the Lyra line has increased by about 25% across the board ( i don’t think inflation can account for this!!) So where to start auditioning --the answer...nowhere! Instead I am supposed to rely on various dealers enthusiastic recommendation for these products...except for the fact that one dealer tells me that Koetsu’s are the best thing since mothers milk- and the other tells me that Koetsu’s are horrible with all the faults under the sun...( at least the ones that are in my budget..see above!) Can I hear any of these for myself...either in my system, or at the respective dealers...heck NO! ( and don’t think this type of scenario/ behavior isn’t consistent for other brands as well!--irrespective of whether the dealer(s) carries said brand or not!).
Here I am left with the choice of dropping several thousand dollars on a product that a) has no ability to be heard in my own system..therefore having no clue as to the results that I will get, b) has absolutely no return policy c) can be easily damaged by myself or others in the case of incorrect mounting to the tonearm...and lastly...and this is the one that really annoys me the most: I must shop for these products at a very limited amount of vendors who all are naysaying their competitors and acting extremely unprofessionally in the process. ( Do i really have to talk to the prospective rep for the line in order to determine the compatibility of the cartridge under question with my arm, the reasoning behind the asked price, where the dealer is that should be selling me the piece in question ( so as not to cross territorial lines) and on and on!!)
Then we have this little bonbon...The damn Japanese sourced cartridge(s) is available on several Japanese web sites at a price that is usually 50 -60% of the retail price here in the USA!! And that price in Japan is still at FULL RETAIL! ( Yes, I know it cost a ton of money to ship these things from Japan to here ( since they weigh a ton), LOL).
Where does this leave the US consumer in regards to the acquisition of a top flite cartridge...IMO the answer is between a hard place and a rock..You either pay through the nose and get totally ripped off by the likes of Music Direct and the various small independent reps in the US for these cartridges, or you takes your choice and risk buying from a grey market vendor abroad...but at a fraction of the price! BTW, mysteriously most of the top flite Benz cartridges continue to be very available from a vendor in China who seems to have cornered the market?? What’s up with this??
I can go on and about this journey, as I have just began to scratch the top of the heap in this story, but let’s hear from you guys as to your experiences and thoughts.... Was your top flite cartridge acquisition an equal nightmare, or was it something else?
Add to that as you increase the budget, the more it becomes not just frustrating, but also economically more untenable. Not saying that plenty of folks don’t have any issues with the economics, but I happen to know of more than a few folks, who have incredibly deep pockets, that do!
This is a relevant and as it turns out, entertaining thread. I’m thinking I could improve my analog system and think starting at the source, i e cartridge, makes sense. I have a high quality TT w/ a high quality compliance-matched tonearm, and good components down line. But I’m also spooked by the risk/return of a cartridge purchase. Whether or not I can afford a “high end” cartridge doesn’t solve my desire to feel confident in the decision to buy it. I want to hear it, after run-in and properly installed on equipment that’s reasonably similar to mine. And unless I can get a loaner/demo that’s next to impossible. I have no real answer other than agree it’s frustrating - unless I simply start throwing money at the problem hoping to eventually find something to keep.
Often you can get a sense of cartridges by reading not only the reviews but what many people have to say. As you are on this forum you know you have to read a lot. Are people agreeing on characteristics? Warm? Analytical? What do you like? Can you buy a demo at half price from a rep on audiogon who has excellent feedback? Even if ebay has better prices buy from somebody in the US who is known to be a superb seller. I've done it twice with two sellers on audiogon after reading a lot about their cartridges and they were great to deal with. And their cartridges were to die for.
I mean what else can you do? Nothing I'm afraid. If you dislike it sell it. Your loss is your price to have auditioned it. Nobody said this is a cheap hobby. It can be crazy expensive. We all know that and it means enough for us to pay the price. You surely know that as well.
Have bought a couple of relatively inexpensive cartridges and other items from Juki in the past. Wouldn’t hesitate to deal with him and, if I recall correctly, he did take a fairly expensive cartridge back on return/exchange once from someone posting on another forum.
Took a quick look at his feedback and didn’t see any Koetsu feedback (he does have some listed) but did notice a couple of feedbacks on pretty upmarket cartridges (Ortofon A95 and Dynavector SV-1S) in the past few months, both of which sold at substantial (really substantial actually!) discounts to the U.S. prices. It appears they are essentially being sold without the U.S. distributor/retail chain mark up.
You really have no idea about what I am concerned about, do you? Please re-read my OP, and attempt to understand why the current high priced cartridge buying status quo isn’t, at least imho, a very palatable scenario for the high end cartridge consumer. Let me give you a simple example of why I think this is a problem... You have just gone out and spent $10k on a new cartridge, one that you have never heard before( because no dealer stocks it, and because even if they did, they are typically not demoing this model; or assuming that they do have it on demo, the arm and table that they utilize is VERY different to yours). You plunk down your hard earned cash— ? , and the dealer mounts it for you, or maybe you do it yourself , either way, the cartridge is now on your own arm and table. Presumably safely mounted and correctly set up. You give it a listen, and... ooops, it sounds like sh—t! According to your philosophy, no problem, after all, what’s $10k to you, lol. So, now your options are a) sell cartridge used for a significant $ loss, b) learn to live with the debacle and be a BiG man, or c) see if the dealer will somehow accommodate you given the fact that he highly recommended the cartridge in the first place... please do ‘enlighten’ us as to which one of these is your position.( somehow, I seriously doubt it’s b...) Now, I’m not saying that I expect all dealers to allow me to first try expensive cartridges in my own system first, without some kind of off-setting compensation...that’s your assumption.
BTW, are you a cartridge dealer or manufacturers rep, because if you are, I can easily tell that you have little to no concern about your customers,or their customer satisfaction.
The key world is "buying", not "trying". Japanese sellers does not provide trial option for the cartridges they are selling on ebay (the goal is just a low price). The OP problem is that he can’t buy, he want to try it first. He’s looking not only for the most expensive cartridges like Koetsu, he also would like to try it and return it used or even damaged back to the seller (or to a distributor). In his ideal world distributor have to lose money on people like him and return those opened/used cartridges back to the manufacturer for full refund? So if some people (who can’t even install $100 cartridge) will destroy 10% of the bunch of $5k cartridges (by trying them in their systems) it does not hurt anyone (dealer, distributor, manufacturer...) and all for free.
Used market is not for him, he need a new cartridge to open sealed box by himself and then return it used. How many cartridges he would like to try like that until he will find what he need (10-40) ? At the distributor’s cost anyway. Good idea? This is what this post is all about.
Buying cartridges is a "nightmare" for him, no free demos :( For some sellers people like him is a "nighmare" to deal with.
This is where his ideal world meets the reality. Welcome to the world.
@handymann An excellent question! One that I would like to see answered as well. Interesting data point. We have several vendors on eBay in Japan selling Koetsu's, as an example. NONE of them have ANY feedback from buyers about their Koetsu buying experience...NONE! Plenty of feedback about inexpensive items that were acquired from these vendors, none on any higher priced cartridge sale...hmmm!!!
Does anyone have any dealings with buying carts off of EBay, from Japan. The savings is tremendous. I’ve read from dealers, they come with no warranties.
Reflecting on this a little more, there certainly is a dealer in China, who is active on this forum, selling Benz cartridges, among others, at excellent pricing. However, he is not an authorized dealer for these brands. As a grey market vendor, I wonder how he seems to have such an unending supply of these cartridges? I mentioned this in my OP.
Interesting, I believe I spoke to John. Since it would appear that these guys are no longer the US representatives, I wonder why they lead me ...and my dealer friend,to believe the company was no more. Since I had a deal with my dealer to acquire an LPSMR, I wonder if they couldn’t be bothered to source it for us! If that is the case, I think that is pss poor customer service! Like i stated above, it would not be the first time a representative that has lost the line acts unscrupulously. Now I have more questions about that, but I have acquired another cartridge entirely, and so it is moot to me now. Pity, as my dealer friend ended up not being able to assist me with any cartridges and lost the sale. ( he represented only Benz and Transfiguration).
I don't recall seeing any Benz cartridges on sale in Tokyo, as of last June. Or any time before that, either. But since I wasn't actually looking for a Benz, it could have escaped my notice.
Yes. I spoke to Musical Surroundings today and they said Benz Micro was in business, but selling their product primarily in Europe and the Far East. Did you talk to John or Garth?
daveyfOP1,051 posts“11-17-2018 10:03pm@fleschleri am replacing my 21 year old Benz Ruby 2, and if it were possible to have upgraded in the Benz line, I would have. Unfortunately, I am told that Benz is once again, no more!“
That is why when my Benz Ruby 3 goes down due to a worn stylus I won't rebuild it at Soundsmith. Friends have informed me that the cartridge I get back won't be the same, probably worse sounding, azimuth off, different stylus shape, etc.
However, I am willing to purchase a Cardas Myrtle Heart which is the same cartridge but with a different body. I don't know why they did that, the Ruby 3 is great as is. They also sell an all silver coil version which sounds different (higher resolution).
I just wonder how different a properly loaded Ortofon Cadenza Bronze or Dynavector XX2 will sound if I can't get a Cardas.
@tatyana69.Please do tell us how your Benz is going to be serviced now that Benz has gone? By Soundsmith??? Sure, that is ’if’ you want a totally different SQ... IME, re-tips by aftermarket vendors never end up giving the same result as a re-build by the original manufacturer. Personally, I don’t shop for a cartridge based on the cost of the future re-tip/re-build. That aspect is to me of lesser importance, because I am unlikely to do that for several thousand hours- and therefore the cost is essentially amortized over the life of the cartridge. However, what does concern me far more, is the issue that the company that I just bought my expensive cartridge from, is likely to be there in the future...in order to do the re-tip/re-build. While no-one can accurately determine this aspect, there are some companies that IMO have a higher probability of being around than others. Benz has had ’issues’ for years.
I actually agree with the basic sentiments that started this thread. It’s impossible to listen to everything in circumstances that resemble your listening environment. It’s all a bit of a leak of faith.
I would add add that I have a Miyajima Kansui on my arm currently. In the stable are a Shelter 901, Koetsu Redwood, and a Madrigal Carnegie 1. The fact that Miyajima offers very low cost factory retipping must be mentioned. Makes me wonder whether the Koetsu is worth it. But, I have to say the Madrigal does some things better than the others. Just my results.
I am surprised at the comment that Benz have gone bust. I am sure that is not the case. I am so pleased with my Benz LP that I bought 2! In any even they can be serviced quite happily without regard to going back to Benz. I heard the top of the range Dynavector xv1t at a friend's house and was so impressed I bought one. I am very pleased. I heard the top Lyra in my system and was impressed at how smooth it was. My girlfriend likes it because of that (well she likes me so obviously she is an expert in smoothness!), but to me it was excessively smooth and lost impact along the way. It would have been an expensive mistake for me to have bought the Lyra on spec. I work on the basis that a good dealer (mine) will make great attempts to "accommodate" you on prices once you have found what you want, and if they know what you like then can guide you and narrow down your margins of error. Dealers do not stock new cartridges as that would be horrendously expensive.
I'm all of a sudden reminded of a scene from the classic movie "Stripes" starring Bill Murray, John Candy and Harold Ramis, where a private named Francis comes into the barracks and says..."If any of you guys touch my stuff.......I'll kill ya". AND... if any of you homo's touch ME.......I'll kill ya. Then you hear Sergeant Hulka say...."Lighten up Francis". lol
@ghn5ue You bring up an interesting point. I was hoping that Benz was still supplying cartridges, and had actually made a deal to a acquire the LPS MR from one of my local dealers. He called me and told me the situation, which lead me to cancel the order. I then confirmed this with the distributor for the US...Musical Surroundings. Now, if Musical Surroundings decided that they wanted to torpedo the Benz Micro company due to some internal scenario, that I cannot say! ( and it wouldn't be the first time that a disgruntled distributor has done something unscrupulous like that....!) However, I have no knowledge that this is the case, and no reason to believe that is the situation.
Is Benz really out of business? Website simply says it is down for maintenance. Distributor in Canada says they have stock. Have not been able to find any more information other than the original post and a post of the Steve Hoffman forum by the same person.
I had not heard Benz went out of business (again?). I’m making my way, slowly, through a process of upgrading carts and am just not sure what my upper limit is.
My methodology has been to try a moderately priced cart in the same brand before even considering something approaching $2000 and I’m not sure I could bring myself to even go there.
Considering a Benz Gold LOMC only to see that model missing from one of the major online retailers. Currently own a Hana EL and a Dynavector 10x5 along with my trusty Denon DL103. I could easily one up within Hana or Dynavector based on my experience with both so far. Hana just introduced some upper range carts and Dynavector has quite a few upper options.
I’m spinning on a Micro Seiki BL-51 with a new Jelco TS-550S. Not sure how high I want to go.
Boys, I travel to Tokyo frequently and when there I haunt audio salons in my spare time. You will never see a Lyra cartridge overtly for sale in Tokyo. Likewise for Koetsu, maybe excepting their lowest cost models. If you ask a salesperson about Koetsu or Lyra, they don’t know what you’re talking about. Likewise also for Clearaudio and several others aimed at the foreign market, i.e., outside japan. Other good brands can be found but there’s little price advantage especially considering the lack of a US warranty, like Audio Technica. That still leaves a few relative bargains, e.g., Shelter and Ikeda and a few brands we don’t see here in the US.
I inadvertently posted these comments on the latest Madavid "rip-off" thread (Tonearms), earlier today. Sorry.
Cardas still sells the Benz Ruby (don't know which version) as a Cardas Myrtle Heart and Cardas Silver Heart cartridge on their website http://cardas.com/cartridge.php These are new cartridges. I really like my Benz Ruby 3 because it balances the warmth and the neutrality/resolution of current cartridges. Several lower priced cartridges sounded good to me at audio shows, the Dynavector XX2 and Ortofon Cadenza Bronze. The
XV-1s is too expensive for me.
I sold a ton of SOTA + Jelco + Dynavector Ruby back in the day....many of them still running.....
and the Gyrodeck :-)
IF someone has a line on a well cared for Ruby and or AC-2, I would love a PM
as for the RP-10, I have a Lyra Delos on a BASIS w REGA arm and am getting great sound.....BUT there is absolutely nothing wrong with an Ortofon black.....
As long as we are on the subject of cartridges, I want to bring up LAST stylus treatment and LAST record preservative. I started using them in 1967 or 68 when they first came out. What they do for records and stylus longevity seems to be pretty extraordinary. I am still using my original AC-2 which shows very, very little sign of wear. My records, if cleaned with the original record cleaning fluid and the treated with last still sound virtually new (unless somewhere along the way I was clumsy). Not only new, but better than new because the dual treatment of record and stylus removes a lot of high frequency "tizz" and replaces it with smooth, smooth, accurate highs.
The stuff is expensive (it was then, and is even mores o today, but boy does it seem to work.)
Pretty hard to recommend cartridges for someone. Folks can recommend something that will work compliance wise on the arm but as far as this sounds signature it’s very personal. I find cartridges either fall into the warm and syrupy sounds or into the lean and analytical with everything in between. What you liked will depend on how the rest of your system as voiced.
I think for the folks who don’t agree with the current pricing, the answer lies in older use the cartridges. As I said in a previous post I felt my NOS fidelity research bested my Topflite VDH in someways and was not quite as good in others. But as a whole I felt it was slightly more enjoyable and definitely offered far far far better value. That folks to think more expensive equals better run out and buy the current top-of-the-line stuff. In five years we will pick it up for pennies on the dollar but it probably won’t be any better than the Fidelity research I’m currently using.
Chakster - I use a 12 year old Benz Ruby 3. Is that considered a vintage cartridge today?
No, it's not a vintage cartridge. They are all from the XX century
I had a Dynavector Ruby 23r back in its day. It was both relatively neutral and erred on the warm side (but I really liked it). Then I got the original Karat 17 which was really, really fast sounding but less involving and bright (I've been told today's Karat 17x3 is superior). My Ruby 23r stylus wore out back in the late 80s or early 90s.
I've tried both, but only very rare "S" versions. The difference is the stylus profile, which is MicroReach (aka MicroRidge). Here is my 17DS and 23RS MR. Another nice Dyna in collection from the old days, but not as good as the 17DS and 23RS MR.
I like so many others, started out with MM carts and eventually made the MC upgrade and the phono preamp as well. I started out with basic entry level Denon MC cart. Of course I suffered the same dilemma as yourself. Volumes of hifi magazines and the ubiquitous moving coil reviews. Well being of average financial means I started buying second hand moving coil carts, trialing them and then on selling those carts till I found the cart that was ideal both sonically and economically. I was very happy with the Benz Micro Glider S. The real problem is when you have such a great cart and you close you eyes and feel your there with the artist, you are always going to find it increasingly difficult to find another cart that gives exponentially great performance no matter what price.
Benz was really good, but most other makers and even Benz themselves moved on a lot past that 2 series, I think. You might be very pleasantly surprised if you do take a chance on a reputable makers' cartridge in the 2-4K range. Certainly I'm sad to see Benz go (again), but there are other great cartridge makers in top form today.
@fleschleri am replacing my 21 year old Benz Ruby 2, and if it were possible to have upgraded in the Benz line, I would have. Unfortunately, I am told that Benz is once again, no more! This would have made my selection process a lot easier. Nonetheless, the only vestiges of these cartridges seemingly now lies in the hands of one Chinese vendor...who is selling grey market.
I didn't read all 227 of the current responses but I would seriously consider Soundsmith. A dedicated owner if there ever was one, and not just to cartridges or music but to people. I will be having him rebuild my Sumiko Blackbird for about a third of the cost of a new one.
Chakster - I use a 12 year old Benz Ruby 3. Is that considered a vintage cartridge today?
I had a Dynavector Ruby 23r back in its day. It was both relatively neutral and erred on the warm side (but I really liked it). Then I got the original Karat 17 which was really, really fast sounding but less involving and bright (I've been told today's Karat 17x3 is superior). My Ruby 23r stylus wore out back in the late 80s or early 90s.
Van den Hul claims 3500 hours for his longer lasting styluses. Ortofon claims 2000 hours (except for the Cadenza Bronze where somewhere I read 3000 hours for clean playing condition & pristine LP condition leads to excess playing hours).
I have been playing my LPs using an SME IV modified with cartridges in the medium compliance range which is mated to the arm. With correct installation parameters, my Benz Ruby 3 is lasting longer than any of my previous cartridges (of course smog killed/hardened internal parts of many Dynavectors in the 70's and 80s after only 3 years each). Even the earliest Lyra cartridge I owned back in the 1999 to 2006 lasted maybe 1800 hours.
I'm glad to find that there are other Accuphase aficionados here. I haven't heard the AC-3 so can't comment, but in no way would I describe the AC-2 as anything but neutral in both transient response and frequency response.
Since I've started using Hi-Fi Shark I've been exposed to trading forums around the world and I have been a bit startled to see how many AC-1s and AC-2s are bought, sold, and traded in the Asian countries, with Japan leading the way. Harry Pearson liked the AC-2 but by that point much more so with the more expensive but more colored cartridges. So the AC-2 never became "big" here as it did in Asia. And to the best of my knowledge neither the AC-1 or AC-3 were ever imported here.
I'm in the thousand dollar or less crowd, I own an Ortofon 2M black they sell for 8-9 hundred dollars. I listened to a lot of MC carts but felt the black gave me more of what I wanted to hear at a price of thousands less.
I have an original still good Dynavector Ruby 23.. Gee $2000?
Paid about $600 for NOS Dyna 23RS Super with MicroReach stylus (they call it Reach, not Ridge) on ebay this summer. Amazing cartridge, will blown away many $2k carts
Yes, the Accuphase cartridges tend to fly a bit under the radar, which I think is the primary reason you can still purchase one without stylus or broken cantilever at pretty reasonable prices. I paid $112 on Ebay.
My system is certainly not ultra high end; the Accuphase is on a Jelco 750D with an aftermarket mounting collar and a Yamamoto HS4 carbon fibre headshell (a really nice headshell and a pretty substantial upgrade over the stock Jelco headshell) on a Michell Gryodec running into an Aqvox phono stage. The Aqvox is a current mode stage that tends to work better IMO with low impedance designs so the Accuphase is a good fit there.
The AC2 I have is probably also on the warmer side of neutral, but just slightly and not overtly warm like the lower end Koetsus IMO. My AC2 also originally had a sapphire tube cantilever; I’m just guessing, but I would expect that switching to the boron cantilever when Andy re-worked it probably warmed it up a bit as well.
Rumour has it that the AC2 and the Monster Alpha Genesis 1000 (both Nakatsuka designs-unlike as you pointed out the newer Accuphase cartridges) are essentially the same cartridge but I really can’t confirm that and the Genesis 2000 that I believe followed the 1000 was apparently quite a bit warmer than the 1000 so maybe the AC3 was cut from the same cloth and followed a similar path?
I would think your Kuzma arm should be a pretty good match with the AC3 in terms of effective mass/compliance as both are in the medium camp but perhaps you might have a better match with one of your other arms.
My system does not really warrant expenditures in even the $2K-$3K range in cartridges and from what I’ve heard in the uber expensive cartridges in much better systems than mine I still think there is compromise involved and subjective preferences come into play when it comes to purchasing a single cartridge.
I didn't mean to suggest that the AC2 was the equal of current offerings in the $5k-$15K range-I'm sure there are better cartridges out there. Just not at a cost that I'd like to absorb.
But I’m a bit of a cheapskate and quite taken with my AC2. And if it's as good as the average $3000 cartridge, I am still thrilled! I think I can live happily ever after with it, but haven’t we all said that before?
@hdm Interesting tale about your Accuphase AC2. There isn’t much forum activity on Accuphase cartridges. I have an AC3 that I purchased new and have run in for several hundred hours on a Kuzma 4PT. It’s a good cartridge, but a bit plush and soft-focus for my tastes. It's probably just average at the $3K price level. I need to try it on some other arms before final judgment. It’s rumored that recent Accuphase cartridges are sourced from My Sonic Lab.
@harrylavo Very NICE post. Thank you for not posting the usual drivel about why are we discussing this subject etc.,
I also read extensively HP’s work. He was one of the very few writers who generally called it as he heard it, as such I think you could put some reliance on his review. Assuming, of course, that you tended to agree with his aural thoughts and discoveries ( which I did). Unfortunately, I think there were two problems in later year with this approach, one of which you mentioned. That first problem was that as time went by, HP tended to rely on his memory, which as you pointed out wasn’t a great way to go. The other problem, which you didn’t mention, is that he was getting the results that he did with matching to certain gear, if there was a synergy, he didn’t report on the synergy aspect, only on the result of the particular piece in question ( which IMO is ok). However, the risk of a non synergistic alliance was still a factor, as it is today! Today, I think the aspect of synergy with the ancillary gear is more important than ever, and will show its ugly head quicker if you get it wrong. That, plus the fact that the writings of people like MF are, at least IME, not anywhere near as reliable in regards to their findings as HP.
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