I recently completed a several year quest to acquire a new cartridge. This quest was basically a major PITA and a nightmare!
Why? Well let’s take a look at what will be in store for all cartridge buyers’ in the US...and possibly other countries as well..IF they are seeking a top flite cartridge , like I was.
Firstly, and here’s where a big part of the problem lies: You will typically be unable to audition any cartridge under consideration...certainly not in your own home and more often than not, at your dealers either.
Then we have the fact that these products are closely monitored for who and whom can act as a dealer...which is then severally restricted by territory and distribution. We then add that the pricing is very well controlled...CAN WE SAY PRICE FIXING...which in most states is an illegal practice...but seems to be the rule here.
Let’s begin with my story...and then I am hoping that members will chime in here with their thoughts and probably also their own ’horror stories’....
About three years ago, I decided to acquire a cartridge that would replace my aging but still ok Benz Ruby 2... I wanted a cartridge that would surpass that Benz in most areas...and one that would be priced at about $3-$5K. A lot of money to be spending on this piece of gear...or so I believed.
At the time, I was considering the following models....Benz LPS MR, Koetsu Urushi and Rosewood Platinum and the Lyra Kleos, Delos, a EMT, the Kiseki Purpleheart, Air Tight ( entry level model at the time..cannot remember what it was called) an Ortofon A90--and a Transfiguration Proteus--lastly one of the ZYX models. After some research, i discovered that the Ortofon’s, the Zyx’s and the Transfigurations wouldn’t work with my set up --due to too low an output by the respective cartridges for my all tube phono stage. So this left the Kiseki, the Koetsu’s, the Lyra’s and the Benz’s...and possibly the Air Tight model.
Circumstances changed and my cartridge buying escapade was put on hold...until a few months back. In the few years since my last foray, I find out that Benz have basically gone out of business ( again!!) and so has Transfiguration. Meanwhile, the Van Den Hul line has come into the US again...this time with a new distributor. The Zyx line has totally been updated and the Lyra line is now more available than before...at least in theory. The Koetsu are now handled by Music Direct...who have essentially doubled the pricing across the board! Oh, i forgot, the Lyra line has increased by about 25% across the board ( i don’t think inflation can account for this!!) So where to start auditioning --the answer...nowhere! Instead I am supposed to rely on various dealers enthusiastic recommendation for these products...except for the fact that one dealer tells me that Koetsu’s are the best thing since mothers milk- and the other tells me that Koetsu’s are horrible with all the faults under the sun...( at least the ones that are in my budget..see above!) Can I hear any of these for myself...either in my system, or at the respective dealers...heck NO! ( and don’t think this type of scenario/ behavior isn’t consistent for other brands as well!--irrespective of whether the dealer(s) carries said brand or not!).
Here I am left with the choice of dropping several thousand dollars on a product that a) has no ability to be heard in my own system..therefore having no clue as to the results that I will get, b) has absolutely no return policy c) can be easily damaged by myself or others in the case of incorrect mounting to the tonearm...and lastly...and this is the one that really annoys me the most: I must shop for these products at a very limited amount of vendors who all are naysaying their competitors and acting extremely unprofessionally in the process. ( Do i really have to talk to the prospective rep for the line in order to determine the compatibility of the cartridge under question with my arm, the reasoning behind the asked price, where the dealer is that should be selling me the piece in question ( so as not to cross territorial lines) and on and on!!)
Then we have this little bonbon...The damn Japanese sourced cartridge(s) is available on several Japanese web sites at a price that is usually 50 -60% of the retail price here in the USA!! And that price in Japan is still at FULL RETAIL! ( Yes, I know it cost a ton of money to ship these things from Japan to here ( since they weigh a ton), LOL).
Where does this leave the US consumer in regards to the acquisition of a top flite cartridge...IMO the answer is between a hard place and a rock..You either pay through the nose and get totally ripped off by the likes of Music Direct and the various small independent reps in the US for these cartridges, or you takes your choice and risk buying from a grey market vendor abroad...but at a fraction of the price! BTW, mysteriously most of the top flite Benz cartridges continue to be very available from a vendor in China who seems to have cornered the market?? What’s up with this??
I can go on and about this journey, as I have just began to scratch the top of the heap in this story, but let’s hear from you guys as to your experiences and thoughts.... Was your top flite cartridge acquisition an equal nightmare, or was it something else?
@daveyf a simple check of the suspension after a few years of break.
@lewm if he wants to keep a record of the cartridges entered in his laboratory he can mark the serial numbers that every 50 year old head has on it and should ask the owner if he wants to put his damned permanent signature on it. Imagine if every hi-fi repairer put his signature on the front or on the chassis of the electronics that repairs ... Mark Levinson, Accuphase, Audio Research etc.etc. all signed by the repair technician. :(
He also treated my father’s Nakamichi MC 1000 in the same way, except that in this head he limited himself to sticking stickers everywhere, in the body, in the box, in the owner’s manual, in short everywhere, and the work (substitution cantilever and stylus) also if it was done over 35 years ago it is horrible .... maybe that day it was drunk or it was still a noob; my father first and I then after having inherited it we have never had the courage to use it in 35 years for fear of damaging the records, only now I decided to remedy the bad work by sending it to another cartridge man to do it all over again.
best-groove, Has it occurred to you that vdH may mark cartridges he has worked on so that, if the cartridge shows up on his bench again years later, he will have a record of his work and the date thereof? I admit it's an eccentric practice but probably without malicious intent. Ten years from now, you may in fact benefit from his having done it.
@best-groove. I can sort of understand your frustration. However, how did the cartridge sound when it came back to you, was it as good as when original? If so, I would think that this would override the issue with AJ doing his thing. When you say a simple check...what did AJ actually do...besides mark up your cartridge?
I have been sending them all to Van den Hul for retipping for 20 years at least. He does excellent work at a fair price.
Too bad it has the bad habit of sticking VDH stamps everywhere and to sign with the electric pen every cartridge that has been entrusted by the owners for a simple revision or for a full refurbishment. For a simple check of my Audioquest 7000 has engraved in his body bottom with the electric pen his signature, month and year without asking consent and all this has greatly annoyed me; I still can not wont send cartridges to this person.
@tsloan You sound like another dealer who is trying to justify this practice. Or maybe you are just fine with the status quo and are happy to get fleeced...either way, very weak, IMO.
"Where does this leave the US consumer in regards to the acquisition of a
top flite cartridge...IMO the answer is between a hard place and a
rock..."
Poor Davey has just three thousand or maybe even FIVE THOUSAND
DOLLARS to spend on a phono cartridge and the mean ol' audio industry
has just too many traps & tricks.Your essay clearly expresses your suffering.I think you are in the wrong hobby my friend. Or stick with digital technology. It's a lot more...binary.
I have a mark Levinson mlc1 cartridge from around 1981. It has been retipped twice by van den hull and the suspension has lasted more than 32 years. I am going to send it to Torlai in Italy to get it repaired. I have ordered a Benz LP.S
@gilles130 if anyone would like to repair the suspension then it’s also impossible, same logic, ZYX cartridge body is sealed, nobody knows which material has been used by Nakatsuka-San for suspension/damper. If you proceed via official distributor then you will get a brand new cartridge or next model, but all you need is to ship your original cartridge back to Japan via distributor to get special discount for the next one. They do not repair or retip ZYX, they will give you a brand new ZYX. You can’t do that with grey market cartridge from grey market seller who manipulates with serial numbers. End of the story.
For those who would like to save buying grey market product there is no benefits when it comes to retip (or suspension repair) they can only proceed with third-party vendors to get some sort of Frankenstain instead of original ZYX. In my opinion ZYX cartridge is for rich dudes ready to pay for a new one when the first one is worn out (full support from the manufacturer if the high price is not a problem).
You ended up with another cartridge, me too So ZYX is not for me.
What I wanted to say is 2juki seems a serious man but buying a aux is a different thing. On pinkishmedia the English official importer said that it's s rare than zyx cartridge need retipping as the suspension generally fails or get jammed up with debris.
On my French forum a few members have bought at 2juki without problems.
No problem until you would like to upgrade the cartridge officially when it's time to (when the diamond is worn), so you can not do that with grey market ZYX with fake serial numbers (Nakatsuka-San refuse it). You can only proceed with third-party vendors, the problem is that no one can give you the same cantilever and the same stylus mounting style, look at the picture of my Airy III original cantilever.
You guys have seen too many James Bond movies. As against Chakster’s experience with 2juki, there are many others who have had good experiences buying from him. (I purchased a used, vintage tonearm from him, not a cartridge, and I was very pleased with the transaction.) The risk for a new cartridge would be that the distributor in your own country would probably not honor the Japan-only warranty. Why should he? I am certainly not questioning Chakster’s veracity here. I’d like to know more.
Well, used items is another story, no problem with them or with vintage stuff he could sell. But the question is why a brand new ZYX products is cheaper from him than from anybody else? Serial number of the very old ZYX appeared on a brand new ZYX cartridges from Juki. My own brand new ZYX Airy III came with fake serial number. I did not tell about the source when i asked to check serial number with US Distributor and Japanese manufacturer.
I’m not sure where 2juki would get a ZYX cartridge with a "fake" serial number, in the first place, unless the implication is that the cartridge is not new or not what it is labeled as.
Serial number most likely replaced by him or his supplier who would like to remain unknown, this how someone trying to get rid of the overstock by selling products to greymarket dealers (to sell them for much lover price than official price, even with discount). This is a real war between manufacturer/distributor and grey market sellers.
What i can say for sure is that a distributor will be happy to make a discount too, maybe not all of them. And to make a good contact with a honest distributor is much better than with a grey market seller (imo).
On my French forum a few members have bought at 2juki without problems. Zyx cartridge are another problems. 2 members have bought zyx and received not working cartridges, they got an exchange. But other members got non working zyx from an official importer too. So zyx is a bit special and on WBF forum one member got a 15000 dollars zyx not working. So there are rumours than zyx use subcontractors, hence the grey market and non reliability problem. Personally my zyx airy got the suspension destroyed before 1000 hours so my next cartridge will not be a zyx. A pity because zyx sound fantastic.
Once I settled on a cartridge, I stay with it. I’ve gotten decades of use out of the Benz and the Koetsu Rosewood Platinum. The Onyx is a relatively new addition.
I have been sending them all to Van den Hul for retipping for 20 years at least. He does excellent work at a fair price. Doing so degrades the resale value but I have no intention of selling them so it does not matter.
I have been able to minimize risk by doing the following:
A - do the homework B - listen in a showroom on a setup that approximates your own as best possible C - buy the showroom model. The minus: it’s used, but by salespeople who are supposed to know how to handle it and usually has no more than 50 hrs on it. The plus: it’s 1/2 price, it still comes with the dealer guarantee, and it’s already broken in.
My only bad experience was with a Grado, sold to me by an inexperienced or irresponsible salesperson who claimed he did not know that it was incompatible with my Sumiko MMT arm. The store owner knew, however, and took it back immediately.
i bought my Benz and my Koetsu Black and Koetsu Rosewood Platinum that way. My Koetsu Onyx was a gift. Lucky me as I wouldn’t ever spend even 1/2 price on an Onyx. I try to keep my spending within reason: there are starving children in Eritrea! 🙄
@thepreludeimplicit. You bring up some very good points. Why do you have no true high end shop in a Metro area of 2 million...where you can purchase a high end cartridge? I guess I’m lucky, as in my area with about the same population, I do have one or two shops that are dealers...although they don’t seem to carry any inventory. The 7layer BS salad is certainly prevalent these days, which is why I think it is so very important to listen to gear in consideration in one’s own system before committing to an expensive purchase. Others apparently are only too happy to risk large $$ on either someone else’s recommendation, or just go in totally blind. Not ideal at all imho.
Sitting here right now listening to my AB copy of Aja with a ART9 on a $1500 TT and could not be happier. I live in a Metro area of 2 million people and no true hi end shop where you can even purchase a $3000 cartridge. I gave up and ordered the ART9 from 2juki. It is a wonderful cartridge that is still getting better with each play. Will probably order another or get a Van Den Hull or Fritz Geiger next time. My direct path pre is VERY kind to every table and cartridge it has been hooked up to. Would love to hear the $3-5K carts but at some point common sense takes over in regards to the hassle and the 7 layer BS salad that accompany very high end audio.
I believe that the carbon fiber cantilever is an option, available on some of their product; not all ZYX cartridges use it. The rest will continue to use boron. Based on the SQ imparted by CF in the context of some other audio components I have heard (speakers, tonearms, headshells, cartridge bodies, etc), I will stick with boron. But I doubt that CF cantilevers would be less "durable" than boron, under normal conditions of use.
Looks like the ZYX line has gone into a new cantilever material...Carbon Fibre. That should be an interesting aspect as to whether these cantilevers prove to be durable or not. Although, I would see no reason to suspect that they would be any better or worse than Boron.
@hdm Without doubt, one doesn't know what the results of a re-tip from a after market re-tipper will be until one receives the result and listens to it; but I have a few friends who have gone this route ( with high priced cartridges) and none of them were very pleased with the resulting SQ. One attempted to sell his cartridge with full disclosure, he got a few pennies on the dollar after months on the market. So, the after market re-tipper is not something I would consider.
I certainly wouldn’t be interested in paying the full retail price for any of the uber cartridges as I don’t feel that they would represent good value for me based on my system and having heard a number of them in a system much better than mine.
If you listen to a lot of these cartridges in a very good system, I think it is fair to say that most of them are very good but really offer different types of presentations that appeal to listeners based, in good part, on their subjective listening preferences. And a cartridge that sounds great on one type of recording may not sound so good on another. To a certain extent I think there is always an element of compromise with the use of only one cartridge in a system.
So that is a conclusion that I’ve come to personally; if I had another $20K-$30K invested in my system and substantially more in my house providing a very large dedicated listening room then a $5K+ cartridge might make some sense to me.
As it stands though, if I was to purchase one of these cartridges at a reasonable (to me) discount, I would absolutely have no problem sending it to someone like Peter Ledermann or Andy Kim to have them rework it.
That is in fact, how I’ve been operating for the last 6-7 years, albeit with lesser cartridges, and its worked out pretty well for me. I do think the Accuphase AC2 that I’m currently using is at least competitive into the medium to higher range of cartridges currently out there.
In reality, you would have no idea how your Benz would stand up following work from an aftermarket retipper (at a substantial discount to a new cartridge or a manufacturer rebuild) unless you actually had the work done and made the comparison.
Many people have reported very good results with said aftermarket retips on high end cartridges.
The results of the recent retip of the Zyx Universe by Peter L in the current threads will be interesting to follow.
Chakster, That photo of the cantilever/stylus on your Airy III is quite interesting. Didn’t Nandric indicate that pressure fitting of stylus to cantilever can only be done with an aluminum cantilever? Yet ZYX uses boron, I think. Or am I in error?
This type of Boron cantilever is what Nakatsuka-San is using even on lower priced models, i’m sure high priced models also have same type of cantilever and same type of stylus mounting. This is what i can see on ZYX site on the pictures.
Nandric is right about aluminum, but we don’t know the material of that collar on ZYX cantilever.
Anyway remember Hollow Pipe Boron cantilevers made by Technics and laser etched technology to make a tiny hole in Boron to fit the diamond throght it (it was made in the ’70s by Matsushita). I know that ZYX Boron cantilever is rod, not pipe, but the collar may be a boron pipe or titanium pipe or whatever material (not necessary aluminum, because it’s black) ?
One metal collar (joint pipe) used by Jico to mount a Boron cantilever (Jico SAS stylus for my Technics 205c mk4), Axel did the same with Nagaoka boron cantilevers to rebuild technics 205c mk4, but it’s another story. The stylus is simply glued on Boron cantilever in both cases.
Another collar used by Nakatsuka-San to mount his MicroRidge nude diamond right throught the pipe with minimum glue to reduce the mass.
I have been away from the community for a very long time but I remember this cartridge quest when I was looking to replace my Benz Micro in 05............and yes I was unable to audition anything and my direction was influenced by readings, and audiogone. I ended up purchasing a Shelter 90X based primarily on dealer discussion/recommendation......so at this writing I am starting this quest again and it appears nothing has changed except the prices have risen
I am having a hard time comprehending this...how is that the grey market vendors of high priced cartridges can not only beat retail prices easily, but also have plenty of supply? As an example, with Benz cartridges, there are a few grey market vendors ( one who is on this forum) who have plenty of supply, and yet the US dealers and reps tell us that these cartridges are now unobtanium. What gives?
@hdm I think it fairly obvious that you don’t believe in buying expensive cartridges. Reason I say that is if you did happen to spring for one of these, I seriously doubt you would want it compromised once it needed a retip by any of the non factory retippers. My previous Benz could be retipped by Soundsmith, ( although it doesn’t need a retip yet), but why would I go that route, I would end up with a cartridge that wouldn’t hold up to my old Benz...and therefore imo would be a kludge at best.
Chakster, That photo of the cantilever/stylus on your Airy III is quite interesting. Didn’t Nandric indicate that pressure fitting of stylus to cantilever can only be done with an aluminum cantilever? Yet ZYX uses boron, I think. Or am I in error?
By the way, where does William Thakker fit in this scheme? He sells main line cartridges at low prices, too, from Europe.
@hdm i see you're not an expert in ZYX and this is why you don't care, but you have to see the original cantilever of my ex ZYX Airy III and the way the nude stylus is mounter on it. Tell me if you ever seen any other cantilever like that. The whole diamong goes throught the tiny hole in the hollow pipe cantilever.
Also cartridge body is sealed, so to exchange the cantilever someone has to broke the cartridge body.
I know all OEM cartridges designed by Nakatsuka-San, but his own ZYX is far better than all of them. i totally understand experiments with $500 Monster Cable MC cartridges, but people buyin $3000 or $5000 ZYX not just to play with it for 2000hrs and send it to after-market retippers, but normally to upgrade it to the next ZYX model officially via distributor.
If you think that selling a used ZYX cartridge (or any expensive $3k modern MC cartridge) is easy without big loss, then i think you're wrong. Those carts can sit on ebay forever, especially refurbished ones with completely different cantilevers and broken plastic body.
To make it short: People who're willing to pay premium price for ZYX would love to have support from the distributors, only in this case they could live with this cartridge and upgrade it by sending the old one (with valid serial number) back to the distributor, paying the differens on top to have the next model. We're talking about $5000+ cartridges here. I must say that next model after Airy III was 4D and then Premium 4-D (this one was so much better in my system after Airy III).
Would i send Zyx Premium 4-D to SoundSmith (i think he's the best) or any other ? No way!
It make no sense to buy premium Zyx cartridges to send them for re-tip or rebuild to third-party vendors. I'm sure no one can make a ZYX cartridge better than Nakatsuka-San himself.
It's better to buy another fully original cartridge, maybe from a different brand for more affordable price (this is what i did).
P.S. For the same reason I would not send SoundSmith cartridges for example to Andy Kim pretending he will make them better or equal by adding his cantilever/stylus combo. This is nonsense. I don't want SoundSmith cantilever on ZYX too.
I am quite aware of everything you stated in your last post with the exception of the unique mounting of the stylus on your Zyx.
Unlike you, I’d be quite content to have an aftermarket retipper do the catridge at a significant discount to replacement price from Zyx on trade. It would no longer be a Zyx but if it sounded good, I could care less. And there are many stories out there from those who have had very expensive cartridges retipped by Soundsmith, Andy Kim or other aftermarket rebuilders who have been very happy with them.
I suppose I have to hang my head in shame and live with the fact that my Accuphase AC2 is really no longer an AC2. It is still a Nakatsuka design (like your Zyx) but now sports a Namiki boron cantilever and microridge stylus (I believe most of the Zyx cartridges sport Namiki manufactured cantilever and styli as well) instead of its original sapphire cantilever.
But it sounds very nice and for the $625 U.S. (in total) I have invested in it I’m quite happy. I’d probably be quite content to do the same kind of thing to your Zyx if I could acquire it at the right price but I’d have to get it cheap LOL.
In the end, I doubt you are really out a lot of money based on Juki’s typical discounts on cartridges like that based on what it is worth on a trade in back to Zyx. And you could always recover a few hundred dollars selling it after 1500-2000 hours to someone like me who doesn’t care that it really won’t be a Zyx anymore following an aftermarket retip. ;)
Find information about upgrade program, only if your cartridge is LEGIT (not the one with fake serial number) you can send it back to ZYX to buy next model in the line with nice discount. You need a help of distributor to do that.
$3-5000 ZYX is not a Denon 103 to send it for "upgrade" to many re-tippers. You can only downgrade ZYX if someone will touch it, this cartridge has sealed body and unique Boron cantilever construction, especially the stylus mounting method (i’ve posted pics before in another thread). Each ZYX has tons of unique patents, this is not a conventional cheap cartridge.
Once your ZYX is worn or damaged what would you do? You can not send it back to ZYX if the serial number is fake number. It’s grey market cartridge. You can only destroy it, sell it, or rebuild it (no longer original zyx sound).
Yeah, i know it’s still ok for some dudes to buy on grey market, but not for me, i’m much more happy to buy a demo from official distributor or used legit cartridge from some nice and honest person.
P.S. No i have not tried to return a cartridge, i’ve been using this cartridge, i realize the problem with serial number only when i start thinking about upgrade to the next model for a low cost via official distributor.
Chakster: your position on Juki is well known (almost legendary at this stage from being repeated so much here).
Anyone capable of doing a google search can come up with lots of information on Juki. He's been selling cartridges and other audio related equipment for about 20 years now (possibly longer), has impeccable Ebay feedback and, from what I can see, is not prone to jerking people around or refusing returns. Most of his customers have nothing but positive things to say about him.
The grey market is the grey market. Your suggestion that similar discounts are going to be available through normal channels is not reasonable; that's how the "normal channels", distributors and retailers, make their money.
Your point about Juki's sources though is valid and is the topic of discussion in at least one of the threads about Juki if one wants to spend the time online. And it is very possible that those sources, quite very possibly legitimately purchased through the manufacturer or normal distributor channels, but then, for whatever reason needed to liquidate or unload the product and then altered or destroyed serial numbers to protect themselves and their relationship with the manufacturer or regional distributor.
So it's no surprise that manufacturers and distributors are not big fans of Juki as he's making their life a bit more difficult. From what I can see there is no proof whatsoever of Juki selling used as new or altering serial numbers himself.
It's important that Buyers be aware of the fact that manufacturer's warranty is not going to be available through Juki or other grey sellers and I think that most who purchase from him are aware of this and I would expect that especially someone who is interested in purchasing a $2000-$5000 cartridge from him at an outrageous discount to retail would likely be aware of this.
And I'm sure there would be buyers of these cartridges who could care less about the fact that they cannot have the cartridge rebuilt in the future by the manufacturer at a price that grossly exceeds the cost of going to an aftermarket re-builder/retipper, as sacrilegious as that seems to you and many others. Or they can just toss the cartridge at the end of its life or sell it to a guy like me who, if the price is reasonable enough, will send it to an aftermarket retipper.
For those types of Buyers, Juki is simply filling a need that obviously exists in the marketplace.
I'm curious: did you find out about the serial number on your Zyx before you mounted and used it and approach Juki for a refund/return?
You guys have seen too many James Bond movies. As against Chakster’s experience with 2juki, there are many others who have had good experiences buying from him. (I purchased a used, vintage tonearm from him, not a cartridge, and I was very pleased with the transaction.) The risk for a new cartridge would be that the distributor in your own country would probably not honor the Japan-only warranty. Why should he? I am certainly not questioning Chakster’s veracity here. I’d like to know more.
Well, used items is another story, no problem with them or with vintage stuff he could sell. But the question is why a brand new ZYX products is cheaper from him than from anybody else? Serial number of the very old ZYX appeared on a brand new ZYX cartridges from Juki. My own brand new ZYX Airy III came with fake serial number. I did not tell about the source when i asked to check serial number with US Distributor and Japanese manufacturer.
I’m not sure where 2juki would get a ZYX cartridge with a "fake" serial number, in the first place, unless the implication is that the cartridge is not new or not what it is labeled as.
Serial number most likely replaced by him or his supplier who would like to remain unknown, this how someone trying to get rid of the overstock by selling products to greymarket dealers (to sell them for much lover price than official price, even with discount). This is a real war between manufacturer/distributor and grey market sellers.
What i can say for sure is that a distributor will be happy to make a discount too, maybe not all of them. And to make a good contact with a honest distributor is much better than with a grey market seller (imo).
Building a great cartridge is hard. Building a functioning cartridge is less hard. I'm sure there are counterfeit examples of mega buck carts out there. Not implying anything about any of the vendors mentioned here.
You guys have seen too many James Bond movies. As against Chakster's experience with 2juki, there are many others who have had good experiences buying from him. (I purchased a used, vintage tonearm from him, not a cartridge, and I was very pleased with the transaction.) The risk for a new cartridge would be that the distributor in your own country would probably not honor the Japan-only warranty. Why should he? I am certainly not questioning Chakster's veracity here. I'd like to know more.
I'm not sure where 2juki would get a ZYX cartridge with a "fake" serial number, in the first place, unless the implication is that the cartridge is not new or not what it is labeled as.
Thanks for giving us a heads up about Juki. There are several vendors on eBay and a couple here that are very much grey market. Odd thing is that they seem to have good feedback on ebay, except nothing that relates to cartridge sales! Kron on this site seems to basically have the Benz Micro line sewn up. Have to wonder how these guys get their supplies, when the regular dealers apparently cannot? Question becomes if there are counterfeit cartridges on the market? I do know that the rep fronVan Den Hul told me that there is a vendor in the Netherlands who is taking very old Van Den Huls and retipping them and basically re-freshing them. Selling them as more current models than what they are!
Have bought a couple of relatively inexpensive cartridges and other items from Juki in the past. Wouldn’t hesitate to deal with him and, if I recall correctly, he did take a fairly expensive cartridge back on return/exchange once from someone posting on another forum.
He’s selling grey market cartridges, his ZYX cartridges (for example) have FAKE serial numbers and it was confirmed by distributor and manufacturer for me. Surely ebay buyers are all protected by paypal, but would you buy a cartridge from the seller who replaced original serial number with fake serial numbers ? Some official distributors will be happy to make a discount if the price is the reason. But i would never buy a new cartridge from a cheaters who manipulates with serial numbers.
Simple reason, you have no way of truly knowing how many hours that cartridge has on it. Plus, who knows how the rest of it is performing, suspension issues etc., Consequently , whether it is up to manufacturers specs is anybody’s guess. Therefore, there are many folks, including myself,who aren’t going to risk what you propose; perhaps unlike you, they are not willing to risk damaging expensive vinyl with a once and done play due to the defective stylus. You still don’t believe that these old worn vintage models and the worn out modern cartridge can be a factor in this regard. Remind me to never buy any vinyl from you, lol.
I quickly became a cartridge collector and all my favorite vintage cartridges were purchased NOS (New Old Stock, some of them still sealed). It's not easy to find a NOS cartridge, but first we can try used and if we like it we will wait for a NOS to pay much more for it. This is how it works. We keep on moving, learning the process, searching for the best cartridges, we pay for mistakes, but in the end we got some amazing vintage cartridges in New Old Stock condition.
I definitely don't understand your style of buyin cartridges, except that you're looking for the most expensive ones. Some people strongly believes that each new cartridge must be played for 50-100 hrs to burn-in. Your $10k new cartridge may not be good enough if it was not used for 100 hrs.
@boxer12. You have stated enough, now I am certain of your expertise.
@nrenterI totally understand that once you try a cartridge it is considered used, which is exactly one of the problems that we are discussing. However, I am questioning whether or not there is a solution to the issue presented in my OP. So far, we have had a few potential options/solutions given...maybe re-read some of the thread and see what the thoughts about this are.
What Dave fails to comprehend is that when you try a new cartridge, and decline to purchase said cartridge, the next in line considers it used. Perhaps the phrase “have your cake and eat it, too” should be change to “use a cartridge and keep it new”.
Dave, First off, I wouldn't knowingly sell you anything. ever. Second, You made another big jump from google to bs. Just because my process doesn't fit into your wheelhouse, doesn't mean it's bs. Google images can be your friend here. It is not hard to compare what you see in a microscope to an image of what it is supposed to look like. Third, I don't recall anyone here stating that they bought an old vintage cartridge with thousands of hours on the stylus and being perfectly happy with the results. That would not be prudent & frankly your friend should have seen some type of red flag there. Fourth,
To state that numerous people have complained about buying used cartridges really holds no weight.
People complain about everything. Your post reaffirms this to a "T". That stated, I'm sure if I looked hard enough, I could find numerous people complain about any cartridge bought, new or used.
@boxer12. You are telling us that you know what these diamonds look like when they are worn by looking at Google examples...?? For example, a worn out Micro ridge stylus has what damage to the facet and at what angle? I may sound condescending here, because frankly I am sick of hearing from people who defend their Bs with more Bs. Don’t get me wrong, you may have the necessary experience, I have no way of knowing, but your last point about Google is making me wonder. Sorry, but IF you really have no clue about what a worn out stylus looks like, then I think you might want to state that and not try and defend a position that is BS. Over the years, I have spoken to numerous folks who have told me that their experience with buying used cartridges has led to one disaster after another. Mostly due to worn out styluses and worn out suspensions. Now according to others here, there is no issue with buying an old vintage cartridge with thousands of hours on the stylus and then being perfectly happy with the results...this is exactly what brought my friend into the vintage cartridge fold. Unfortunately, for him, the cost was quite high, maybe for others they don’t care, but like I stated, please make sure I never buy any vinyl from you!
Dave, "
Please do tell us what a worn Shibata stylus looks like, or a worn micro ridge, or worn line contact, or even a worn out elliptical. I’m not saying you don’t know what they look like when they are worn, as I am certainly hoping you can share that information with me...and the other members"
Maybe it's just the "do" in your questions (I suspect it's more) but you come off as pretty condescending Dave. To know what those cuts look like, one can use google. All the information is there & that is what I do. Again, if it looks questionable, I replace it. I can tell you in all honesty that I haven't trashed any vinyl following the process stated in my previous post.
Ok my turn, lol...boxer12 Please do tell us what a worn Shibata stylus looks like, or a worn micro ridge, or worn line contact, or even a worn out elliptical. I’m not saying you don’t know what they look like when they are worn, as I am certainly hoping you can share that information with me...and the other members. However, I am saying that most people have absolutely no clue. Including dealers and other ‘professionals’, who are only too happy to guess at it! Now here’s the other problem with many high end MC cartridges, IME, replacing the stylus with a Soundsmith,or other non factory replacement, results in a cartridge that is usually a fraction of what it used to be when factory fresh. Whether this issue applies to vintage SPUs etc., which presumably can be rebuilt by the factory, I have no idea, but I’m not willing to go through the hassles of finding out.YMMV.
Well that was fast Dave. You're insinuating nobody knows what to look for, fair enough (I guess). I have access to very high powered microscopes and stay on the safe side... If it is even questionable, it gets a new stylus. If it doesn't get a new stylus, I set it up exactly as it should be & take special note of how the suspension is when setting it in the first groove. Again, if it looks questionable, the stylus gets replaced. This doesn't have to be rocket science.
@boxer12. Ok, so maybe you can answer me this....how do you know that the stylus on the old cartridge with unknown amounts of usage, is not worn out?( to the point of doing damage on the first play). Taking the cartridge to a ‘professional’ has not been productive,IME. I don’t think there are too many people who actually know what the correct shape and faceting of the diamond is supposed to look like. Plenty of folks are willing to guess at it though. Please do tell us exactly what you are looking at when you ‘inspect’ the used cartridge.
Come on Dave, there is a lot of distance between those vintage cartridges that harm vinyl & those that don't. If one is not inspecting or replacing the stylus of a vintage cartridge (like your friend apparently), & setting them up properly, they deserve damaged vinyl. It's never happen to me & I actually enjoy buying, inspecting, & setting those old disasters up. You make the entire cartridge buying process sound like a root canal.
@chakster You are still not understanding this point...many people, including myself are not going to purchase a used cartridge..
Simple reason, you have no way of truly knowing how many hours that cartridge has on it. Plus, who knows how the rest of it is performing, suspension issues etc., Consequently , whether it is up to manufacturers specs is anybody’s guess. Therefore, there are many folks, including myself,who aren’t going to risk what you propose; perhaps unlike you, they are not willing to risk damaging expensive vinyl with a once and done play due to the defective stylus. You still don’t believe that these old worn vintage models and the worn out modern cartridge can be a factor in this regard. Remind me to never buy any vinyl from you, lol.
Anyone can do this: Simply buy used cartridge for affordable price (which is easy to re-sell with no loss at all), if you really like it then buy the same cartridge, but a brand new (sealed in the box) from authorized dealer for higher price with warranty if you want (maybe even with discount from a good dealer). You can only play with a cartridge for 2000 hrs maximum if the stylus is MicroRidge (or related), and only 500 hrs if the stylus is elliptical. Then your $10k cartridge must be re-tipped, but they don’t want you to re-tip it, they want you to buy anothey brand new cartridge for 60% of what you paid for a previous brand new cart. Each 2000 hrs of playtime you will have to pay again. Only a few manufacturers offer affordable re-tip or factory rebuild. Once you paid $10k most of the manufacturers would like to get another $6k from you when the stylus is worn. Or even more if you want to "upgrade" to the next overpriced model. This is crazy!
$10k for a cartridge is a waste of money anyway. You are trying to get demo of $10k cartridge to buy it, but what’s then? Another $6k to use it longer than 2000 hrs ? It’s a waste of money anyway, no matter how your cartridge was bought (with demo or without demo). It’s absolutely insane to pay $10k and then another $6k just to use a cartridge for a long time.
For the same price i can buy 16 amazing top of the line vintage cartridges and it would be much better investment because this is an experience with 16 different cartridges on different tonearms etc. This experience will bring me some killer cartridges for sure. And i don't care about dealers and stuff.
Your problem exist for very few people, who would like to buy the most expensive cartridges for some reason whithout even knowing why do they need them (because they never even tried them).
When do you think yours post will change everything in dealerships and customers care etc ?
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