When is digital going to get the soul of music?

I'm trying to understand how one gets off on digital.

This sounds to me like a question of fetishism rather than one of audio. You might have better results by asking a therapy professional.

In other words, analog does it for me, and digital doesn't. My question is why?

I understand your question, and I'm suggesting to you that you won't find the answer in any responses in this thread, because it has to do with your personal perception of the listening experience. Audiophiles are not professionally trained to help individuals understand themselves.

The good analog setups separate the clicks and pops from the music.

I don't understand this statement. If one hears clicks and pops, then one hears clicks and pops as part of the musical reproduction. Are you suggesting that some analog set-ups magically make the clicks and pops sound separate from the music?

In a concert hall, the sounds of coughing and gum popping are separate from the music, too, but they are still annoying.

I have listened to my daughter's(does that date me somewhat?) car stereo. She played Elton John's Greatest Hits. Listening to songs that I am familiar with, it hit all the right notes, had great separation, and maybe added some details that I hadn't noticed before. My friend did the same, in his car, with Neil Young's Greatest Hits(or equivalent). You see, in analogue, that would indicate that those cd's were superior. The problem is playing those records at home(in analog)would kill those cd's. What gives?

This clearly indicates to me you prefer the lower resolution and limited extension of vinyl, since the CD playback in a car stereo is lower resolution than in a high end CD front end. In addition, the music is probably compressed via the car stereo system, with the highs rolled off and the mid-bass boosted.

You have not heard a good digital front end. This is obvious. There is not one person who will satisfactorily answer your question. You will have to hear it for yourself through trial and error, along with some guidance available in dozens of Audiogon threads. Do a search for "Best CD player under $xxxx", and go from there.

Futhermore, and I say this with utmost sincerity, you appear to be a perfect candidate for Dakiom Feedback Stabilizers. These are available for sale in the Audiogon listings. In my experience, they make things sound "more analog" by limiting the HF extension of digital playback. At least that's how they sounded in my system, but I can see how they might make digital sound more like vinyl to some listeners. Personal preference is everything where Dakioms are concerned.

Good luck.

I once cried in my kitchen at the sight of a lovely Dover Sole, which had been cooked with the aid of a digital timer.

Mmakshak, you might need (perhaps require) a twelve step program (a self help structured system), to wean you (reduce your usage of) the parenthesis. Your posts (comments) would be much easier (simpler) to read without them (the paranthetical comments).

Tvad, heck, no one understands me anyhow(Do you think it would help if I used less parentheses?).

I don't get the impression people don't understand you, but writing with fewer parenthetical comments would make your posts easier to read, IMO.

Mmakshak, you've already completed Step 1...recognizing the problem.

Post on, audio friend.

"Art is freedom from the truth".

I believe that was Art Dudley in Stereophile. Jax2 referrred to it within the last month.

First, I heard a cd by Connie Dover,"Last Night by the River" at Ori's, of Oritek Audio, house that was listenable to me.

I guess this would explain the 15+ posts you've made proclaiming the Oritek X-2 as the best interconnect made.

Thanks for clearing this up.

I know that Audiogon is about high-end, but I'm wondering if there is anything that can be done about car stereo's cd players. This is mainly where I hear the hardness that I speak of.

All this time, when you've been complaining about the lack of soul in digital reproduction due to the hardness in the sound quality, you've been primarily referring to CD reproduction in car audio?

Considering this statement, IMO you've been wasting the time of the Audiogon membership with this nonsense thread.

And, repeatedly proclaiming a product that is fabricated by a friend to be superior to all others is the absolute definition of shilling. Shilling is generally discouraged in Audoigon threads.

Mmakshak, you an apology to the general membership for not disclosing your personal relationship with the owner of Oritek in your many, many recommendations of Oritek X-2 wire.

I realize you may truly love the Oritek X-2 interconnects, but your relationship with the manufacturer could influence your opinion, could it not? Of course it could.

Let me disclose my personal relationship with Ori of Oritek Audio. I went to his house to purchase a pair of X-1's. I spent 3 hours listening to his system while waiting out rush hour. I then emailed him a bit, mostly criticizing his X-1's in my system. This turned out to be interaction problems with my Signal Cable Silver Resolution interconnects. He emailed me, saying if you want your PRAT, my X-2's have it. I went to buy them, and spent about 2 hours listening to his system while having my Nuforce's updated. I've emailed him since, raving about their sound. Is that a personal relationship?

That's exactly the kind of information that gives perspective to a one sentence recommendation. Thank you.

01-18-06: Serus
Tvad: "Mmakshak" is a paying customer. I often invite local customers over to listen and compare their cables to mine. I appreciate a word of mouth, but I don't ask anybody to post anything. In this particular case, to post a lot...
If you ever get to know Mmakshak, you are surely to find that he is a very enthusiastic person... At this point, I think he has said just about all he can or should say about his relationship with Oritek Audio: a local paying customer.
If you are local, drop me a line too and come over to listen for yourself. You don't have to buy anything, but you do have to bring an interesting set of cables, or an amp maybe... That is my "fee"...

Hey, thanks for the invitation! Are we to assume you are Ori Mizrahi-Shalom, owner of Oritek?

I appreciate his enthusiasm for your products. As I mentioned previously, one's relationship with a manufacturer of a product that is being promoted by the author of the post, without any further description or comparison, is germain to the recommendation. I'm sure you would agree on this point.

I look forward to hearing your product one day.

01-19-06: Mmakshak
I want to defend Tvad here.

Thanks, Mmakshak.

First, he posts a lot.

Way too much. :)

Second, I believe that he gets more out of posts on audiogon than almost anyone. That is why, I believe, that he is insistent on people posting properly.

Actually, it's generally accepted practice to divulge one's affiliation with a manufacturer when posting a recommendation/review as it offers the reader some insight into potential bias that could influence a buying decision. Simple as that.

I wish someone on the Audiogon staff would explain why the editing feature appears on some threads and not on others. Damn, it's frustrating.

I wrote:

Actually, it's generally accepted practice to divulge one's affiliation with a manufacturer...

I wanted to edit this statement. I realize Mmakshak's just an Oritek customer, albeit one who personally knows and has visited the owner. I wanted to be clear on my meaning of "affiliation" as it applies in this instance.

It turns out that Aplhifi lives less than one mile from me, and I will be bringing over the Oritek X-1's and X-2's for an audition on Saturday.

Now THAT could be interesting for you both!

Jlambrick. Digital is clearly inferior at this point.

Anyone who doesn't see that has never actually had a well set up TT, or is burrying their head in the sand.

But of course it's all subjective for those that want it to be.
Robm321 (Threads | Answers)

Robm321, I've always enjoyed your posts with an open mind, but this one really smacks of Analog Elitism and an unwillingness to accept that some folks have preferences other than yours, and they might actually own gear that is not inferior, but simply different from a well set up TT rig.

Serus, thanks for the explanation of your moniker. That's clever. One day, you must connect with APL for a listening session.

C5150, may I buy another round?

:)

01-21-06: Mmakshak
I just got back from Alphifi's...He may be selling these interconnects. They deserve to be heard. They definitely gave me pause for thought.

...back in the day, the Linn way of PRAT helped me know what to look for. Today with digital, PRAT is almost a given, but I think it helps to have some way of evaluating what is better.

But, what about the soul of the music?

I only heard one song comparing Oritek X-2's and Aplhifi's interconnects. I know you've heard this before, but I need more time to compare.

That's understandable and reasonable, and somehow the fact you had only one song for a demo doesn't surprise me.

Thanks for providing some feedback on your session with Aplhifi.

Kumbaya, Robm321. Kumbaya.

:)

If I listen to your set up, it will most likely shift my paradigm. Then when I go back to my system, it won't sound as good. So, I'm afraid to come by ;).

Nothing is as consistent in this hobby as an audiophile's preference for his/her own system regardless of an appreciation of other's rigs. :)

I'm in Southern California.

Ironically, my system has undergone a paradigm shift as I move toward a more musical and less accurate presentation.

Interesting, Jack, that you consider the SA-14 less musical than the Sony. I owned a SA-14 in stock form, and I felt it was perhaps the most musical, least accurate player I had heard (among Modwright Sony 999ES, Underwood HiFi Shanling T200, Electrocompaniet EMC 1-UP). Your statement helps me understand the TRL effect on that particular player. No TRL dig intended.

Stock, the SA-14 is thin and hard sounding, with a sucked out mid-range and without much frequency extension in the bottom end. (To my ears, in my system) Not overly dynamic, either.

Wow. That's not at all what I recall aboout the stock SA-14, which I found warm and full-bodied, but lacking in detail and extension.

I wonder if musicality blended with accuracy is a trademark of Sony DVD players in general, since I have noticed the same qualities in Modwright Sony 999ES and Sony 9000ES players.

My vote for the most soulfull, emotionally involving player goes to the TRL/Sony 900.

Jack, fully respecting your opinion regarding the TRL offerings, I'd like to request some insight into other digital sources you've owned to provide some context for your comments.

Would you please list the other digital sources you've owned.

I'll start. I have owned:
Parts Connexion Shanling T200
Modwright Sony 999ES (early version without dedicated power supply)
Electrocompaniet EMC 1-UP SE (stock and Empirical Audio modified)
Marantz SA-14 (stock)
APL Philips SACD1000
Exemplar Denon 2900 with Siltech wire upgrade
APL Denon 3910

The DVD-A releases from Classic Records are stunning.

Classic Records makes their 28/192 DVD-A discs from original analog master tapes, and the results are really quite amazing.

I used to have a Clapton album in which the guitar always finished a second or so after the rest of the band...no matter what the track.

Then, I sobered up.

The Beck album tensed my upper left side of my body.
Mmakshak (Threads | Answers)

No kidding?

I have a CD that makes me tense in the lower midsection. This hobby so crazy.

The failure of SACD and DVD-A to produce significant profits for the record companies and component manufacturers suggests that there will be little, if any, future emphasis placed on mass release of high resolution audio software that faithfully preserves the digital master.

Music buyers voted down high resolution audio with their failure to buy enough SACD or DVD-A discs to encourage the record companies to continue with the business model.

MP3 downloads are far too commercially successful to encourage record companies and hardware manufacturers to further investigate high resolution alternatives. The vast majority of the music buying public simply doesn't care.

Too bad for audiophiles, but we are a quirky, micro-market in the music business with too few dollars to drive high resolution format development.

Will digital get to the soul of music? Given the present reality, I would say no.

Funny thing is, in the 70s and 80s, when I owned Kenwood, JBL, JVC and Pioneer electronics, I loved listening to music and I never analyzed it. I just played it. Soul? Yeah, I would say it had plenty of soul, whether it was digital OR analog (BTW...back in those days I never set-up a cartridge with a protractor, and my record cleaning amounted to a spin with a wet Disc Doctor brush).

Ah, the old days...

Mapman, whether delivered as digital downloads or on silver discs, it's my opinion that the mass market of music buyers do not care about the added fidelity of high resolution audio. Second, these buyers care more about how many songs they can fit on their portable music players, and this means low resolution formats will be chosen over high resolution files. These are the buyers that drive the music business.

So, yes, we disagree on this topic. It's unlikely you will persuade me to your point of view, and it's unlikely I will persuaded you to mine.

When I see new, mainstream music available as high resolution downloads on iTunes, then I will be convinced that high resolution audio is recognized by music companies as a viable, profit generating product.

It seems to me, there are cogent points made in this thread which are somehow missed by later contributors. The result is a pattern of one step forward, two steps back whereby the discussion reverts back on itself over and over again.

Mmakshak, I encourage you to read Alberporter's posts above as he addresses your question in a very clear, succinct manner.

I'll be waiting for the day when high resolution audio with the quality of digital masters is released on a wide scale and with a catalog as complete as the low resolution catalog, and when the day comes I'll be the first to write that I was wrong.

FWIW, I don't prefer one format over another. My preferences are completely related to the quality of the recording, and of the performance.

As far as digital getting to the soul of the music, I don't think either digital or vinyl gets to the soul of music.

And you can put lipstick on a pig, but it will still be a pig.

The irony of HDTV is that much of the programming content is "dumbed" down or softened for HDTV. All filmed programs/movies are already "softened" simply as a result of being shot on film: film being analogous to music recorded on analog equipment.

Most original programming that's shot in high definition is processed to make it look less sharp.

Too bad digitally recorded music isn't processed to make it sound less harsh like it's video cousin.

I wish I could delete my post. I didn't want to contribute to this circular argument.

Oh boy...a metaphorical hamster wheel for audiophiles...

Whee-hee!!

Mapman, make-up has changed, but more importantly digital filtering has changed more.

There is a great deal of time and money spent in Hollywood post production houses to soften the look of HDTV program content.

It's ironic. A crystal clear delivery method with purposely deteriorated images.

Muralman1 vs. Aplhifi.

Intractable vs. Intractable.

Time to pop some popcorn. This ought to be fun.

Depending on the point of view, the answer seems to be:

1) Now
2) Never
3) It's getting there