Who thinks $5K speaker cable really better than generic 14AWG cable?

Word for the day: snarkolepsy

Definition: sleepwalking but still capable of being snarky

😴

Yea!! Listening rather than obsessing on denial of fact.

dynaquest4 said:
" Hifiman: read this entire thread, my previous posts and Roger Russell’s article and you will find your question to me superfluous."

Yea, like this thread and the decades old info contained in it, is worth the time. Seven pages and 300+ posts, I'd rather spend the time listening to my expensive speaker cables.... ;-)

sautan904, I will not waste my time with all of the nonsense in posts here, but there is absolutely no question that the High Fidelity 'Pro' cables surpass all other cables, especially if HFCables are used with them on a decent system. Unfortunately, the 'Pro' are $35k for a 1 m pair!!!!

Yes there are cheaper ones at $1000 that I have no heard, but I have heard all the series in between. 

There is some truth to what you say, however. There are some expensive speaker wires that look great but aren't and some cheap cables that are better than others.

Hifiman: read this entire thread, my previous posts and Roger Russell’s article and you will find your question to me superfluous.

@dynaquest
Have you ever done a listening comparison to divergent types of wires in a highly resolving audio system?  In my 40+ years as an audiophile I can honestly say I have, including in blind tests when I had no idea what cable I was listening to and it really isn't that hard to hear a difference.  The only relevant question is... what sound do you prefer??

Funny stuff.

Thanks for that link, frame11…I had not seen Roger Russell’s “History of Speaker Wire” before. I didn’t need convincing but I found his closing comments revealing. He says:

“When confronted with the truth, believers do not want to hear about it. They want to remain in the magical world of fantasy where they think they can hear improvements in their wire, often arrived at by making listening tests without adequate controls or understanding of the problems involved including speaker impedance and amplifier stability. One of the prime tools in creating such a faith for the average consumer is by capitalizing on fear and ignorance as in many other things that aren’t readily apparent. There is fear that the wire currently in use is not good enough. There is ignorance because most people do not have scientific knowledge in this area and lack adequate measuring equipment to prove otherwise.”

Since those touting the increase in SQ with “expensive” cables, can, without any scientific proof, only fall back on….well…"I could hear the difference."  Hmmm….the sense of hearing proves their case? Russell takes this “sense” and flips it to a sense of sight analogy…seeing, arguably a more reliable, testable and provable sense and continues with this…which, for some reason, I find quite refreshing:

“We have been told by advertising that the exotic speaker wires offer fabulous advantages over ordinary lamp cord. It would seem reasonable that using this same wire for lamps would also enhance their performance. In the same vein as wire literature, you can have your lamp reproduce light with the full spectrum color fidelity of natural daylight, finally allowing you see light the way it should be seen and bring out the natural performance of your lamp. It could offer greater warmth, detail, brilliance, definition and speed by providing wider bandwidth and reduced skin effect. It can provide a distortion free illumination that reduces eye strain, resulting in clearer vision and optimal color perception. It can allow you to work for longer periods of time with less visual distraction or fatigue. Just imagine what it might do for your electric razor or microwave, etc.!”

Bravo, Russell!!

mapman
GK I am high end compared to you for sure.

I’ve spent tens of thousands on hifi gear.

How much does your Sony Walkman cost again?

You have a lot of nerve I must say trolling others here about high end. Its a good comedy routine at least.

My goodness, Moops, your strange outburst aside, it appears we have totally different ideas what the High End is. You obviously think your money buys your way into it. Whereas my High End cannot be bought.

A rich audiophile has about as much chance of getting into Audio Nirvana as a camel has of passing through the eye of a needle. - audiophile axiom

GK I am high end compared to you for sure.

I’ve spent tens of thousands on hifi gear.

How much does your Sony Walkman cost again?

You have a lot of nerve I must say trolling others here about high end. Its a good comedy routine at least.

Great article on speaker wire. http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm

mapman
Its abandoning some high end costs, not necessarily high end sound.

shiver me timbers, moops. I did not realize you were in the high end. You really should tell a person these things. Welcome aboard, sailor. It’s getting harder and harder to recognize fellow travelers. Maybe we should wear name tags.

wire or cable effects will be LESS significant in interconnects than speaker wires

anyone who understands physics or even rel. basic electronics will figure this out - the freq.s involved are simply too high to hear

the only other possibility is that a very high (usually RF) freq. will be injected into a component - if that affects the sound then the component would have to have a very odd design; most likely a design by someone who is not very competent

The controversy arises mainly by greedy charlatans (one of whom trolls this forum) who are able to convince well-off but unsophisticated consumers to buy their over-priced cables.  There is also the confusion among electrostatic speaker owners who do hear differences from different speaker cables, and electrodynamic speaker owners who are likely not hearing differences, but do not do blind testing.

In general, run digital as far as you can; run interconnects in fully balanced mode to the amps, and keep speaker cables as short as possible (amps close to speakers).  Use good quality Cu wire of at least 14 gauge (almost everything  is "oxygen free) anyway, so that is not a worry).  Belden has been making quality wires of all types for a very long time.  China is known for food, martial arts, culture, and philosophy -- not (yet?) for quality consumer products...

The big SQ increases come from good speakers, room treatments, and quality masterings of source materials.  After that, select an amp that can really control your speakers and their impedance curve.  Pre-amps, DACs, etc. will prove to be less rewarding on a cost/benefit curve (tho I do like my ARC pre-amp).

If you have already spent $70,000 on your speakers, built a new listening room, and done everything above, then it is time to buy different speaker cables from a place that allows returns.  Evaluate on a selected subset of your music library for esp. difficult issues where the recording & mastering is known to the be of the highest quality using double-blind testing.  Once your speaker cabling is as you desire, you can then waste time on interconnects.

if the above is too much trouble then just buy a green pen and use it to treat the edges of your eyelids.

pops these is a report this button at lower right of each post that can be used to report improper postings.   I don't think political content is necessarily prohibited but anyone can flag any post they think should be reported.

Moderators please remove all political comments to keep them out or at least fair and balanced.  You missed one.......

Its abandoning some high end costs, not necessarily high end sound.

Try not to tremble at the thought GK. I’m sure your products would still hold value.

Don’t worry. Nobody is going to take away your beloved Sony Walkman!  Were high end sound to be abandoned, your sales of those could actually skyrocket!

mapman
"I still have many older monster wires around and I even use them when needed. Guess what? They sound perfectly fine these days. Of course the systems I use them in these days are miles ahead of what I had back when I originally bought them. Goes to show that whatever the upside to certain more esoteric wires may or may not be, the downside is limited when everything else is performing well already.

Notice I did not say they sound the same or as good as others I use. I know some to sound different in spot a/b tests I have done from time to time. All I am saying is the the wires in of themselves do no harm. So I can choose to tweak wires or most anything else as needed and get quality results. Exact flavors of sound that results may vary.

Thing is it is easy and can be relatively inexpensive to tweak with wires. Its the same mindset that drives fuse tweakers I think (I am not one of those).

If a tweak is needed or desired and it does not cost much and I can change it easily and see what happens I will. HEck I even tried out a $100 fuse that someone here offered up to try for free. It was an easy thing to change and try so I did.

The interesting thing is some of our gear and systems cost a lot of money which means the price of "relatively inexpensive" goes up as well. Makes for a nice environment to sell things that are probably overpriced but still relatively affordable on the grand scale of things. Someone with a 6 digit system to start is not likely to balk at a 4 digit wire. More likely to balk at a less expensive wire not being up to par with the rest.

Its like if decorating a large expensive room in a mansion, One is probably not going to cheap up on the paint or other basic materials used that may or may not make much if any real difference in appearance in the end.

Luxury items are just that. Things that look nice and make us feel good about owning but may or may not actually be more functional in the end.

Just realize that expensive wires are luxury items and then we can all not loose any sleep about it."

I have yet to see anyone construct a better or more articulate argument for abandoning high end and returning to Mid Fi.

I still have many older monster wires around and I even use them when needed. Guess what? They sound perfectly fine these days. Of course the systems I use them in these days are miles ahead of what I had back when I originally bought them. Goes to show that whatever the upside to certain more esoteric wires may or may not be, the downside is limited when everything else is performing well already.

Notice I did not say they sound the same or as good as others I use. I know some to sound different in spot a/b tests I have done from time to time. All I am saying is the the wires in of themselves do no harm. So I can choose to tweak wires or most anything else as needed and get quality results. Exact flavors of sound that results may vary.

Thing is it is easy and can be relatively inexpensive to tweak with wires. Its the same mindset that drives fuse tweakers I think (I am not one of those).

If a tweak is needed or desired and it does not cost much and I can change it easily and see what happens I will. HEck I even tried out a $100 fuse that someone here offered up to try for free. It was an easy thing to change and try so I did.

The interesting thing is some of our gear and systems cost a lot of money which means the price of "relatively inexpensive" goes up as well. Makes for a nice environment to sell things that are probably overpriced but still relatively affordable on the grand scale of things. Someone with a 6 digit system to start is not likely to balk at a 4 digit wire. More likely to balk at a less expensive wire not being up to par with the rest.

Its like if decorating a large expensive room in a mansion, One is probably not going to cheap up on the paint or other basic materials used that may or may not make much if any real difference in the end.

Luxury items are just that. Things that are less common, of good build quality, that look nice, and make us feel good about owning but may or may not actually be more functional in the end.

Just realize that expensive wires are luxury items for the audio elite and then we can all not loose any sleep about it .

Mods, how about doing us a favor and getting rid of this obnoxious troll and stalker. Once you let them get a foothold in your house it's very difficult to get rid of them.

jperry:

I started out with Lafayette and Garard when in high school in...you guessed it...my parent's basement.

I graduated to Dynaco and Warfdale in college. I then made other upgrades up to what I have today, which has been fairly stable for 20 years, the only new addition being the Onyx that I got as sort of a gift. No, I did not and would not pay $10K for it: I come from the David Hafler school of audio: you shouldn't have to mortgage your home for good sound.

jperry,

No problem.

I left out

RECORD CLEANER: VPI HW 16

"... $5K cables not $25 cables..."

Makes absolutely no difference in my view, $25 is nuts also. I recall paying much more than that, but it was 3 decades ago.

"...I had dinner with the Monster Cable dude...."

So what? I got my Koetsu Onyx from one of Neil Young’s engineers, but it’s not relevant to the discussion so I did not mention it. What’s relevant is what the Monster founder said about his own product, not that you had dinner with him.

Looks like someone has had some of his posts removed.

unreceivedogma , thanks for posting your system. Appreciate it.

Well I love this site and have been very active selling, buying, and posting. I like reading geoffkait's comments as I find him both humorous and well educated on many matters important to this site. 

He certainly does not need my backing, but it is in all of our best interests to hear a wide variety of opinion and knowledge. His humor is just nice icing on the tolerance cake.  

Maplegrovemusic
This reminds me of the need to enable the block function of posters . Kaitts posts are growing old . Same old same old . We know how you stand on everything related to audio Geoff . No need to remind us daily . Now how do i actually enable that block function ?

Noone is under any obligation to read my posts or anyone's posts. If you don't want to read my posts don't read them. Fair enough?

This reminds me of the need to enable the block function of posters . Kaitts posts are growing old . Same old same old . We know how you stand on everything related to audio Geoff . No need to remind us daily . Now how do i actually enable that block function ?

geoffkait, you have 4,719 posts here. I have 16. Seems to me that's the pot calling the kettle black.

I work for a living and spend almost no time here for a reason. I saw this thread and made a contribution base on 40 years of audio experience. Maybe some people here value that experience. you obviously don't.

Unreceivedogmeat, you won't last long here. You can't shut up.

have a nice day

I rest my case. 

Unreceivedodmeat
13 posts
01-08-2017 1:13pm
Geoffkait Your defensiveness is also up there with His TriumPhness. That’s rarified company.

Oh, I get it, now. You’re one of those sore losers. 😢

Geoffkait Your defensiveness is also up there with His TriumPhness. That's rarified company. 

Geoffkait, You have the need to insult everyone here who doesn't agree with you. I'm serious: you are emotionally damaged and should get help. It's no way to live. 

Coda to DOG: C) ever wonder what the 12K over the 8K (4K at my age) that you can't hear is for? Not to make the system sound better, but to drive your dog nuts. 

"You are too emotionally involved in defending expensive cable. Either you are a cable rep, or you need some therapeutic assistance."

I'm not defending expensive cables. Try taking a reading comprehension course sometime. You appear to be in over your head.

Geoffkait: you are waaaaay too emotionally involved in defending expensive cable.  Either you are a cable rep, or you need some therapeutic assistance. 

JPerry: the system is as follows:

CARTRIDGES: Koetsu Onyx; Koetsu Redwood Sugnature; Benz Micro; Grado (for my 78s)

ARM: Sumiko MMT

TURNTABLE: VPI HW MK IV with SAM

PREAMP: Beard P505, rebuilt by Jon Specter (formerly of NY Audio Labs, a blues guitarist and cousin of Al Cooper of BS&T and Highway 61 fame) with Jensen foil caps and phono stage adjusted for MC cartridges. 

AMPS: NY Audiolab version of the Julius Futterman output-transformer-less Monoblocks, the OTL3. Jon Specter converted them from pentode to triode, replaced all the caps with Jensen foils. 

CROSSOVERS: Mastering Lab, caps replaced with Jensens. 

SPEAKERS: Altec Lansing 694Cs, with accordion surround, cone, spider, voice coil and dome (in other words, all moving parts) all very recently replaced by Gabriel Sound with manufacturer specified parts provided by Great Plains Audio. 

Also:

CD PLAYER: Rega Planet

TUNER: Kenwood KT8300

RUGS: Moroccan, on the wood floor, to keep sound from splashing. The rugs are way more important than...

CABLES: standard, no name cables between table/preamp/amps, Monster to the speakers but Geoffkait is inspiring me to get off my butt, run down to the local hardware store, buy some lamp wire and stick it in there for Ss&Ks, just to annoy him. 

DOG: a Spitz named Mitsy. She's an audiophile too. A) She better be if she wants her food. B) she knows where the sweet spot is. Good Mitsy! Here's your treat! C) she howls when I play the overture to The Who's Tommy, and some other records too, but that one especially. Adds to the mood somehow.  John Specter says that's because she hears things captured by the recording that the recording engineers couldn't hear - and that you or I can't hear - and that my system is able to reveal. 

I had dinner with the Monster Cable dude, him and John Curl and Bob Crump way back when. Please note this thread is about $5K cables not $25 cables. Hel-loo! I actually made the mistake of buying Monster Cable when it first came out. The thick twisted multi-stranded copper wire in the clear see-thru jacket. The cable wars have been off and running ever since Monster and Polk Audio and Fulton cables first came out. When was that? Gotta be at least 30 years ago, maybe 35. And it appears the cable wars are still going on.

That was supposed to be addressed to geoffkait. Spellcheck strik s again.  

Geoff Jair, I hate to burst your bubble, but if I had the time I could hunt down the exact quote. That is exactly what he said. 

When Monster cable came out, it was decidedly not cheap. I know: I'm old enough to remember when it came out, I bought it and compared to the lamp cord I was using, it was way more expensive. 

At the time, I did not hear significant improvement in the sound and decided that it might be because I have to continue to upgrade other parts of the system. 

I made a mistake earlier: the wires that go from the terminals to the diaphragm on the Altecs are thin, inexpensive wires. 

Nah, Taters has much better gear than randy has.

Did Taters get reincarnated as Randy?

I need to read the DNM site again and see if what they say there sounds kosher or not.   I swear no other large form ICs sound coherent in comparison for some reason. 

Randy do you think it could be more significant in interconnects than speaker wires and maybe be heard there?  

yeh, not much profit on 16 ga. speaker wire

the analogy to light in the sky is way off base

aspects of wire construction beyond the fundamental electronic properties that affects how waves of varying frequency propagate exist but only affect RF frequencies

electrostatic speakers present complex impedance loads and the sound will change based on capacitance and inductance in the wires - that doesn't mean the sound is better

this does not apply to Maggies or to most electrodynamic speakers

I won't say that speaker cabling is the most injurious and fraudulent audiophile product however.  That 'crown' is shared among interconnects and various tweaks.

Hey look I may not be a pin boy, but I do think that there are certain aspects of wire construction beyond the fundamental electronic properties that affects how waves of varying frequency propagate along it much like the atmasphere affects propogation of light so that it is not always seen as white, ie as blue skies, rainbows etc.

Anecdotally, I even think I can hear differences between say minimalist DNM ICs (single solid conductor core) I use (and tend to like best) and other wires of much different form factor and construction. They have a coherent sound I do not find in large overbuilt wires.

DNM proves to me though that its a simple problem to address and does not require fancy overbuilt wires that may add some unique or exotic flavor to the sound but is not required and may even cause further harm in some cases.

Don’t you love a good anecdote?

Regarding speaker wires specifically, I tend to not care much other than I follow old school dogma that says longer runs need to be lower gauge (larger diameter).   Back when I actually sold gear I never recommended 16 gauge speaker wire to anyone.

Ouch! Very ouch!

That's OK.  I've lost count by now.

Huh? You mean you’re not a pinboy? Whoops, my bad.