Just curious given the talk of laptop vs pc vs mac vs mac mini, has anyone tried running osx on pc platform, I.e a hackintosh.
Are sound differences dependant on HW implementatios or OS sound pipelines?
I've got a really nice silent i3-2100t win7 setup that I am thinking of making dual boot osx/win7. |
I have had differences. The music was just more clear with the better cable. But I used a cheap cable and then switched to a kimber, never really tried anything else. A good belkin or any cable with adequate gauge and good connectors should be fine. That is just what I think. I wouldn't think silver, copper etc would matter as long as it has good connectors and no packet loss. |
I'm still very skeptical about getting a high dollar USB cable and the audible improvement it can make. I was looking at the Virtue Audio Nirvana USB cable or the Pangea USB-PC cable. I can't go over $50 to pay for USB cable even though the Pangea USB-AG USB cable looks like a lot of bang for the buck as well. Anyone try these cables or are thinking about getting them? |
Thanks for going the extra little bit to help our economy (or your ecomony, they all need help). That's all you did unless you forgot to mention it was a blind test and you picked the correct cable 19 or 20 times out of 20 attempts to make it statistically valid. Sighted tests don't mean diddly. Do a little research on how what your brain can and can't do with audio frequencies, especially after a second or so of hearing something. |
which 150 dollar usb cable is that? Pls share. |
I tried a us30 cable and a us150 USB cable. Sad to say, the difference is very very noticeable. The more pricey cable is fuller, more 3 dimensional and just more flesh out midrange.
I bought the us150 cable and couldn't go back. |
@Docks, I'm gonna quote Judge Belvin Perry (Casey Anthony trial) regarding your 6-14-11 post:
"What we don't know is a wide universe of things we don't know."
If you don't have the experience (aka experiential knowledge), Docks, why post a comment other than to exercise your keyboard and typing digits ("digital is digital")?
Get the audio experience of trying several HQ USB cables on a HQ system, and get back to us, & don't forget...
:) listening,
Ed |
Digital is digital. 1's are 1's and 0's are 0's.
It will work or it wont, if there is a poor connection you will hear it. Don't be an AudioPhool. |
I had a chance to listen for quite some time to a dealers setup (he used me as a guinea pig) while switching between a cheapo, decent computer(gold plated connectors) and a high end - ish 125$ cable (all 3 foot) linking a iMac to a ayre qx9 dac, ayre amps, and very nice speakers (devore??, I forget). Player was ammrra with itunes. Dealer let me pick a music selection that I know well and set to looping the section and running the pause/cable swap every couple repetitions. he was very fast and seamless. I could not see what he did or even if he switched cables every time. Unless he lies (and I do not believe that at all) the cheapo to both the decent and fancy was a easily detectable difference. I could not tell the difference from decent to the fancy no matter what. spent at least an hour with this nonsense and I was able to call the cable upon testing between the good ones and the cheapo. For me on that system the high end was not worth the money but the fact that I could hear any differences at all was a surprise. Yet another thing I dont understand but acknowledge. |
@Chatta... everything about cables is system dependent. Tell us your experience; I for one would like to know.
:) listening,
Ed |
I've been reading about this, and im planning to make some tests to see if i really notice a big difference using expensive cables. There is a good thread at HF about this. |
"So, OK it is plausible that different USB cables sound different from one another."
If there are any measurable "speed" differences in cables that would cause timing issues the difference would probably so small compared to any clocking on the host or re-clocking in an adaptive USB based DAC. With an synchronous DAC it wouldn't matter with all other things being equal (clocking into DAC chip, etc.).
And, then even if there is measurable jitter for whatever reason, how much jitter is needed for it to be audible using strict ABX testing? Not the single person swapping cables and thinking what they recall hearing minutes ago is accurate.
|
Hi Vvinc... this is my suggestion if you are interested in Ridge Street USB cables... call Robert at RSA... describe your system (particularly your digital front end as well as its playback software, your music preferences, and see what he has to say. In my experience, he is a very knowledgeable, candid, and honest person.
If I recall correctly, and I think I am accurate in this otherwise I wouldn't mention it, Robert has a trial period for customer satisfaction: (my understanding is that) you don't like the cable and you haven't let your dog chew on it, you get your money back. One note of caution, on my system Robert advised 100 hours of break-in/settling in, but that was very optimistic. My system with the Enopias took at least 175 hours (maybe more) to achieve its capabilities in a sustained and repeatable manner. Now that it has hundreds of hours on it, it is a remarkable performer, and I wouldn't consider selling it. I have his Alethias USB cables on two other systems which I purchased used on Audiogon and even with them it took considerable time. In fact, it's my belief that one sale took place because the seller didn't wait long enough for the cable to achieve its place in the system. One day, while playing it, everything snapped into focus and has stayed there.
So, bottom line, call Robert and discuss your system and listening habits with him. If he thinks his cables, whether Poiema, Alethias, or Enopias, will be or won't be a good fit, he'll say so.
As some sage said long ago, "the proof is in the pudding," so take a listen and decide for yourself (but remember my cautions about the settling in/break in period which can be quite extensive),
:) listening,
Ed |
It makes some sense that since this is STREAMING and not standard USB transfer it could be subject to some "non-1-0" effects such as timing variation, power interference, etc... So, OK it is plausible that different USB cables sound different from one another.
Here's what makes no sense: The companies who make high end USB cables cannot possibly be designing them to address "timing variation." NO ONE really knows exactly what is going on with timing variation within a USB cable, how to measure it, or how to make a cable to address it. RFI and power issues maybe- but these companies are just altering the conductors in the cable (silver, copper), shielding, etc... based on their design of analog cables. So any difference in sound quality between cables should essentially be random.
Then you read stuff like "using our special blend of materials" or "everything in our cables makes a difference." And even worse, stuff like:
"switching to the ($200 USB) cable increased the soundstage depth and layering. Moving to the ($600 USB) cable was even more revelatory with more top end air and sparkle. But switching in the top of the line cable caused the boundaries of the room to truly disappear."
If the cable companies have no idea what they are doing when it comes to USB cables- and they don't because they can't possibly - then differences should not depend on price or on the use of exotic materials that make analog cables sound good. |
Istanbulu,
OK. I have $1150. to buy a meter of the Enopias!! USB cable.
Other than the Âwow factor, which can be quantified in emotional/psychological termsÂsort of like ÂHallelujah! ÂItÂs A Miracle! ÂThe Cucumber is Scared With A Religious Symbol!Â): what electrical/physical/scientific data can you provide to those of us who may want to consider becoming owners of this USB cable? |
The original poster's question was
>>Will a higher quality USB cable make a difference when being used between a storage device (bus-powered mobile drive) and a music server (w/o DAC), as opposed to those used between a source (iMac) and USB converter/DAC? Can anyone confirm an audible improvement?<<
and I can't say because I'm using a Ridge Street Audio firewire connection for that between my 2010 MacMini and my Oyen MiniPro 1TB storage HD... but...
I can say that the USB cable between the MacMini and the DAC is an important link.
I just upgraded from a Ridge Street Audio Alethias USB cable to a Ridge Street Audio Enopias, and after about 150 hours of settling in, the change is simply astonishing. The Alethias is a superb USB cable, and the Enopias is all of that and so much more in musicality and detail... all of the good stuff in music and music reproduction.
It's hard to believe that I'm listening to the same system that I had 150 hours ago, with one change: the USB cable. The "wow factor" is huge.
Just my experience,
:) listening,
Ed |
Again this my system:
Computer > WinXP > lossless > iTunes/foobar > USB > Belden/Nordost > Cary Xciter DAC (Jellyfish PC) > Nordost Blue Heaven RCA/Blue Jeans RCA/DIY RCA > three channel beta22 amp with sigma22 power supply/Woo WA6SE (Nordost Blue Heaven PC) > Senn HD800
I have been to meets and friends' home and compared my system to other top tier rigs. With several different sources and DACs. I will say it rivals or surpasses others without issue. I've had more than a couple listen to it. A headphone rig is more than capable of hearing subtle system changes. What I can say is that between the Belden and Nordost USB cables I can't discern any significant difference. |
If you were using itunes on a PC, its no wonder. You will never achieve good SQ this way. You should do more reading on the forums.
Are you now using Kernel Streaming plug-in with Foobar2K on XP or Wasapi on Vista/Win7?
If not, then the same, you will never get it.
What device are you using to get S/PDIF output? Is it a USB DAC? Async USB interface?
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
I switched from iTunes to foobar and I still can't hear the difference between the Belden Gold and Nordost USB cable. |
To my ears a usb cable is a usb cable. 1's and zero's. |
Ok, I set up the Dell Windows 7 laptop as the server for the Tranquility SE DAC using iTunes as the playback software, and it was as though the oxygen was sucked out of the soul of the system. Yeah, I tried different USB cords, but I couldn't hear a difference. The whole system just went flat, no depth, no point sourcing, no ghostly instrumentation: just flat, dry and soul-less.
I hooked the Tranquility back on to the MacMini 2010 and returned to bliss.
I can truly understand how the difference between USB cords cannot be perceived when using a laptop.
Thanks for the opportunity. I would have never tried this otherwise. It was ugly but worth knowing what I have.
:) listening,
Ed |
This got off track fast. My question was a simple one requiring a simple straight answer to; "can you detect an audible difference (improvement) with a higher quality USB cable when used between a STORAGE DEVICE (EXTERNAL DRIVE) AND A MUSIC SERVER (NO DAC)?". I've concluded no, simply based on the fact the data is not being transferred through a sensitive link between a digital source and DAC or converter. My example is the same as the music files being stored on/retrieved from a drive connected to a computer or on a network. It's not until that data is being transferred between the digital source (music player, streamer,...) and a DAC/converter that the cables quality comes into effect and becomes imperative. That's my unqualified, non-tech, take on this subject. If you have experience to the contrary I would like to hear. |
Since I grabbed some unknown red USB off a peg on the wall, I've been quite satisfied. This doesn't mean I wouldn't be more satisfied wth a $250 cable; what it does mean, is that I will never find out. |
Hi Ed,
Before you start let me know what your rig will be. I'll be curious if nothing else. I do have what many will consider as a top tier setup. My laptop is a Gateway WinXP. Not that should make enough of a difference. I've heard setups with win7.
Maybe it could be that the Nordost and Belden Gold USB cable just don't have significant differences? I haven't heard other name brand USBs yet so I won't speak of those.
I think/hope you'll enjoy the headphone syetem. It may not be the same as a two channel one, but can be pretty damn stellar. Let me know.
Ross |
Baka1969... sorry about the typo previously btw...
ok, so now I'm thinking that the first chance I get I'll do the easiest of two things: I'll serve my system with my laptop... last year's Dell... and see if I can discern a difference in its audio reproduction and whether or not, using the laptop as a server, I can hear differences in USB cords using the Dell laptop as a server. If you don't like Dells and Windows 7, I'm sure one of my buddies can find a late model Apple laptop for this experiment.
More to the point, I've asked one of my buddies to try to find someone who will loan me their headphone amp and headphones, equal to or better than your rig, and I'll do the same thing with a laptop. This might require some time and horse trading, but I'll see what I can do.
My hunch is that my system will be degraded considerably. Anyway, that's my operating theory. If that's invalidated, I'll be sure to pass it on as well because I will be able to free up some serious cash by selling my speakers, MacMini, and related cables (particularly the USB cables).
As I say, this might take a little time, but I'll at least do the laptop experiment within a couple of weeks (given my work schedule and family routines and scheduling). I don't have equivalent power cords to the Jellyfish... would Synergistic Research T3s and T2s be acceptable for this experiment?
I'll be sure to publish my impressions on Audiogon. I'll also bring in non-audiophiles (who won't know or understand what it is I'm doing) for their impressions as well.
:) listening,
Ed |
Hi Ed,
Let me address the headphone part of what you were mentioning. Two channel speakers and headphones do things a bit differently. That doesn't necessarily mean one is better than the other. Speakers obviously have "real" soundstaging and imaging while headphones have "perceived" staging and imaging. While headphones can be highly resolving. As for timbre, tonal balance, transparency and coloring it's more or less a wash between them. There are too many variables. Especially with speakers that rely on a room's acoustics and speaker placement. I've heard enough two channel systems and headphones rigs (both low, mid and high fi) to know. I also know that a properly set up two channel system and headphone setup can both be extremely revealing of source and music.
The terrific thing about headphones is it's fairly easy to bring your entire setup with you. So, I've been to meets and listened to a wide variety of different gear. Systems that cost $100's, $1000's and even $10000's. Even headphones can cost in the $1000's. The top tier headphones sound amazing and rival very high quality speakers in many ways. I'm not talking about the cheap crappy things you get with your iPod here. Hyperbole aside, the Senn HD800 has been compared to speakers costing $40000. Your mileage may vary but you get the idea. My point is that high quality headphones are more than capable of detecting minute system changes. Some even better than certain speakers. So that's not the issue.
Moving on to having a laptop vs a tower, again I believe there are too many variables. I have directly compared my setup with other setups including analog and CD players. Let me say that I think, and others that have heard my system have said it's an excellent system.
Even with amplifiers, headphones amps can be of extremely high quality. I have two excellent amps capable of detecting system variances.
The last part, one you didn't mention, is, is my hearing up to the task? Without having to submit proof I'll say my hearing is probably at least on par with someone in their 40's. Although I think it's a bit better.
The thing is that although I've tried to hear significant differences in the two higher quality USB cables I have, I just can't say with certainty I hear any.
Peace,
Ross |
Bafa1969, I'm wondering how things are going with your listening comparisons (although it might be a bit early to ask).
The significant thing that attracted my attention regarding your setup (as described above) was your computer source. Most computer-based music enthusiasts that I converse with suggest the avoidance of laptop computers as music servers. Now the reasons for this have been explained to me extensively, but IÂm afraid many of them are currently beyond my Âken and I'm very reluctant to post things I don't fully understand. Perhaps someone here (Steve N, perhaps) can address this for our benefit. My "takeaway" understanding of this has to do essentially with noise, other applications competing for memory and hd action, etc.
Having said that, my thoughts are that if you were to switch from a laptop to a Mac Mini (either a 2,1 or 4,1 with Pure Music as the playback software in memory mode) that you would begin to hear the nuances which different USB cables afford. My suggestion is to find someone locally with a Mini and a peripheral HD for music file storage, invite them over with the computer equipment, and take a listen for yourself. That should illuminate things far more for you.
Another factor that might be affecting your experience of USB cabling has to do with playback into headphones. I have nothing against them whatsoever, but IÂm sure that most people would agree that the headphone listening experience and its aural dynamics are much different than the experience of listening to music from speakers in a properly setup listening room.
If you could take your computer and DAC and USB and interconnect cables to someone who has a good setup with quality speakers, you probably would begin to notice differences in the listening experience as well as those that relate to the USB cables themselves.
I fully realize that this post might sound to many readers and to you to be a Âred-herring approach to your questions and interest, but I assure you I have no need or interest in distracting you from your concerns.
I simply think that these two factors, your computer source and your headphones, might be affecting the discernible differences in USB cables.
So, in short, what I am saying is that your listening experience with USB cables is probably accurate: for you listening to your system, there is no difference between USB cables, but that might be because of the computer source and the use of headphones.
I hope this makes sense and is helpful. If anyone could please add their insights as to why the selection of computers makes a difference to the experience of DAC-based music, that would be most helpful.
:) listening,
Ed |
Ed,
I've been using the Nordost USB as my default for some time. I figured that since I have it that it can't hurt. I use two songs to do my A/B comparisons with the Belden Gold. Pink Floyd's "Echoes" and Tool's "Third Eye". They're both long, well recorded and dynamic. Plus I know them well. I've used short passages and listened to the songs in their entirety. Here's the setup I used to listen:
Laptop>lossless>iTunes>Nordost/Belden Gold USB>Cary Xciter DAC(Jellyfish power cable)>Nordost Blue Heaven IC>b22/s22 headphone amp(Nordost Blue Heaven power cable)>Sennheiser HD800
When I change out ICs or power cables I can detect differences between them to various degrees. Try as I might though the past day or so I haven't been able to distinguish any significant changes. Of course it's not a blind test and if attribute if there are any minute variations they could be placebo. I'll continue to listen but if there are any changes between the two cables I haven't found them. YMMV |
It is your ears/brain that are adjusting and not the cable. MY OPINION |
Baka1969... I'm interested to hear your experience.
One of the things I've discovered is that it takes some considerable time for an audio USB cable to settle in and reveal its inherent qualities. For example, some cables attached to my MacMini/DAC combo that seemed pretty harsh and sibilant in the beginning hours, over considerable playing time lost that attribute and revealed others more pleasing.
Why? Do not know, but I've heard changes like that with USB cables many times.
:) listening,
Ed |
I appreciate what Istanbulu said. He qualified it as his experience. On a similar note I have found different interconnects and power cords soud different to varied degrees. I still have the three different USB cables with me and will do some listening over the next few days just to retset what I've heard before. I have a very wide variety of genres I listen to (rock, prog, jazz, classical, blues, hip hop to name just a few of the many) so it will give me a decent idea what the USB cables do and don't sound like to me. |
Over the years, the basis of my listening experience with USB cables is reflected in this incomplete list: Belden, Cryoparts, Locus Design, WireWorld Starlight, stock Oyen Minipro USB cable, dbaudiolabs The Essential Signature, Ridge Street Audio Poiema!!! (two different versions), Ridge Street Audio Alethias (two different versions), Virtue Audio, and tomorrow I'll receive a Ridge Street Audio Enopias from Robert.
My experience is that the use each of these cables results in a significantly different audio experience depending upon which of my three systems they are on, which DAC is being used, and which MacMini (2,1 and 4,1; how much memory each has, and whether they have the stock HD or SSD drive) and what peripheral hard drive is being used and its cabling.
Over the years, my experience is that selection of USB cables matters.
IÂve gained this experience by buying different cables, breaking them in properly, listening to a variety of music through them for extended periods of time, taking notes, listening with other music lovers, comparing, contrasting, and using them on three significantly different systems over which I have complete control. I have my favorites on my systems right now, and IÂll see what the Enopias has to offer in the weeks to come.
My suggestion to those audiophiles new to USB DAC-based music systems is for them to listen to several different USB audio cables and determine what satisfies and pleases.
Your experience might be similar to mine (in which there are large differences to be heard and experienced), or similar to Baka1969 (in which, evidently, no differences were detected), or uniquely your own.
In addition, I can say, based on my experience, that the more the cable is played/used, the more of its inherent qualities are revealed. A simple 1 hour playing/listening will not reveal enough information. Why this time is required (in my experience, sometimes hundreds of hours), I have no idea, but on my systems it is very obvious.
One final comment: when someone contributes to these discussions who has "skin" in the game, e.g. Steve Nugent, I think this makes a difference than say my commentary.
I'm a person who loves music and wants a reasonably good quality reproduction of that music.
Within the limitations of my time and budget, I gain experience by trying out equipment and cabling. I gain perspectives and ideas by "listening" to others with greater knowledge and experience than I have.
When someone has their business and their professional reputation in this adventure, that's quite another thing. Audio is a very small community. Should Steve or someone similar in the engineering, manufacturing, and sales of these devices write something that is not accurate or valid, they pay with their livelihood and reputation. If I say something inaccurate or ignorant, I can apologize and move on without much impairment.
Paying attention to those who have their "skin" in the game, imho is a bit different. After all, contributors like Steve N. could just let audiophools blabber on in ignorance and misinformation and in the process mislead those new to audio.
jmo ymmv
:) listening,
Ed |
It's my money and I can spend it or not spend it. They're my ears and I hear what I hear. When I state an opinion I'll say it's my opinion. When I state a fact I'll say it's a fact that is verifiable. As I've stated earlier in this thread I have listened to a commercial USB cable, a Belden Gold cable and a Nordost Blue Heaven cable. In my opinion, to my ears, I couldn't hear a difference between the Belden and Nordost.
What bothers me is when others tell their opinions as fact. Or don't qualify them as their subjective view. Both objective and subjective views are both valuable tools for evaluation for me. I weight the beliefs of others depending on who's making them. Sometimes I even value some's opinion that is contra to mines if I know their listening preferences are opposite of mine. I don't think I've read any evidence within this thread that has convicted me that different USB cable makes a significant difference between each other above a quality build. YMMV |
I especially enjoy those who dismiss the possibility it is the cable yet make unsubstantiated guesses like "I believe that most of the sound effects that are erroneously identified as jitter are in fact the result of elasticity buffer stack overflows" or "I believe that most audiophiles can't discerne jitter (w/ USB2), and wouldn't know what it sounded like even if if they could."
BTW what difference does it make whether or not they can identify the source of the distortion as long as they can hear it. I bet you could inject an audible level of measurable distortion like THD into a system and most couldn't tell you what it is and furthermore wouldn't care as long as they had a way to reduce it.
So to sum it all up, yet another gigantic waste of time. I could search the archives and come up with hundreds of threads exactly like this one. The engineers can't explain it so they refuse to believe it exists while others don't care a hoot about explanations as long as they are convinced they hear it.
Oh yeah, and once again it has deteriorated into a pissing contest between the two factions. Who could have seen that one coming :>)
.
. |
Some people will remember some of my posts and it's no surprise I agree with Br3098. Any thing that a USB cable can do to "impede" bit flow is probably negligible compared hard timing realities in a PC or adapting the clock in the DAC for non asynch implementations. Interesting point about the connectors.
Also, I'm tired of people saying "trust your ears" or something to that ilk. Yes, if you like what you hear that all that matters. However, when you have to compare two things, you have to rely on your brain. And it's been proven that you can't trust your brain to accurately recall small differences in audio frequencies especially after a few seconds of time elapses.
larry |
Ed,
Dude, did I run over your cat or something? I apologize if I inadvertently besmirched one of your audio idols. But I would appreciate it if you would stop lecturing. As I have said previously, you don't know me or anything about me. Your assumptions and guesswork are both incorrect. If you want to know something about me, just ask. I am an open book. |
Steve,
Streaming data is streaming data, whether it's audio files or instrumentation data. It's either bit perfect and time correct or it's not. Yes, jitter is problematic but, as I'm sure that you would agree, not nearly as much with USB2 as it was with USB1. I'm sure that my next comment will further endear me to the peanut gallery, but frankly, I will say that I believe that most audiophiles can't discerne jitter (w/ USB2), and wouldn't know what it sounded like even if if they could. What's the worst jitter you have measured for USB2 gear that was in spec? Probably not more than 125uS or so, and I don't know anyone who can detect that. I believe that most of the sound effects that are erroneously identified as jitter are in fact the result of elasticity buffer stack overflows.
Re: my comment for Gordon Rankin - I was not making a wholesale endorsement of Gordon or his products. I have never met the man, but I'm sure that he (like you) is a smart guy. I was simply recommending his whitepapers to another poster as a good primer on USB, since there seems to so much misinformation bandied about on this forum. |
"I'm pretty certain he was the first though!"
I believe Ploytec and other Pro Audio designers had async designs out first, resulting in products from EMU and Tascam. I interfaced these to my Pace-Car.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
"Gordon is not the only one with async USB interface designs."
I'm pretty certain he was the first though! |
"I agree with you about timing variations. There's also latency, packet loss/corruption, and a host of other issues that can affect USB (or any almost any other data connectivity protocol)"
No, I think you missed the point. Its the cycle-to-cycle timing variations, the jitter that sets audio streaming apart from other applications of USB. This is not about missed packets or data errors. These are extremely rare.
"Anyone who wants to can find and read Gordon Rankin's excellent white papers on USB and specifically asynchronous mode operation."
Gordon does understand a lot about the software and protocol aspects of USB. That is his strength IMO.
I, on the other hand have strengths in high-speed digital design, transmission-line effects and other relevant design areas. Gordon is not the only one with async USB interface designs.
I have found that none of these async USB interfaces are completely immune to the benefits of a good USB cable, not Gordons, not mine. I have not discovered the exact mechanisms, but I know its true.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
Br3098...personally I think it's hilarious that you would lecture Steve Nugent in your post... especially suggesting that Steve is one of those who >>...has to guess<<.
My suggestion to anyone reading these posts is to pay your own tuition (it's very modest compared to Koegz's suggestion of >>putting their [your] money in the best equipment they [you] can afford in the body of their [your] system! Body= speakers, amp, line stage and dac.<<): try several modestly priced, reputable USB cables... get them previously owned and used on Audiogon for a fraction of their original cost... and decide what works for you.
Listen with your ears, not your eyes and reading, and you will find what satisfies you.
The bottom line is that some of the above posters are suggesting that you can use just about any industrial USB cable out there... ones used for printers and any other utilitarian purpose... and you will receive the same musical qualities that a more expensive audio USB cable will provide. That might turn out to be the case, but it's not my experience and not the experience of many other DAC-based music lovers.
I agree with Steve Nugent; some of the arguments made in this thread are >>tired<< and I might add, tiring.
My only concern in this is the misleading (and disinformation) of those new to computer-based audio, specifically USB DACs. There's many promises made out there by DAC designers and manufacturers, and there are many adequate, good, very good, and outstanding designs. Newbies will not realize the full potential of the DAC of their choice without careful experimentation to find the cabling, particularly USB cabling, that will maximize the musicality of their chosen DAC source.
:) listening,
Ed |
My thoughts and expressions exactly! |
Steve, I didn't read your post until after my little rant. Please keep in mind that USB is not an audio interface - it's a source to peripheral device connectivity bus. As far as USB is concerned, there is no difference between audio files and jpeg photos, an Oracle spreadsheet or java code. The "audio interface" part starts on the outbound side of the DAC.
I agree with you about timing variations. There's also latency, packet loss/corruption, and a host of other issues that can affect USB (or any almost any other data connectivity protocol). But I was responding to a poster that claimed that changing USB cables provided " The top end air, the transparently and better defined bass are easily distinguished differences." That's not a phenomena that can be attributed to error correction, or timing, or latency, or voltage regulation, or phase lock, or... whatever.
It's easy to say ignore or dismiss the science involved in audio. Over the course of human history, anything we can't explain (or didn't want to take the time to understand) is described as magic. Well, guess what? There is no magic in audio, just a lot of science. Circuit design is a science. Tube design is/was science. Acoustic speaker and cable design is science. Transformers, resistors, capacitors - all based on good, hard scientific principles.
About two years ago we had a job for a major aerospace company, designing a system to collect and sample broad spectrum analog audio feeds some remote sources. Very remote. Anyway, when we used USB 2.0 for part the low-res portion of the system, and in our testing we found that for cable runs of up to 20'-25', the actual cable (manufacturer, country of origin, jacket, etc.) made no difference. The connectors use for the USB cables made a measurable difference in the amount of packet error correction that was required. Upgrading the USB connectors on the source systems and target devices made a huge difference, dropping the packet error rate down to almost zero; even if used with the least expensive commercial cables.
My last word on this incendiary topic: all this information is available online. Anyone who wants to can find and read Gordon Rankin's excellent white papers on USB and specifically asynchronous mode operation. They provide an excellent explanation on how USB works, so nobody has to guess. |
Ed, do you know me or anything about my audio experience? I worked in the audio business for several years in the 1970s, and while I am in the computer business, for the last 20 years my firm has specialized in systems for the A/V and digital media industries. We design and setup systems every day for recording studios, editing houses and post-production facilities. We have also designed audio DSP systems for the Air Force and the Navy. I hate to make posts about me, but I have tested, used and LISTENED to a larger variety of analog and digital cables, probably more than you ever knew existed. If you want to believe that a digital cable can make a difference in a small section of the (converted) analog signal, be my guest.
Bill's Corallaries:
1- If it's true to you, it's true (to you).
2- Just because you want it to be so doesn't make it so.
Sakahara, I apologize for hijacking this thread for my own selfish purpose. |
If you are in my neck of the woods, come by and take a listen for your self. I have both cables and don't plan to get rid of one.
lee |
"Sorry, but it's just not possible. Keeping it simple, USB is a digital data transport bus, not an analog port. All it moves in the data path is 0s and 1s."
I'm afraid that this is a tired argument. I've read the same argumant dozens of times on the forums. This shows a misunderstanding of the difference in audio streaming and other data transfers.
This is real-time. All other transfers from a computer are not real-time, except maybe some video.
Because it is real-time, it is subject to timing variations. These timing variations can have an impact on the USB interface, ranging from direct jitter affects, power effects, grounding effects, RFI effects and transmission-line effects.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
I have done exactly what you suggest Istanbulu and I could turn this arround on you. I agree with Br3098! Not just because of some education or the science of electronics but from experiance. I am not going to argue with what you say you hear, just that for most "newbies", as you call them, they are MUCH better off putting their money in the best equipment they can afford in the body of their system! Body= speakers, amp, line stage and dac. If I sound annoyed, I am.... for at one time I was a newbie and listen to such gibberish. If a usb cable makes a real difference it is so limited to my ears I can not hear it. Now that is not to say that if your cable has a loose connection or is so poorly made it may not hinder the transpher of digital information. It does not take an expenssive cable to complete this task. But, as long as the digital info is transphered completly, the sound quality is determind by the dac/clock conversion, the line stage's ability to magnify and transpher, without any added harshness or denigration to the amps, which must do the same for the speakers. Spend your money where you wish. It is your money. IN MY OPINION, Not on digital cables. Take it or leave it! |
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Br3098... please, please, please speak from audio experience. i.e. actually using different USB cables on a quality DAC with a quality computer such as the MacMini.
Give it a try... actually build some real listening experience with this equipment and cabling... and then come back to us with your listening experience on your own system, with your own DAC, your own computer, and your own music... not your book learning and theory derived thereof.
I respect learning from the academy. I am a product of it and an active member of it myself. But it has its limits, and this is one.
If I sound annoyed, I am.
I am frankly so tired of "authorities" who have not taken the time to gain their own audio experience misleading newbies with the "truthiness" of their book learning and university degrees on chat forums such as this one and in other places.
You wrote:
>>all of my 30+ years experience in the physical sciences, data collection and computer systems design leads me to believe otherwise.<<
Listening experience matters. This is not an article of belief or faith as in your statement >>leads me to believe otherwise<<.
:) listening,
Ed |
The Diamond usb cable is so much better ,it is across the board better than the carbon usb cable. The top end air, the transparently and better defined bass are easily distinguished differences. DonÂt let anybody kid you there is no difference among usb cables. The difference to me is just like all the rest of the cables. They all sound different. Sorry, but it's just not possible. Keeping it simple, USB is a digital data transport bus, not an analog port. All it moves in the data path is 0s and 1s. If a different USB cable results in a change anywhere downstream then you have a major problem somewhere in your system. I know that you think that you are hearing what you say that you think you are hearing, but all of my 30+ years experience in the physical sciences, data collection and computer systems design leads me to believe otherwise. |
