Fed Ex Ground Shipping Woes

IMO, there is a fundamental flaw with Audogon's statement. If Audiogon is
going to make such detailed policy statements, then Audiogon should take
into consideration who has possession of the damaged goods.

If the seller is expected to refund the money immediately to the buyer, then
the buyer will (usually) have both the component and the money, and the
seller will have nothing. This is not equitable. There are many circumstances
of partial insurance claims paid. Let's say a faceplate has been damaged and
the component is otherwise fully functional. If the buyer has the component
and the full refund, and if the insurance company pays the seller $200 for the
faceplate damage, then the seller is now relying on the good faith of the
buyer to return the component, or to return the refund. Essentially, the seller
is left without any leverage, and is open to potential fraud by the buyer who
keeps the money and the component.

Now, if the component is picked up by the shipping company for inspection,
and is no longer in the buyer's possession, then refunding the buyer's money
is more equitable, as the shipper has the leverage of the contract to force the
shipping company to return the component or face a lawsuit.

IMO.

I had a situation where I took speaker components to UPS and had them pack the items. The buyer later contacted me and showed me photos of the severe damage inflicted during the shipping process. What was strange was that the buyer refused to contact his local UPS to have them inspect the damage. I'm not sure why he refused, but I informed him that if he didn't I wouldn't be able to file an insurance claim and without being able to file a claim, I wouldn't return his money. (I did say if he helped with the claim I would give him a full refund.) I had to play hardball with the buyer because otherwise I could be without the product, without the money paid and without the ability to recoup anything from the shipper. Under some very specific circumstances there are some major flaws in the system.

Onhwy61 offers a perfect case study of why the Audiogon position statement quoted above is flawed.

Yes, Audiogon needs to say this is the normal way to deal with this situation. I once sold a quality turntable to a guy that FedEx Ground nearly destroyed and returned to me. Even the FedEx guy who returned it said "it looks like we did our best to destroy it."

FedEx said that they would consider repairing it but not declare it totaled. It was made in the UK, and I quickly moved to contact the company and to send pictures. Fortunately they were very helpful and gave a "worse case" estimate that FedEx honored. I sent it off and the company did and excellent repair.

The buyer in the mean time was bitching about my screwing him. When he got it back in first class condition, he apologized to me repeatedly.

AFAIK, the buyer is NEVER left with the product AND the money. I've had a couple of these experiences from both sides, buyer and seller. For me, it's always worked out (knock wood). The buyer holds the package for the shipping company to come and inspect it, at which point the shipping company will claim the product. FWIW, NEVER return ship a damaged product, for the shipping company will claim that it was previously damaged.

Anyway, now the shipping company has the damaged product, the buyer has nothing, and the seller has the cash. I couldn't find the exact qoute, but it is in the AudiogoN guidelines that in the case of damage, the reverse steps should be performed. ie: buyer pays, shipper ships, buyer receives. In the case of damage: buyer complains (and should not touch or disturbe the product), buyer notifys seller, seller notifys shipping company, shipping company investigates at buyer's home and confiscates product. Seller refunds buyers money, seller follows through on claim with shipping company.

Now, shipping companies can be tricky, with such language as "ship in original packaging". If the seller cannot convince the shipping company that the package was properly shipped, then it is the shipper, not the buyer, who loses money.

One last thing for sellers, NEVER over-insure. Shipping companies will only fully re-imburse you for what you can PROVE that you received for it......be it a Paypal statement, money order, etc. So if you ship a $3K amp that you sold for $1500, if you insure it for $2500, you will never receive $2500.....only $1500 at best.

Cheers,
John