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Capacitor log Mundorf Silver in Oil

I wished I could find a log with information on caps. I have found many saying tremendous improvement etc. but not a detailed account of what the changes have been. I have had the same speakers for many years so am very familiar with them. (25+ years) The speakers are a set of Klipsch Lascala's. They have Alnico magnets in the mids and ceramic woofers and tweeters. The front end is Linn LP12 and Linn pre amp and amp. The speaker wire is 12 gauge and new wire.

I LOVE these speakers around 1 year ago they started to sound like garbage. As many have said they are VERY sensitive to the components before them. They are also showing what I think is the effect of worn out caps.

There are many out here on these boards I know of that are using the Klipsch (heritage) with cheaper Japanese electronics because the speakers are cheap! (for what they can do) One thing I would recommend is give these speakers the best quality musical sources you can afford. There is a LOT to get out of these speakers. My other speakers are Linn speakers at around 4k new with Linn tri-wire (I think about 1k for that) and the Klipsch DESTROY them in my mind. If you like "live feel" there is nothing like them. In fact it shocks me how little speakers have improved in 30 years (or 60 years in the Khorns instance)

In fact I question Linn's theory (that they have proved many times) that the source is the most important in the Hi-Fi chain. Linn's theory is top notch source with lessor rest of gear including speakers trumps expensive speakers with lessor source. I think is right if all things are equal but Klipsch heritage are NOT equal! They make a sound and feel that most either LOVE or hate. (I am in the LOVE camp and other speakers are boring to me)

So here goes and I hope this helps guys looking at caps in the future. Keep in mind Klipsch (heritage Khorns Belle's and Lascala's especially) are likely to show the effects of crossover changes more then most.

1 The caps are 30 years old and
2 the speakers being horn driven make changes 10x times more apparent.

Someone once told me find speakers and components you like THEN start to tweak if needed. Don't tweak something you not in love with. Makes sense to me.

So sound
Record is Let it Be (Beatles)
The voices are hard almost sounds like a worn out stylus.
Treble is very hard. I Me Mine has hard sounding guitars. Symbals sound awful. Everything has a digital vs. analog comparison x50! Paul's voice not as bad as John's and George's. Voices will crack.

different lp
Trumpets sound awful. Tambourine terrible. Bass is not great seems shy (compared to normal) but the bad caps draw soooooo much attention to the broken up mid range and hard highs that are not bright if anything it seems the highs are not working up to snuff. I have went many times to speaker to make sure tweeters are even working.

All in all they sound like crap except these Klipsch have such fantastic dynamics that even when not right they are exciting!

Makes me wonder about the people who do not like them if they are hearing worn out caps and cheap electronics? Then I can see why they do not like them! If I did not know better from 25+ years of ownership that would make sense.

For the new crossover I have chosen Mundorf Silver in Oil from what I have read and can afford. I want a warm not overly detailed sound as Klipsch already has lots of detail and does not need to be "livened up" they need lush smooth sounding caps. Hope I have made the right choice?

When the crossover is in I will do a initial impression on same lp's. Right now it goes from really bad (on what may be worn vinyl) to not as bad but NOT great on great vinyl. (I know the quality of the vinyl because tested on other speakers Linn)

The new caps are Mundorf Silver in Oil and new copper foil inductors are coming. I will at the same time be rewiring the speakers to 12 guage from the lamp cord that PWK put in. PWK was a master at getting very good sound often with crap by today's standards components.

The choice of speakers would be a toss up now depending on what I am listening to. Klipsch vastly more dynamic but if the breaking up of the sound becomes to much to effect enjoyment the Linn would be a better choice on that Lp. If I could I would switch a button back and forth between speakers depending on song and how bad the break-up sound was bothering me.

volleyguy
volleyguy OP
789 posts
 
Very good Undertow.
I was interested in how some people like high resonating caps. Like my friend when he first heard the comparison he like the perceived "fullness" of the sound. Massive distortion is what it is. After awhile he got frustrated with it but intitial reaction was good.

The vintage cans are a tin can and the sound sounds like it comes from a can resonating.

My friend did leave saying he could not believe the difference and thought it bigger than ANY amp (tube) vs. SS analog vs. digital difference of anything he ever heard.

Undertow as I understand this though Clarity Cap wants to keep the mass produced caps but with less resonating?

Undertow I can say that the vintage cap resonates like crazy and should with it's tin can shape but I sure do not hear resonate distortion on the Mundorf Supreme or Silver in Oil. I hear a plastized sound. This should get interesting. Is this a industry fighting back of changing the style of caps and saying we need same caps with less resonance?
undertow
1,032 posts
 
Volleyguy
The MR Clarity cap is not a mass produced cap like their others it is a brand new line, and from the Humble hifi site with the tests the one just below the new clarity MR is the DTAC which was tested and pretty much ranked the same as the mundorf.. The Clarity cap MR is more expensive, not quite as expensive as the Silver gold oil..

My concerns with Mundorf oil caps is mostly in long term electronic environments of heat, and nobody has really been able to see if newer oil caps will hold up over a very long term or not deteriorate at all.. Speakers I would not be as concerned about leakage or floating from the value as much.

Hence my choice in going this route, the Oil Gold got a 11.5 rating nearly as high as the duelund in the speaker tests..

However the DTAC from clarity cap which is said to not sound like any other clarity cap got a 10.5 and these MR's should be just that much better...

I can tell you this, the MR is quite a bit different approach for sure, I bet they will for about half to 1/3rd the price in electronic applications be equal or better than the duelunds. I used the SILVER oil Mundorfs in the electronics, Great hi's and mids, but bass was not as authoritative being in a Full range application like an electronic device putting out 5 hz to 50 khz for example..

Your Testing is very limited to simply a VERY limited frequency range in your speaker just feeding one DRIVER response at a time... That does not mean they are not great or superior in that single application as you have found they are that good, but for reliability, and for FULL signal unrestricted audio frequency handling, I believe this MR from clarity cap, and such types as VH caps, sonicap platinums, might just be slightly a cut above most of the mundorf and even possibly duelunds in this application for a few un-obvious to the passer by reasons.

I am planning to try your Duelunds in the copper foil VSF config on my own Klipsch horns.. I have full out Alpha core inductor and Jantzen superior caps in them now, The bass would benefit probably ZERO from using a duelund so leaving that alone I will change out my horn cap with the Duelund because I can believe they have that one more step of dimension and smoother noise floor, however I kind of refuse to use the Duelunds that you need to order special in 400 volt at double the price for an electronic application.. I am sure they would be fine, maybe a little magical, however due to the odd Shape, and the "Iffy" results in a full range electronic application, including the fact you will still have more caps changing the sound down the road in the speakers.. I will just believe the MR's will do a better job.

By the way the Jantzen superior caps for about 25% of the cost of mundorfs I believe a better value and sound overall, and are slightly smaller for installation.. you can see the praise on those as well at the humble hifi site, I just decided you can't put all your eggs in one basket of tone.. You are not the first to break ground on the duelunds sounding excellent in hi frequency transducer applications. So I believe you that they are special and worth a shot even at the obscene prices, which by the way I need to use duelund because they are the only ones that will custom make any value you need, any other cap I can't really get it.
undertow
1,032 posts
 
Volley
Oh and sorry what I mean by the odd shape of the duelund above is installing it is a task in my case for this electronic device, and may not fit as professionally as I would like. The MR is super huge too but with the round shape can probably make it work with some standoff from the board or something. Also I highly suggest reading that MR white paper again, it will sink in more and somethings I missed on the first run thru, also watch the video a second time, and you might be swayed that for the price they should be right there if not better in some applications than the top mundorfs or duelunds.
volleyguy OP
789 posts
 
Undertow
I did not mean anything bad against Clarity Cap. I see from Tony Gee they are rated very highly. I would have had them in my test if they were available from same supplier.

I just did not like a couple of Clarity's comment's. Like this one.

"The new MR range harnesses all of the knowledge gathered throughout the research programme and we believes offers the market a superior product based upon science and research rather than
snake oil".

I am not sure who they are trying to discredit the Teflon's or Duelund?

Another quote
"Specifically, we wanted to understand the
underlying technology of our capacitors, without looking at exotic materials and strange assemblies".

Again who are they trying to discredit?

I just did not like those comments but do look forward to what you think of them! I also am a little touchy when the industry seems to protect the current ways of doing things. I remember getting back into vinyl after being barraged when digital came in about no tics and pops like all would be great. I am also a little ticked at finding out how good vintage tubes sound after my dealer kind of told me tube people were also a little odd?

I do also want to hear more than just tweeter caps and can't wait till they are here. I do also realise Duelund is very expensive!
undertow
1,032 posts
 
Volley no offense but I believe both of those comments you cut are very just well "universal", they basically said well we decided to see if different shapes and materials were simply different shapes and materials not necessarily contributing to sound but contributing to the type of design necessary to use these materials they chose, I don't see that they were trying to discredit or say anything was wrong with other designs..I mean come on you don't see everybody including duelund trying to give a little extra fluff to their design marketing? I mean they virtually discredit the entire industry if you look at their point of view too!

IN FACT go look at the Clarity Cap DTAC its totally out of control ! It does not look like a cap at all, it looks like Duelunds inductors! So They are not trying to say the types of designs were not executed well by many, but simply that it could be executed obviously in a more traditional way as well vs. forcing a square peg into a round hole.. in a capacitor configuration. Don't think they discredit anyone, and they even state they worked closely with many of the cap manufactures on what they were trying to accomplish. There is definitely snake oil in some of the designs..

By the way I was not totally blown away by Clarity cap SA series, they were nice, and did nothing wrong, also HUGE, and believe it or not better built than even the mundorfs on many levels and much cheaper, but they were just nothing too exciting.. I would not have suggested the claritys if I did not see this was not even of their own family in design, I found the clarity caps however the best of cheaper caps minus the jantzens, and thats their lower lines, I expect pretty good things from the MR so I will not B.S. anybody about them, I have no gain from that, but they just make sense over spending 200 for V-cap or something that seems to probably be no better. here is the link to the DTAC. The DTAC was their previous top of the line till the MR came along as well.. Tell me Clarity cap is only trying to push conventional cylinder type designs now :-)

http://www.claritycap.co.uk/
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