Jazz for aficionados

Hello again Orpheus (regards to Frogman and Rok)...

I listened to Lee’s "Search for The New Land". I was glad to see this concept of "abstract" getting a little discussion before I responded to you here. I do think we have different things in mind when using or hearing the word, "abstract". For me Search was immediately accessible...not a painful or tedious exercise at all. More structured, melodic and rewarding than I expected.

I might be mixing things together inappropriately (probably am). When I hear abstract I expect a less/loosely structured composition possibly with elements of dissonance, and "free jazz"; sometimes a "difficult" listen.  
I admittedly lack the music theory training to better describe what "abstract" means to me, so I’ll give a few examples of things that I consider abstract. (A number of things on the ECM label, as it turns out). Look forward to comments from yourself and others if this topic (how to define abstract as applied to jazz) seems worth pursuing. Maybe you won’t even think some of what I’ve listed qualifies (A) As Jazz and (B) As abstract!  That’s OK too...I’m interested in other points of view.

In A Silent Way
Love Supreme
Out to Lunch
Rheomusi (Fabiano Araujo et al)
Dis (Jan Garbarek & Ralph Towner)
Magico (Garbarek w/Haden & Gismonti)
Sol Do Meio Dea (Gismonti)

I’m not saying I’m right and you’re wrong applying "abstract" to Search - please don’t misunderstand - but given my expectations for the word, Search for a New Land didn’t seem all that abstract to me.

BTW - quite the stellar group of musicians on that record. I really liked Wayne Shorter’s solo right before and through the 4 minute mark on Pirate Morgan.

Grachun Moncur III is an artist I can only vaguely remember; he could only be found in "aficionados" collections that were so deep into the music, that they functioned as libraries, no, not mine; although I have heard of him.

He is an American trombonist that was born in New York. When he was 11 he attended a private school where Dizzy Gillespie had studied. While still at school he began sitting in with touring jazz musicians on their way through town, including Art Blakey and Jackie McLean, with whom he formed a lasting friendship.

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grachan_Moncur_II


Sometime when I can't find anything that appeals to me with a musician as leader, I do a whole lot better looking him up as a sideman.


Herbie Hancock. "My Point of View"

"Blind Man, Blind Man" – 8:19
"A Tribute to Someone" – 8:45
"King Cobra" – 6:55
"The Pleasure Is Mine" – 4:03
"And What If I Don't" –

Personnel
Herbie Hancock – piano
Donald Byrd – trumpet
Grachan Moncur III – trombone
Hank Mobley – tenor saxophone
Grant Green – guitar
Chuck Israels – bass
Tony Williams – drums



                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9UZWDAoUZk


As well as I like Pepper Adams baritone sax, I don't have anything with him as leader that I like; it might be the same way with Grachun Moncur, that's why if you like this tune, you can help me look.





Enjoy the music.

I completely agree with your sentiments, comments and examples, ghosthouse; and  they go precisely to what I was saying with my comment about not being able to draw the line.  You also used two key words and considerations around the issue of "abstract": structure and dissonance.  While it could be said that "Search For T N L" is "more abstract" than, say, "The Sidewinder" it is not a record that I personally would put on the "abstract" shelf in my record cabinet.  The point is simply that to draw the line as an absolute is pointless; it is different for every listener and where we each draw it is not necessarily an indication of the ultimate value of the music.  As Rok said, of course we can and do draw the line, but it serves little purpose to draw the line as an absolute other than to help us validate our individual biases and limitations as listeners.  It is much more productive to keep the door open to more growth as a listener.  Not necessarily to accept or like the music, but to not shut the door to the possibility of being able to understand it and maybe even like it one day; and to better appreciate certain aspects of the music we already like.

Ghosthouse, I found "Search For The New Land" accessible as well, if I said it I'm getting ahead of myself, when I meant "Evolution" with Grachun Moncur.

"Search For The New Land" I suppose was abstract when compared to "Side Winder". No Ghosthouse, you're not mixing anything up; having said that, I think we should go into what I consider "abstract" and it would indeed include Grachun Moncur's music as leader.

Frogman, I'm not writing for "Down Beat" I'm writing for my taste, and how it sounded to me. Music is not "objective" like science or mathematics, it's very subjective, and whether one is a professor of music, or just a casual listener, that doesn't change. I can easily declare the work too abstract for me.

Let us all address "The Olatunji Concert" which my statement was specifically based on. I said this is what Trane sounded like in 63, after he had carried the tune beyond what it was on the album.


            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kjDrkTmqxQk



Enjoy the music.

more Jimmy Ponder