Jazz for aficionados

So, what exactly are you saying? That the article that you referenced (link) is invalid as a whole since it too is simply "what some guy wrote"? If so, then why did you reference the article? Rok, the problem in trying to resolve this disagreement is that you are relying on, and disputing, only what is being said with words. You are not listening to what the music itself is saying; you are not letting your ears give you "the proof". You insist on equating "influence" with "creation"; they are two different but related things. I am going to be blunt and I mean no disrespect: it's amazing that someone who loves music so much can be so closed to understanding the building blocks of music; and how much there is to understand. The connection (the influence) between the different musics is there to be heard; it's loud and clear. THAT'S the proof. I'll give you a concrete example (you want proof?):

The fifth track on the record that we are commenting on (and the first of "my three") "Fiesta De La Rumba" starts with a slow 3-2 Rumba Clave rhythm. I will get deeper into the importance of Clave rhythm in Cuban music in my comments about the three tracks, but for now "the proof" lies in the fact that the Clave rhythm originated in Sub-Saharan African music traditions and has the same role in that music as in Cuban music. This is well documented and not really up for debate and all one has to do is LISTEN; but, first one has to know what one is listening to. I suppose that this fact is simply a coincidence in your view? This is the reason that I have repeatedly encouraged you to learn more about this stuff. IMO, you are doing yourself a disservice by holding on to ideas that not only have no basis in fact, but are contrary to those of every authority on the subject.

****Don't shortchange the people of the US and Cuba****

Why are you so invested in shortchanging the people of Africa?

O-10, I will try to get my part done this evening.

****Spirituals, Blues, and Jazz are uniquely American, with no African influence I can detect.****

O-10, that comment is almost as surprising as Rok's. I think the operative part of the comment, and what keeps it from being inaccurate is "that I can detect". That one can't detect something does not mean that it isn't there; simply that one cannot detect (hear) it....yet. I think one has to be careful about making comments like that as if they are fact without first having a really thorough grasp of the literature on the subject and what those who have studied the music and its origins very thoroughly have to say on the matter. Of course blues, spirituals and jazz are uniquely American creations, but the African influence is very strong. Again, influence is not the same as creation. And btw, the cross-cultural influences in music are not unique to African culture; the same can be said of any culture that had any significant contact with another. All this becomes obvious if one understands what the components of music are on a deeper level. How can we understand how the use of "blue" notes or polymetric rhythms in African music influenced the blues and jazz if we don't know what a blue note is? Do we? And that is only the tip of the iceberg.

The potential in these discussions is great, but we are going to keep coming up against these obstacles and distractions if instead of keeping a more open mind to how much there is to learn there is commentary presented as fact when it isn't. The following link is highly recommended reading from an "authority" on the subject; and, before we are too quick to deem the article "feel good, politically correct nonsense" (or something like that) I encourage you to remember that practically every jazz player on the planet would agree with it.

Cheers.

http://www.jazzedmagazine.com/2893/articles/focus-session/the-african-origins-of-jazz/

Hello gentlemen - I like very much indeed the direction this thread has been going lately, despite my lack of contributions for a while now. I fully intend to go back over all these links and listen to all these clips when I get a chance. Just about all of them lately are things I am not very familiar with, and I am eager to hear and learn about about them.

Frogman's latest post has some VERY important points, which have been big themes of mine on these forums. Most important is his: "That one can't detect something does not mean that it isn't there; simply that one cannot detect (hear) it....yet." The key word here is YET. Rok and O-10, you both love music so much, and love listening to it. It would be a very simple thing for you both to listen more ACTIVELY, as opposed to passively. These things really aren't that difficult to learn to hear - you just have to put in the effort to train yourself to do so. Doing so will increase your enjoyment of whatever you are listening to a thousand fold. You will begin hearing things you never heard before even in your very favorite music that you have heard a thousand times. You will hear connections between your favorite tunes/albums/artists/genres that you haven't heard before. You will understand the improvised musical "conversations" going on between these great jazz musicians so much more, and the delight you have in listening to them will increase beyond what you can currently imagine. This, to me, is the essence of jazz - these types of dialogues that are completely improvised on the spot, but yet are solidly based on these basic building blocks. All these great musicians know and understand them (as well as their histories and inter-relationships), and use them, much like a writer uses language. The more you speak this language yourself, the more subtleties you will hear in what they are saying that you never even realized existed before.

**** How can we understand how the use of "blue" notes or polymetric rhythms in African music influenced the blues and jazz if we don't know what a blue note is? Do we?******

Of course!! Everyone knows what a blue note is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_note

next question. :)

O-10: we better be careful. I think The Frogman is about to go professorial on us.

Cheers