How to fix my detailed, accurate but BRIGHT system

08-08-09: Gregfisk
I'm wondering if I tried a tube dac like a Havana if this would calm things down.

It would likely affect the sound by softening the highs slightly and emphasizing the mids (depending on the tube installed), but you'd be removing resolution that your speakers are intended to convey (along with your preamp and amp), and you'd be masking an inherent system problem that would be better solved than band-aided, IMO.

Mechans makes a great point about certain IC's. i'm doing IC comparo's as we speak and the Cardas Gold Ref's are in the mix. there is no doubt that these IC's really warm things up, and not by a small margin either. so much so that i don't care for them at this point. (remember that i like things forward or a tad brighter then some). even using krell power, they sounded to warm for me. on the flip side...the acoustic zen silver ref II's sound way too bright with my krell/aerial 7b combo.

a few of you mentioned speaker position. this is something i've been working on too. with help from Rich, i discovered what a big difference this can be. experimented with several new positions in a new location and was shocked to hear how much better everything sounded. have not made the permanent move yet but will very soon

the last comment that rang true to me was that regarding power supply. getting plenty of clean juice to your equipment makes alot of difference imo. kinda pricy but well worth it for me. upgraded to a dedicated 20A line, porter ports, PSA quintet and PSA PW power cords (2 AC-5's and 2 AC-10's). can't tell you which upgrade did the most because each step was very subtle. but together...the whole power supply upgrade did wonders. great depth was the biggest improvement with additional smoothness coming in second. who would-a thought???

being a newbe...none of the above 3 area's of improvement came to my mind naturally. they were all suggestions from various folks around here, kind enough to offer good advice. i thought my system sounded good right when i set it up 4 months ago. can't beleive how much i've learned and how much better it sounds now.(and how much less money i have now =) )

you guys really know your stuff!

cheers
Lev

Gregfisk

Quick Q: Did this brightness issue start only after adding the Butler amp, or has it always been lean clean, and bright sounding? If so, you have your answer on the amp not being the culprit.

Ever wonder how many amps are out there which do not double their outputs when the load impedance is halved? A bunch.

Ever wonder too, why the owners of these amps aren’t lineing up posting about top end brightness?

Did this system you have ever sound otherwise than it does now? Exactly when did this brightness clear and clean non musical adventure first rear up it’s head noticeably? I’d look there then.

I’d bet good money to or with whomever, the items I noted above if addressed, would remedy that fatiguing sound you are encountering, without undertaking wholesale component change outs. Of course you’ll find out when another amp is employed. maybe.

AS Tvad says repeatedly do ensure the ??? amp doubles its power when the imp of the loudspeakers is halved though. Considering any other sort which does not is just time well wasted… or so it seems. Such advice will surely narrow the field of amps to look into for your needs. Given the Butler's output, start with those in the 400 wpc @ 4 Ohms... and up, as you already have that on tap.

Never mind the voice of the amp… or associated gear, setup and cabling, it’s simply always the power aspect.

It’s funny the notes of system fixes follow the trends of their posters. Gear houhnds point to the gear as the bug a boos, room treatment aficionados’ allude respectively to adding items there, cable mavens exclaim buy better wires, etc. well, to each their own aim. And after all, it’s only money.

BTW, there's nothing wrong with those approaches or philosophies, I just feel all of the rig needs careful scrutiny, not merely the stuff you rest on the rack or a shhelf.

it might be as simple as one said the spikes or footers of the 7Bs... or their need for a platform of sorts.

Putting another engine into a car that has bad brakes, a slipping transmission, and or poor suspension, only remedies motor problems.

The thing which confounds me here is I’ve never heard anyone remark the 7Bs were aggressive in their upper ends. Never. This is a first for me… so in fact I’m going on their popularity and no mentions of their so apparent shortcomings. I know that Butler isn’t contributing adversely to the situation too.

FYI
* Hand selected/matched 6SL7GT Twin Triode tubes
(One per channel)
• Fully regulated Tube Heaters with Delayed Soft Start
(10-15 second turn-on delay)
• Load Adaptive Vacuum Tube Driven output circuitry
• Modular power channels with a seperate massive, oversized heatsink for each channel
Independent AC Secondaries and Rectifiers
with 60,000µF per channel filtering

SPECS
• Rated Power (all channels driven):
2 x 250 Watts RMS per channel @ 8 ohms
2 x 400 Watts RMS per channel @ 4 ohms
1 x 800 Watts RMS Bridged (Mono) @ 8 ohms
• Freq response: 20Hz to 20kHz (+/- 0.5dB)
Power Bandwidth: -3dB, 50kHz
• THD: <0.10% @ 8 Ohms, <0.15% @ 4 Ohms
• S/N Ratio: Better than 120dB (A-Wtd)
• Slew Rate: 15v/µsec
• Input Sensitivity: 2V for 250 Watts into 8 Ohms
• Input Impedance: 47k Ohms

400 wpc into 4 ohms!

If that’s not enough power for the 7Bs, maybe other speakers or as said, another amp is needed, depending on which one of those two is the newer or more desired. Personally the 7Bs could be more easily improved upon IMO.

Anything is possible I guess. The Aerials may just hate the Butler or vice versa.

Despite Tvad's well meaning but abreviated listing of proposed areas to find possible avenues for a resolution, I made mention of my own listings as the result of my own exp... and found out about it the hardest way imaginable, by spending money that did not need spending, had I looked into the system as just that a system. The sum of it's parts all working together to perform properly and provide enjoyment for the owner.

The underlying caveat here and elsewhere has always been, "Everything matters, and everthing makes a difference."

Perhaps it has changed now.

I do pray your issue is resolved quickly and without more frustration or length.

It’s funny the notes of system fixes follow the trends of their posters. Gear houhnds point to the gear as the bug a boos, room treatment aficionados’ allude respectively to adding items there, cable mavens exclaim buy better wires, etc. well, to each their own aim.

LOL! Interesting observation, Jim. I suppose that a reason for that is that it's hard "at a distance" to have a feel for the DEGREE of excess brightness, and if everyone had first-hand exposure to the sound, opinions would probably be more convergent.

BTW, re Wireless200's comments, I want to make sure it is clear that I did not mean in my earlier posts to totally rule out the possibility of the amp as being a contributor to the brightness, and I don't disagree with Tvad's assertion that "these speakers are best driven by an amp that doubles power output as impedance is halved."

What I was saying essentially was that assuming the amp has low output impedance, the following is incorrect (aside from the first sentence):

Your Butler 2250 does not double power as impedance is halved.... The result is that the amp produces somewhat louder volume in the highs than it does in the bass, which causes a tonal imbalance that emphasizes the highs....

As long as an amp produces more decibels into higher impedances (treble region) than into lower impedances (bass region), the speaker will sound louder in the treble.

Regards,
-- Al

A few clarifications to remarks made by Blindjim about my suggestions.

First, my "well meaning but abbreviated listing of proposed areas" was not my personal list, but a combined list of suggestions proposed by contributors up to that point in this thread. It was done to illustrate the many viewpoints about the problem, and I closed that post by saying the solution likely rested in a combination of several, if not all the suggestions.

Second, my repeated recommendation of *trying* an amp that doubles down power output is not based on the massive amounts of watts per channel (as I have previously stated). It has nothing to do with being a power hound. The well regarded Portal Panache that I suggested has only 100wpc into 8 ohms and 200wpc into 4 ohms (and it's inexpensive on the used market at around $750). The other amps I mentioned do have a significant amount of power output, but that wasn't the criteria for their selection (which was their ability to double down power output, and the availability of a home trial period).

Third, I suggested the OP try an amp that doubles down power simply to hear if doing so made an improvement in his speaker's tonal balance. Bass volume in balance with treble volume will mitigate perceived brightness (but it won't make a revealing tweeter or midrange more forgiving of what's upstream...another issue all together).

Perhaps I should have been more specific, but the intention was for the OP to try the experiment first, and then use what he learned to seek an amp (or to *not* seek an amp if he perceived no difference in the speakers) with the sound characteristics he preferred. Without question, several of the amps I listed have variations in their sound. I wrote, "If you hear improvements, then you know you're headed in the right direction. You can always return the amp for a refund and look for another amp with similar power output capabilities." And I should have added "and different sonic characteristics".

Fourth, my list of is comprised only of those available with home trial periods, with the idea of keeping down the cost of the experiment to just the cost of shipping.

Finally, I don't claim that the amp solution is the only solution, or that it's the best solution, but in my experience it has proven to be a valid solution.

Having owned the Aerial 7B speakers, and having looked at the speaker's impedance test measurements from John Atkinson, and having looked at the output specs of the Butler 2250, I believe the amp/speaker combination is a worthwhile avenue to investigate, and I've attempted to offer some options to minimize the cost.
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Almarg -
I'm not disagreeing with your discussion of low output impedance. However, in rereading Harley's discussion of power output into varying impedance loads, and the resulting loudspeakers' varying dbW (decibel watts) measurements, he makes no mention of low output impedance negating the effect. Perhaps this is an issue of voltage paradigm versus current paradigm?

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Gregfisk, you might try tilting your speakers back a bit so the tweeters are firing slightly up rather than straight at your listening position. Also, you might try placing the speakers on platforms so the tweeters are above ear level.