Lost sheep, Back to LP Turntable: buy guidance

Psychicanimal: What does one do about the motor vibrations that are directly transmitted to the platter, record, stylus, tonearm and signal with a direct drive unit ? You better have one helluva accurate speed control system that doesn't require ANY correction or the "cogging" of the motor will surely contribute to a higher noise floor with lower resolution. After all, the stylus picks up the vibrations from the grooves while the grooves rest on the platter that is directly connected to the motor. It's not hard to see how isolating the motor from the platter via a "flimsy" belt ( or even string, which reduces the coupling even further ) could be beneficial. It's also not hard to see how mounting the platter and arm on a separate plane or sub-chassis from the motor might be beneficial. As such, making a "good" direct drive is a LOT harder than making a "good" belt drive. It is also more costly since it requires greater design and production effort.

As far as the accuracy of speed goes, do you think that any manufacturer(s) has a strong-hold on motor design or speed controls ? It does not take a rocket scientist to build something like this nowadays. It takes a lot more skill to isolate the platter / tonearm / cartridge from outside influence without creating a completely different set of problems doing so.

I'm NOT knocking the 1200 or other similar tables. I do agree that a lot of the "cheaper" new tables that are raved about are under-designed "hype" and the 1200 "might" actually be a better buy. In terms of isolation, the 1200 is probably better than the "coveted" Linn LP-12.

Having said that, either of the types of tables being discussed are a compromise due to being built to a price point and should be considered as such. No matter what you do though, you can't compare a Chevy to a Porsche / Ferrari. This is true no matter how hard you try to turn that Chevy into a Porsche / Ferrari. Then again, the Chevy is WAY better than the Yugo, which doesn't even deserve comparison to the Chevy to begin with. Sean
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Sean makes some great points. An off the shelf motor is much less expensive to design than a properly designed direct drive mechanism. That's one of the reasons that DD has such a bad reputation, the cheap ones really suck. In a belt drive system, if the belt is absorbing motor vibrations it is constantly moving in relation to the platter/bearing in response to those vibrations. This can't be any good. As most DDs have the magnets attached to the platter and the coils attached to the plinth both halves of the motor assembly are mounted to areas with decent mass which, if the bearing is properly designed, should not move in relation to one another except in the intended rotational manner. This hard mounting certainly sinks some of the vibration of the motor assembly. No doubt some will also reach the spindle and platter. Contrast that with the Linn, for instance, where the platter actually is designed to move in relation to the motor. That means that the path of the belt is constantly being disturbed by that relative motion. Additionally, drag from the stylus can slow the platter momentarily, the belt being compliant it does not force the platter to continue true rotation. This will result in momentary changes in pitch and timing. Sometimes the cure is worse than the disease and neither design does much to address bearing noise. My only point is that, in spite of what most audiophiles think, it is far from a slam dunk. If you have never heard a really high end direct drive, such as the top of the line Technics, Denon, Micro Seiki or Yamaha you will be in for a grand surprise. The strengths and weaknesses of DD tables are quite different than in belt driven tables and while you may, or may not, prefer the DD sound you will find it fully competive in how it honors the delicate fabric of the music.

Sean, when I have my audio room setup and my 1200 fully modded I will invite ewe to come listen to the creature. Robert of Ridge Street Audio will do the rewiring and the interconnect replacement. Too bad ewe don't like fish--there's plenty of fresh walleye and perch where I live now!

In the meantime, give Kevin Barrett a call http://www.kabusa.com and he'll explain you why the 1200 does not cog. He'll also explain (technically) why he believes the 1200 to be the best deck out there, dollar for dollar and why he's worked on designing the fluid damper, the power supply and the modded Groovemaster II.

The 1200 is extremely resistant to vertical vibrations, but not to lateral. I have a plan of attack for that. I will make a frame made of Moca wood to act as a barrier.

I know--I wish the SP10 was still made...

I think the 1200 is a decent sounding DD deck. However, I don't agree that it is better than a decent belt drive. Yes, I am fully aware of the inherent problems in both systems. I have done comparisons, and I always liked the decent belt drive better, although I admit, that it may have something to do with my personal preferences in sound.

Heavy platters would be a good benefit to either of these systems, because of some deficiencies in both drive designs. Most good belt drive tables go to this in order to smooth out the rotational stability. The inertia of the platter does help in this regard - greatly. Unfortunately, most DD tables resort to quartz-locked speed controls and light platters which "hunt" constantly, and create more flutter which is more easily discerned by the ear. The problems in the belt drive tables result in a much lower frequency "wow" which is less discernable and therefore less objectionable to the listener. Yes, I have read the IAR article which devotes about 5 pages to the ills of various belt drive systems. The specs listed for turntables always combine "wow and flutter" together and show some percentage of them combined, such as W&F- 0.8%. However if the flutter component is 0.7% and wow only 0.1%, that table will have more audible performance objections than a table whose main component is low frequency wow, and only 0.1% flutter. So there is more here than meets the eye on a spec sheet. It is not so much that one is more accurate than the other, but in which ways it is inaccurate. The inaccuracies that are less discernable to the ear, will provide better sounding listening because the ear is not noticing them as much as the other type of inaccuracies.

I'm sure that Kevin is very knowledgable, but all AC motors cog, and all quartz locked speed controls hunt, and light platters make it worse. Motor vibrations in DD systems do enter the platter because the platter is part of the motor.

Belt drives have "wind-up and release" with rubber belts. They have issues with interaction of the suspension with the drive system. If they use AC motors, then they also cog. If they have automatic speed controls, then they also hunt. What I have selected is a heavy platter to keep the rotational inertia as stable as possible. I have selected a DC motor with no cogging. I use a belt made from Spectra, which has absolutely no stretch, and is a pain to keep tensioned. My motor speed control is microprocessor controlled, to make speed corrections over several revolutions of the platter, so as not to be as audible as other types(no fast hunting). It is optically coupled with a strobe pattern on the platter so that drift is immediately recognized(<0.1%) and correction applied slowly and gently, at the minimum amounts possible. I have no suspension to interact with the drive system. I place the motor "kitty corner" to the arm pivot to make all motor vibrations that may reach the platter, are in the plane of motion that the cartridge does not sense. In short, I recognize the possible problems and choose systems that deal with those in an effective way.

In the end, it is up to the listener to decide which he likes the best. If that is the criteria, then the listener has made up his mind for his own use, and that is the important thing. I like belt drives. Francisco likes direct drives. Fine. As long as we are both happy with our sound, then it really doesn't matter which type we use. I found long ago that nothing is perfect. Not speakers, not amps, and not turntables. Our choices are largely based upon what problems we can more easily accept in our listening tastes. Different products have different weaknesses. Assembling a system that has fewer of the problems that you, as a listener, are sensitive to, will yield a better sounding system - to you. I think that this is what it really comes down to.

That being said, I think it is great that users can promote their various likes and dislikes about the equipment designs. It is helpful to others who are trying to make buying decisions to hear various points of view. I am probably one of the most vocal and opinionated people on this forum. I certainly think that it is good that we can express our views on these subjects.

I still think belt drives are better. :^) LOL!

Elizabeth, this is how I look at things: I believe audio has "quantum leaps". One might have a component that is better than another, but how much better? For example, our beloved Forté 4. There are certainly better amps, but how much would we have to spend in order to get something *significantly* better? That's my point.

Regarding TTs, I believe it's the 1200 and then the Teres. I would not consider anything else in between. Now I saw this beast in eBay last night:

EMT

This is a rim drive! Bill Parish of GTT Audio does not sell TTs but uses one EMT and a Micro Seiki in his audio salon. You can see the pictures of the EMT used in the Strereophile show. He must have reasons not to use belt drives...

Tom, once someone gets used to proper speed and rotational stability it's easy to pick up the difference. If you had a cheaper belt drive in your rig next to your Teres you'd immediately notice the loss in PRAT. VPI gives us a great example, as their top TT uses a massive stainless steel flywheel in order to keep proper speed and rotational stability. I wouldn't mind to have that beast--not at all. Just remember your cherished vinyl recordings were cut with a DD TT.

In my case, I was accustomed to listen to the big DDs since I started in 1977: Technics SP10, Micro Seiki, the big Yamaha's. In spite of the inherent disadvantages, the DDs had that authority of musical presentation. Now that I'm older and wiser I see that sound is closer to the positive attributes of CDs and makes my system sound more uniform. I simply like it...