Are loudspeakers that different?

Hi, "Bishop":

It's always nice to find someone else who shares my opinions (grin)...

The one point I failed to make in my original post, which is an important factor in speaker design, is the importance of the enclosure. Every other aspect of a speaker's design can be good, but if the cabinet is too resonant, or has diffractive edges, or etc., etc., etc., then the speaker is not going to sound good.

More money for a speaker usually ensures better cabinets -- but not always. Sometimes, more money just buys nicer cosmetic touches, such as really beautiful rosewood veneer. In a number of audio articles I've read over the past 5 years, various writers have commented that the cost of the speaker's cabinet can account for up to 65% of the overall manufacturing cost.

As a comparive discussion point, consider the Vandersteen line, which spends relatively little money on exterior cosmetics (except for the Model 5). Vandersteen instead spends the manufacturing portion of the budget on top quality drivers, crossover components, and solid cabinetry. The cabinets are made of MDF, with excellent internal bracing, but the jersey sock which covers everything costs very little.

My own experience directly parallels Bishop's: really good speakers driven by competent but not top-of-the-line electronics will -- 99% of the time -- sound better than average speakers driven by very costly source and amplifier electronics.

Another variable...listening room! Jimmy2615, you didn't say where you auditioned these speakers! There are many schlock "high-end dealers" who don't have a clue about proper set-up. And a speaker will always sound different in your own home. I once auditioned a pair of Maggie 1.6's that were powered by a 50 watt amp (way, WAY underpowered) and connected by "zip cord". In addition, there were 20 other speakers in the room, all resonating, and one wall of the room was GLASS!! I bought the Maggies anyway, and with proper set up and power, I really loved them!

Jimmy, Scott and Will are correct, in general, though I might disagree with them about the speakers they prefer,and probably disagree a lot about any notions of "synergy." Well-designed cd players and amps are not hard to find, and if well designed, will not differ by much. Just look at the measurements. The noise floor (distortion components mostly) of electronic components is much lower than that of speakers. Plus, the measured frequency response of almost all electronic components is fairly close to flat, whereas speakers tend to vary quite a bit.

There are hundreds and hundreds of speakers in the market, some of them very poorly designed, and there is not much correlation between price and quality. Look at John Atkinson's measurements of some very expensive speakers in the latest Stereophile and read between the lines of his comments. An "enigma" because they sound good to the reviewer but measure weird, means he doesnt know what his reviewer was smoking.

With respect, and fondness, I believe Craig is incorrect when he says that the big differences in speakers are at the frequency extremes. In fact, the big differences are in the midrange, except for really poor designs showing through in the upper bass (boom) and treble (excessive sibilance or lispiness).

In the $2500 retail price range, there are some very good speakers. I dont think it's necessary to spend any more than that for speakers, and there are some wonderful small speakers at lower price points (e.g., Harbeth HLP3ES's and Epos M12's - neither of which do I own). The Vandersteens are well received by consumers as well as reviewers, at very reasonable price points. At all price points, from $200 to $30k and above, there are some absolutely horrible speakers.

Audition as many speakers as you need to before you find a pair that you like. If they have been reviewed with measurements, take the measurements seriously. Finally, consider the effect of your room. Hard reflective surfaces, like low ceilings, nearby walls and coffee tables, will affect the frequency response at your listening position, regardless of which speakers you choose.

Paul

Couldn't agree more SdCampbell, the cartridge and speakers are the most variable, and crucial, elements in the audio equation. And Bishopwill, which killer speakers are you using, 'speakers-first' adherents really want to know!

Fatparrot, you are right on target. The contribution made by the room can make or break even the finest, most synergetic of combinations. That's why I argue that in-home audition is so vital, even if it means paying ghastly shipping charges or driving hundreds of miles. The pain and expense of arranging in-home auditions are as nothing compared to the pain of buying something that doesn't work in your space and not discovering that until too late to return the product.

Sdcampbell and Grandpad (BTW, is that "Grandpa D" as in I have really nice grandchildren or "Grand Pad" as in I have a really nice house?) also hit the nail on the head when they pointed out the sonic contribution of the phono cartridge. Your prelate gave up vinyl years ago but can still remember moving from a BIC giveaway turntable to an NAD "floppy arm" with a Shure V15. Wow! What a difference.

Happy listening. Do let us know what you decide.

will