Jazz for aficionados

****Beethoven’s Last Piano Sonata: Does it Anticipate Jazz?****

In a matter of speaking; probably. More importantly, and important to this thread, a better way of looking at this is, as always, perspective. The facts have a way of always rising to the top; even if slowly:

Consider all the drama and resistance that was put up early in the life of this thread to the idea that jazz is NOT a "purely American" creation; that music, like all art, does not happen in a vacuum and is constantly evolving while being influenced and shaped by what came before it. Jazz is a melting pot of many different influences from different cultures and anyone interested can easily research this well established fact; or go back and read early posts here.

What does one suppose some boogie-woogie pianists played when learning to play the piano? Probably, and among other things, Beethoven sonatas. So, is it so far-fetched to think that a young future boogie woogie piano player, after playing and studying the second movement of the C Minor might think: "Hmmm, I wonder.....let me try this....!"

Welcome back, Rok.

Rok, Jeremy Denk, and other contemporary pianists, have never heard of "parallel thinking" or "coincidence"; two pieces of music can sound similar in spots and have absolutely no relationship.

Just like people, music has a birth and people who caused it to be born; this means it also has a history. "African Americans" brought jazz into existence; I hope we can agree on that. While presently people from all over the globe contribute to that existence, it's birth and history can not be denied.

In regard to music in general, the same can be said for it; meaning that it has parents who represent that particular genre of music. There are songs that you can not hear unless you have sang them; I said that in reference to the "blues", no I'm not referring to the "Delta Blues" which is quite specific, but the Blues in general. I made that statement so you can relate to where I'm coming from; the same applies all around the globe; unless you are from where the music is from, you can't hear it to the depth and degree of someone who is.

Jazz is a highly "subjective" and abstract art form that was closely related to gospel and blues during it's early years. Presently, after so many contributions, it's lost definition (according to me). Presently, the music I like, I choose not to define if it's current, meaning in the last decade or so; it just falls under two classes; like and don't like.

Since music is related to the people who brought it into existence, I find it quite difficult to believe there can be any relationship between jazz and classical; other than they're both genres of music; after all, classical was born in Europe, and we know where jazz was born. When you go back to birth and existence, there can not possibly be two more unrelated genres of music; consequently, there can be no such thing as "proto-jazz" in reference to classical music.

Enjoy the music.

Sometimes the 'connections' or 'influences' we make are extremely tenuous. You can reach a point where we can say all music was influenced by the first human that ever hummed a sound. He/she created notes and phrases., without having any possible concept of music.

O-10's point of view, seems to me, to be the most correct one, with a few exceptions. Such as:

****Presently, after so many contributions, it's lost definition (according to me).*****

We will agree to disagree on all this 'contributions' stuff. A person cannot make a 'contribution' to Jazz, with something that you cannot define as Jazz. Let's be generous, and just say, they made a contribution to 'music'.

BTW, I had no opinion on the piece I posted. Just thought it would create discussion. But I did not 'hear' the boogie woogie. I was listening for 'Pine Top' :). And, after all, the piece did not come from Mt Horeb.

Good points by all.

Cheers

BTW, the article came from the 'Mosaic Records' site.

cheers

****I find it quite difficult to believe there can be any relationship between jazz and classical; other than they're both genres of music****

O-10, kindly explain where, then, the concepts of harmony used in jazz came from if not the European Classical music tradition. African music has practically no tradition of complex harmony to speak of; it's contribution to jazz is in the realm of rhythm.

****A person cannot make a 'contribution' to Jazz, with something that you cannot define as Jazz.****

We are talking about what led to the birth of what would be one known as jazz; and, as such, the contribution of the European classical tradition to jazz is huge.

****But I did not 'hear' the boogie woogie. ****

Jeremy Denk heard it. I heard it; loud and clear. Once again, how does the fact that a person can't hear it invalidate the fact that many others can? What is the most likely scenario: that the many that can are delusional; or, that the one that can't, simply....well....can't?