2017 amps - $10K to $15K who is on your short list?
Hello! I saw recently a short list by TAS on 2016 amps between $10 & $15K MSRP the TAS staff concluded were their choices of the best for last year.
Perhaps these were new entries from2016 only. I don’t know and thee article did not mention that aspect. The list also appears to be a global perspective.
The list contained: Air Tight ATM-1S, AVM Ovation PA8 preamp and SA8.2 Power amp, Constellation Inspiration, Dn D'Agostino Classic Stereo, GamuT D200i, Hegel Music Systems H30, PS Audio BHK Signature 300, Triode Corporation TRX-M300, Zesto Audio Bia 120
Regretfully some more mainstream names were not included which came to mind such as, BAT, VAC, Pass, and perhaps a couple more.
My question here is which ‘current production’ amps in this MSRP financial ball park would be on your short list were you shopping for new amps, or are in your present system?
Valves Solid State, hybrids, integrated, or Class D which are not speaker specific, requiring high Eff speakers or horns to work well.
Let’s include current production amps which are near the upper and lower limits of the spread, so if in your opinion there is an amp at $8 or $9K which out performs those costing more, or is even on par, in your opinion, plese feel free to mention it or them.
All amps must be at least in production now stereo amps. If they can as well be run as monos, fine enough, but let the price range of more or less, 10 – 15K dictate your ascertions on two channel amps or twin monos which would land in or near the mentioned boundaries.
Here are some I feel should be among the TAS list but were not, in no particular order:
VAC Signature 200 iQ Stereo/Mono - $14,000 This one is here on rep and new technology in the bias circuit alone. Have seen no reviews, and I have not heard it. It does offer itself as a mono if an uncle or Aunt dies and leaves you an inheritance.
Balanced Audio Technology VK 76SE stereo or mono $13,995.00 2ch price I previously owned BAT vk 60 and found it very acceptable. Also in mono, see ‘inheritance’ above if twin mono setup is desired.
Balanced Audio Technology VK-655SE $16,500 (well, it is within a grand or so of 15K and BAT has strong performance heritage and very good secondary market presence. Also, didn’t want folks to think I was biased to tubes only) I’ve owned BAT VK500 BAT pack, and loved it. Purely musical with control and finesse. A tick or two on the warm side. The latest iteration scales up the power and refines the voice, if the reviewer isn’t deaf. Once more offered in mono config too.
no inheritance on your horizon? Perhaps you can get pics of BAT Execs with tempestuous farm animals to negotiate possible lower price for twin mono setup. lol
Members have been kind enough to clue me in on brands I’ve no EXP with but are noteable very worthy entrants to this fold of high performing amplifiers, ether as stand alone 2 ch amps, monos or one box solution Integrated amps.
Allnic, Burmester, Nagra, and more were identified as solid choices capable of propelling an upscale audiophile system. All have models that can land beneath the $15K more or less upper limit and can drive the majority of loudspeakers..
Sliding these into the financial confines discussed here is more trying but there are models which can be fit into it.
Nagra for example has a SS amp entry, and Burmester from a couple of online articles have indicated has a couple models, one INT and a 2 ch amp that easily comes in under the wire.
If anyone have insights on Allnic, Nagra SS, or Burmester amps particular voicing or presentations it would be immensely appreciated to hear your thoughts on any or all of these brands.
wolf_garcia > Dennis Had Inspire "Fire Bottle" or "Hot Rod" amps are hand made, sound astonishingly good
blindjim > THX – is he still making stereo or mono amps, or just HP amps? I am a card carrying member of the “if’n I ain’t gotta pay mo”I don’t and won’t feel bad about it! Club. It is exactly like COSTCO or SAMS, ‘cept different.
I do have to admit this caveat I’ve found often very true, more money invested into amps always equates to increased levels of performance, subjectively speaking and to a point of course.
Less frequently, yet still valid, boutique high end audio amp makers can and do produce and establish immense value into their products by virtue of price considerations. Designing, producing and marketing all done on a ‘cotttage industry’ format.
There’s a perennially inherent argument on price and performance with everything in audio. Even debates on actual validity of certain approaches, or products’ sincerity. Truth, snake oil, or Magic Elixir? Maybe equal parts thereof?
Reputations mean something in audio. It seems to me that they must.
All in all, this thread was generated by these guidelines predominately affixed to cost. Apart from as you stated about Dennis, the $10 to $15K region for amps should put son one right at or a bit into the threshold of less good stuff coming from this point onwards. At least in 2017.
Thanks for the insight on the head Hot Rod amps.
One infrequent and unique situation arises in a lifetime which enables one to reach out and grab more than they ordinarily would be able to grab, perhaps.
So on ‘Rep’ alone, at this particular instance, I’ll reiterate the question to illicit more input on
Which power amp or amps from Shindo, Ayon, Audio Note, or Nagra could you live with indefinitely?
Dennis Had Inspire "Fire Bottle" or "Hot Rod" amps are hand made, sound astonishingly good (at least mine does, and I doubt I'll ever sell it) and cost a staggering 1500 bucks or so. Perhaps one of the best amps that is currently "sort of" available…Ebay only it seems unless sold used elsewhere, and subject to Dennis cranking one out from time to time (he also sells headphone amps elsewhere so he has to make those things also). Is a Shindo better sounding? Do they know something about amp technology that Had missed? I doubt it, but there never seems to be a lack of noses people need to pay through.
@bo1972 : Btw, in this world exist no 2D, all is moving and happening in 3D plus time.
You are very good making spitches and I think that all of us deserves an additional one and not dead silence. Your customers will appreciated that. Dead silence does not helps to you.
Btw, for you " trial and error " is forbidden but I think is a very important part on each audiophile learning curve. With out that TaE we can't learn. As a fact you already passed through it and you stay there even today. You quoted:
"""
Audio by trial and error is one big laugh.
You need to use the same music over and over again to compare amps, sources, cables, loudspeakers, conditioners, systems, and all other parts in an audio system to compare. """
what are you doing with all those comparisons?: TRIAL AND ERROR. So I have to think that you are laughin on your self ! ! !
That every one learning curve is developed in the knowledge of MUSIC too when through our life attend to different kind of MUSIC events, live MUSIC.
Following your quotations:
"""
When I ask people who also work in audio; Can you tell me how we can experience emotion during listening to music?
Most have no idea.... """ obviously you neither.
"""
Thanks to research, we know exactly which brands and products can build a deep and wide stage. Because in this part the Pl-500 can take a large distance .... """"
that confirm your " trial and error " research/work. So you are laughing all the time, good.
You choosed that speaker design that comes between other not so good atributes with a manufacturer spec that says that the frequency response deviation level is +,- 6db, this means a swing of 12 db. Don't you think is a " little " high to achieve your Tru-Fa or is because that spec you achieve it?
I have to say that over the posts I read from you the only one that makes sense and that I'm using for some years in my self test/evaluation whole proccess/method is this quotation, good for it:
"
You need to use the same music over and over again to compare ..."
Waiting to have a dialogue with you.
Btw, as you noted I'm really not questioning asking for facts that can prove what you said. I'm only telling you why is totally wrong.
Every day is a learning day for all of us and I have this kind of attitude.
Dear @bo1972 : Reading to your posts here and else where I can think that you are totally convinced on what you spread over the net where inside your " stage " I consider no insults for me as a music lover and audiophile.
Now, from your point of view you are totally wrong due to your very high ignorance levels in music and audio ( the years of experience you posted and according your posts means really nothing for us but you. ) due that you start from false premises and I will try to explain about:
first MUSIC, as a part of world arts as: paint, poetry sculpture, etc., develops in an intrinsical way EMOTIONS/FEEELINGS per se where 1d-2D-3D-nD does not matters at all. Power in that kind of art is inherent no maters if we are listening a live event or through a vintage walkman. MUSIC brougth to each one of us ( in different ways. ) memories/feeling s and every kind of emotions and that’s why is considered ART.
second, in audio we try to listen what is in the recording and this means what recording microphones pick it up. Normally those microphones were located>/position in a near field of very few meters and almost never at usual seat positions of the people attends to a live event in a music hall or in a night club or what ever. When any one of us attend to a live MUSIC event and be seated at nera field: 2-3 meters from the MUSIC source what we can detect is the direct sound with out that 3D you talk about. If you seat at two meters from a horn/trumpet player you will know exactly what I’m talking about: exist no 3D you can detect. Period.
Even in recordings by Three Blind Mice label the microphones are not at 2 meters but almost inside each instrument ! ! ! NO 3D can developed.
So and considering these true facts your Tru-Fi is a TRUE-FALLACY and nothing more.
Speak of 2D electronics/speakers is just a fallacy because that concept just des not exist. Exist only in you wrong FALLACies due your wrong premises you are using as foundation.
But you have several other terrible misunderstood about MUSIC and audio and I give you three examples with:
"" Diversity in sound (layering) is the most important part what gives us humans emotion during listening to music. "" false, part of your fallacy.
""" Please bear in mind that the midrange area is the most important frequency range of any loudspeaker. Because here it is where the magic happens of the music. """
plain wrong: MUSIC frame resides in bass and high frequency ranges. MUSIC belongs to those frequency ranges not mid-range one. Just imaging piano instrument with out left-hand or the Niagara falls sound with out its marvelous bass range.
Bass range quality level is what determines the quality of the midrange levels and not the other way around. Is that frequency range the more important issue in any audio system: bass range.
Reading your Monitor Audio speaker review confirms your high unknowledge levels about when that speaker was choosed by you to promote it with your customers ( because I understand you are an audio seller. Sorry for your customers where you takes advantage of their high unknowledge levels in MUSICaudio. ):
Well, in those speakers high touted by you things are that the speakers croosover from bass drivers to mid-range ones is: 460 hz ! and this per se is a terrible design mistake and the worst of it is that you support it and touted it ! ! ! and I know for sure you have no idea why you are absolutely wrong and I will explain it:
What does that means ?, well that those bass range drivers has to reproduce frequencies/harmonics from 22Hz to 460Hz. With that kind of frecuency range here exist a huge Intermodulation Distortion levels that put it’s " color " on the sound reproduction and far away from a decent sound reproduction.
You have to imagine that those woofer/drivers has to reproduce, at the same " time " example: a 30Hz frecuency along a 350Hz frecuency: here is where exist that IM that gives heavy distortions in what we hear ( there is no perfect driver: moving coil, electrostatic, ribbon, etc.. The speaker designers has to choose the best " trade offs ", but the distortions are there. ): less clarity, less resolution, less precision, less natural balance, less pitch, les, less, less......., and this is what we are really hearing: LESS MUSIC. The long woofer excursions with a 25 hz frequency makes that a 450 hz frequency been out of precision/clarity because you can't stop suddenly the woofer excursions to handle higher frequencies.
If you read any manufacturer specifications on their speakers they never " write " the value of the IM or harmonic distortions, they tell us the frecuency range and how is flat on that range but never " talk " about distortions.
So how is that that MA seakers are so good ? ? ? ? only in your fallacy audio world.
Additional that passive speaker design is a ported one that means too higher bass range distortion levels. Higher than with sealed designs.
In the other side if you and your customers wants to listen TRUE-FI ( not your true-fa you gave them. ) the only way to achieve it is that the low bass range be handled by a pair of active/self-powered sealed design subwoofers integratedb in true stereo fashion where we have several true facts/advantages you can’t even dream in your wrong fallacies:
- better quality low bass ( you can have at least one more octave ) and mid bass ( quantity? : you choose it: volume/gain ) ). Now we can heard the " foundation " of the MUSIC ( and its harmonics ) and this single issue is stunning for the pleasure to hear any kind of music. Now, we are nearest to the " real MUSIC ", nothing less. Lower DISTORTIONS all over the frequency audio system range.
The first time you can hear the subwoofers right blended on your stereo home audio system: YOU NEVER COULD LIVE WITH OUT THEM AGAIN, ANY ONE CAN, period.
- An improvement in the soundstage reproduction in all parameters: deep, front/side location, wide of the stage, etc...
- the main speakers amplifiers works best ( less distortion, more headroom, less chance of clipping, less amplifier stress, etc...) with out to handle the frecuencies range that now are handle by the dedicated subwoofers amplifiers. This is important for an SS amplifier but for the tubes ones is a must.
- Now the low bass frecuencies are handle for a dedicated driver that was build with specifics characteristics to work in that frecuency range and this low bass driver is matched with an amplifier ( self powered subwoofers ) that was build with specifications that mates excatly what the low bass drivers needs about: frecuency response, output impedance, damping, power, etc..... You can’t ask for more!!!
- Not only the IM distortion goes down but the harmonic distortion of the low driver of your main speakers goes down too, Btw, the whole harmonic distortion goes down, because ( in the case of my Velodyne’s less than 0.5%: with’s yours? ) ) the harmonic distortion of a well self powered designed subwoofer is usually " very low ". This means ( again ) less coloration: MORE MUSIC.
Now, that ligths-on all the frequency ranges are in harmony and MUSIC now has its true meaning and shines as ever before with power and a rythmum that's hard to explain it: we have to live it, to experienced.
Your fallacy is a mess nigthmare. No passive speakers can’t do it and does not matters with whcih " 3D " amps you are mating it. Got it?
As everyone of us you are part of the corrupted AHEE unfortunatelly you belongs to the " dark " side.
riaa_award_collectors_on_facebook > ACCUPHASE E-600...Grey Market direct from Japan is less than 8K. USA version is about 13K. Cant believe it wasn't mentioned already.
Blindjim > Grey market? Its all cyclical. Accuphase was very popular years back.
Hddg > 1 Triode; 2 AVM; 3 Constellation. I use Gryphon Mephisto mono, incredible stuff. from $1 to $25k, I would rate the Coincident 211PP Dragon MkII as unbeatable purely for sound, without a single hesitation. …. ridiculous to state such things without knowing the other associated gears
Blindjim > I am immensely grateful for the thoughtful post. Truth be told, the eventual outfit and the initial one may be quite different. Albeit, initially whatever amp will connect to a BelCanto DAC 3.0 > Thor TA 1000 MK II line stage pre w/NOS RCA & Amperex tubes > ?? amp > ?? speakers > DD 15 sub. Micro Pearl IC > HT Magic II IC, (need another IC) > SR Sig 10 active bi wire spkr wires. Various Voodoo Elrod, and Shunyata PCs, PS Audio & Running Springs haley pass Pwr Cond. Sound Anchor 5 shelf damped rack various iso footers Current room dims ar 14 x 20 x 8 – 9ft vaulted cl. Spkrs on short wall. 3 20A dedicated ckts. Upscale outlets. Gear is in separate room. Only spkrs and sub in listening room.
On matching amps to spkrs or spkrs to amps, both paths are arguable. This time I’m pretty open to whatever, provided…. The system yields as much reality as is possible across a whole bunch of genres of music. Likely no duty as HT mains. Amps in the area this topic indicates. The confines are NOT cast into stone, but are what I believe should work pretty darn well towards delivering it given the spkrs on the short list: In no real order they are: Audio Physic Avantera Acoustic Zen Crescendo II Coincident ?? Daedalus ?? Endeavor E-3 Eggelston Andrea III Focal Sophra iII Harbeth Monitor 30 or 40 v2s Paradigm Personna ?? Sonus Faber Amati Futura II Vienna Acoustics Clint series ‘the Music’, horns Horning ?? Classic Audio Reproductions Pure Audio Project Volti-Audio ?? There ought to be a winner in there somewhere. Many will ask for more powerful amps, barring the horns, I suspect many would run on more reasonable powered amps 100 – 200 tube watts or 200 SS watts or more..
The DAC will be upgraded for sure. Though not right off. Shortly after a spkr and amp lands and are both run in good.
I must say, based solely on articles, and former member’s consel, I’m really wanting to get a pair of Vienna Acousti ‘The Music’ spkrs. But their reported demands . on power give me some pause as he and many others have said, feed ‘em lots of watts +/- 400 ‘good watts’. His room and mine share similar dims.
They also will bar or vastly limit my application of a tube amp, which I seem to prefer of late. But it is all about the resultant sound.
randy-11 > does lacks some humanity mean cold, analytical?
Blindjim > good question!! Usually, cost itself dictates the level of expectations on its performance barring supreme over achievers.
In your list, i would go first Triode, second AVM, third Constellation. Benchmark would crush a lot with regards to price, but lacks some humanity. I use Gryphon Mephisto mono, just incredible stuff, but in the range from $1 to $25k, I would rate the Coincident 211PP Dragon MkII as unbeatable purely for sound, without a single hesitation. But it is a bit ridiculous to state such things without knowing the other associated gears and operating environment, etc...
Nkonor > blindjim, Thanks for intervening. So.... Demo pair / Pass XA 160.8s which I consider the "sweet spot" -- 18k
Blindjim > I;’ve heard a few of these amps, though likely not the point eight versions. Nice amps for sure. I don’t feel inclined to go that way however.
Nkonor > I am still waiting
Blindjim > I think that ship has sailed. Hoepfully.
Stevizzy > This thread is giving me a headache. Blindjim > put the lime in the coconut … or perhaps just take two aspirins and call someone in the morning.
Blindjim > or merely ignore the insanity. I can’t change it if I don’t see it in myself.
Stevizzy > unfortunately the audiophile addiction keeps me coming back for another fix 😥 Blindjim > sounds serious. I’d prescribe music at regular intervals. If it persists, get tickets to an acoustic concert, indoors, dark, and with very good AC.
As for the thoughts here on some of the integrated amps in current production, I’m leaning hard towards that concept. Albeit not as ‘the’ solution, but simply ‘‘one’ way out …’ as Greg and Duane would have said.
It seems a lesser costly investment which would enable a better crucible for auditioning of up or down stream gear without a tremendous investment. Naturally, it would need to be a quite good INT that demonstrates substantial value and performance. An over achieving product. Period. The office coud use such a thing going forward. Or could another room.
One item a member pointed me towards is the combo unit of exogal Comet DAC/Pre + Ion amp. $8k
the Comet arrangement seems the more likely prospect. It and the Wells. Though there are a bunch of them about worth owning for long term I suspect.
Flexibility of the ??? INT would be a serious consideration, not just that it has a nice or very good DAC on board. An optional upgrade path is for sure, a bonus if available.
stevizzy, I’ve got a solution to that problem that works every time and it’s free. If a thread starts giving you a headache or increasing your stress, stop reading the thread.
I am still waiting for you to post at least one (1) Tru-Fi system and pictures of it and your room.
I do not think that @bo1972 will be doing that anytime soon, if ever. If he did, he'd have to contend with the group challenging him on his "facts," which he appears to be unprepared to accept.
Whoa. I nearly suffocated wandering thru all the smoke and flames!
here's a thought... maybe ignore input outside of the topic might be a good idea?
bo1972 I would remind you to actually read the topic! This ain’t no disco, this ain’t no foolin’ around…. It is about compiling a list of above average amps that cost above average American Dollars.
so, what amp or amps would you want to see on this account? wow. And I thought I was long winded.
bo1972 says: Audio by trial and error is one big laugh.
Apparently, you Moses, Edgar Case, and the amazing ‘Kreskin’ have something in common if you have never used trial and error in building an audio or video system..
bo1972 says: It is like an addiction for me, it is never enough and I always want more and more. Yep. Professional help is out there for just such maladies. Even across the pond which, is where it all began I think. Duct tape also works wonders.
BTW…. I’m still waiting on that list of which amps accounted for in this thread are the lesser, “2D” products. Your input would be invaluable and save lots of people lots of money if only they knew which ones to avoid buying! Maybe the makers of these amps would like to know as well.
As for the Pass labs note…. I know several folks who own various versions of these ‘.5’ and later mono blocks. They are in varied systems, rooms and drive several different speakers. Most I have heard. None of these outfits could loosely be appraised as truly non dimensional.
Maybe, another refresher course in English might help you convey your thoughts more accurately, as something is being lost in translation I think.
Again, the idea here is to submit thoughts on which amps you know of that could or should be observed if one is looking to spend $10K to $15K or so on amplifiers.
So far, its all a ton of rhetorical regurgitated fluff. Sheesh.
At the risk of this input being lost by virtue of the previous flames I have discovered yet more amps to include here as I said I would earlier in the thread>
These amps should definitely be in the or ‘a’, conversation.
There are As well Inbtegrateds and 2ch amps previously listed, which can be bridged or merely reconfigured into mono operation that is of course if, the secondary amp is added at greater cost. like…. ModWright Instruments KWA 150 Signature Edition Amplifier $8495 De0vialet 200/400 Integrated Amplifier/Streaming DAC $9650 – this amp becomes a 400wpc pair of monos if one desires to spend more and is the most interesting power plant on this list due to its operation from the computer network end of things.
… and Just beyond the $15K upper limit which was broken a while ago…. Pass Labs XA100.5 ($16,500), Luxman M800-A ($19,000) Constellation Inspiration 1.0 ST/Mono $20,000 We’ll assume these and the rest mentioned herein are all, “3D” capable amps.
Oddly, the apparent tilt here thus far, is towards switching, class D, and Solid State power, yet makers like Atma-sphere, E.A.R., Conrad Johnson, Vacuum Tube Logic, and others produce contestants for units which should be represented on this assortment of premium power plants. Perhaps they will be inserted in time to accompany VAC and Prima Luna, previously named.
Speakers require different criterias of consideration as ‘esthetics’ and fit to the room are as important as is their coherence, cohesion, and presentation across the entire bandwidth and how well or adept they accuit themselves with multiple musical genres.
Amps however usually don’t carry the warrant for cosmetics speakers will. The only ‘fit’ required will be purely proper electronic matchingup and down stream, and signal integrity. It follows the voice or ‘signal’ delivered to the speakers if it is not abused or deteriorated during its construction and conveyance, it has to be appraised as honest.
I noticed years ago, and feel it has changed but a wee bit that with a few specific electrical stipulations, once one crosses the $6K or $7K threshold, one could actually put names in a hat, pull one out and live quite well thereafter regardless the selection. Barring jumping the bar into higher priced amplifiers. It seems especially true for SS fare of equivalent amplitudes.
Today, despite one notice I saw which reported the audio world prices have decidedly diminished, and I do beg to differ, thoday’s ‘threshold’ for where audio excellence begins to thrive is after one has two digits in front of the comma and just after the dollar sign, more than less. Exceptions do exist and why this thread is promulgated.
The names, of course, have been changed to protect the guilty.
Only astute system mating and a fair bit of luck, might reduce the amount of outlay needed for competent signal conveyance and strengthening by securing an overachieving or high value amp. RWV
Once more, in the ‘post bail out’ era, a choice of which particular ‘difference’ one is willing to buy remains the fundamental obstacle. One satisfactory tact is to buy two completely different amps entertainnig two quite different systems. One aimed squarely at euphony for Johnny Hartman, Louis & Ella, or when Felonius Monk or John Coltrane visit, and one targeted at honesty and integrity for those instances wherein you want a Whole lot of Rosie, or when you want to ‘Jump, Jive, and Wail’ with Illinois Jacquette, or Goodwin’s Big Phat Band. Naturally, much musical common ground for either sort of design exists.
The vast majority of power amps in the five digit arena, and quite close to it, have remarkable integrity and meet the audiophile ‘bar’ of demands for bandwidth, imaging, tone purity, speed, etc., exceedingly well. IMHO.
Picking numbers out of a hat anymore will not cure the audio affliction. The angst, passion, and adoration reside in their desparities, not in the argument for ‘best’, as within this elevated neighborhood, audio excellence has been liberally spread about and the synergy of the system will yield the supposed ‘best’ award on individual basis, and is an avenue littered enevitably with pleasure and pain. The latter is the thrust of this topic, so others might avoid to much of it.
... and yes, I'm heaed for an 'on & on' meeting asap.
In Plain English; which you seem to have enough command of to understand that a lot of us are on to your nonsense and would like you to stop posting it here.
Your posts are an insult to All in this community.
OK bo1972, we get it. You are listening on a higher plane of audio than we are. No, audio is the wrong word, a higher plane of music and emotion. You don’t need to explain that to us anymore.
Tell us who you are, what Tru-Fi is and where we can hear this 3 dimensional music and emotion. That would be helpful and appreciated.
I am not trying to argue with you. I would like to know how to get 3 dimensional, more emotional sound, but your posts aren't helping.
When I use the words; they think like a child I mean that they say things what comes into their heads without a good foundation.
We create sound and don't sell boxes and products like the most people do.
My biggest passion in life is music and I want others to have the same level in emotion and intensity at their house.
Trial and error has proven that it seldom makes people happy for a long period of time. It also proofs that hoe ineffective the endresults are.
People who don't want to read this, will have the need to make remarks. It is that predictable.
I spoke with many people who also work in audio about trial and error. They all agreed that it is rather ineffective. What do you wan to hear? The truth or the thing you would like to hear.
If you are in the last part you never will reach the level you would like to get.
"BO1972 you must be quite a site at audio shows to be giggling in the back of the room at setups established by proven professionals in the field
And now the real facts. In almost 20 years we often asked to manufacturers and distributers simple questions. They were not able to answer.
I will give you a few simple examples:
When you create a loudspeaker who is able to create a wide and deep stage. It would be normal to use an amp and source what can create it as well.
Many systems these days on audioshows have a very limited level in diversity. When I talk to distributers and clients they all react the same way. They all miss the intensity and emotion of music.
There are so many examples in the last 20 years where people were using 2-dimensional amps and sources.
Loudspeaker who are not on the same line and with a different level of how they inward the speakers are common these days. These are only the basis parts.
It depends in what you want to believe. I aksed many manufacturers if they have any idea what the properties and quality is of their competitors and other parts in the systems they used at shows.
I was surprised that often they had no idea. You don't understand the real meaning of insult. Creating the highest level in quality for customers is the most social and honest way to do audio.
Manufacturers have to do it the same way. Many audio systems at shows are being created on political choices. I met different manufactuers who were honest to admitt this.
When you want to give consumers a higher level in sound quality you need to change audio as it is done at this moment.
For example: the CES this year was a lot smaller than in 2016. Many people are often dissapointed in shows. So when you want the next generation to be interested in audio. You need to give them a higher quality than what is there is at this moment.
I hope people in audio will learn to look further. It has notnhing to do with insult. When you think it is based on that, it proves how limited the people are who feel it this way.
Our goal is to give more people a higher level in quality and emotion.
S.A.P.-measurement will create a good result in each single room. Even in a room with the worst acoustics I ever heard we had great results.
"The facts proof that Pass Labs is incomplete regarding Tru-Fi...Each Pass labs combo of power and pre proofs that the individual focus of instruments and voices are not that intimate...And proofs that people have no idea what the properties are of the products they used.Many demoes proved that voices and instruments were way out of proportion...have to admitt I have to laugh a lot during shows. For me they are often like little children." BO1972 you must be quite a site at audio shows to be giggling in the back of the room at setups established by proven professionals in the field who are focussed with the solitary goal of making their Music Reproduction Systems sound as accurately as possible under show conditions which of course most audiophiles understand are not ideal conditions and nor do they accurately reflect the conditions most common in the homes of those who have Music Reproduction Systems. You mention all of these proofs that you have and that you giggle at "children" who do not work in Tru-Fi but I notice that you do not share your "proof" here in the group even though you have promised many times to share that proof regarding Tru-Fi in Music Reproduction Systems so until that proof is shared with those here who you instruct I am afraid that many will not believe in your proof which I think is most unfortuante for all because I do think you are on the right track in working with properties of Music Reproduction Systems.
When you have no idea what the properties are, you have no idea if a combination is the right one. It always will be a gamble.
You only can make the right choice when you understand which properties you need and own.
I give you one example: I own Pass Labs monos and poweramps for over 8 years of time ( and the Pass Labs pre amp XP-20 for 2 years). The facts proof that Pass Labs is incomplete regarding Tru-Fi.
I also explained this to Desmond Harrington of Pass labs. Each Pass labs combo of power and pre proofs that the individual focus of instruments and voices are not that intimate and realistsic as in real.
You can change that by the right properties of cables, source and other parts. But......when a pre amp is superior in individual focus of instruments and voices, the level in this part is improving a lot more.
Desmond told me that the .8 series whould have a much better individual focus compared to the older series.
Almost all demoes in the world with Pass labs are done with the wrong properties in amps, sources and cables.
And proofs that people have no idea what the properties are of the products they used.
Many demoes proved that voices and instruments were way out of proportion. Beside this mistake most people have no idea how you can create a higher blacklevel and how voices and instruments gets a shape like they own in real.
I have to admitt I have to laugh a lot during shows. For me they are often like little children.
I always had the freedom and options to test and compare for almost 20 years. The first day I started to work in audio in 1998 I wanted to know why the stage and sound is what I hear.
I have done thousands of tests in audio since and I still test a lot. For a perfectionist I need to know what new products and systems do. And what the DNA is.
There is only one thing that counts. I want those products which own the best DNA in each single price level. 2nd best is only for born losers. Same about lower than 2nd best.
Audio by trial and error is one big laugh. I can proof over and over again based on facts how limited the endresults are.
It has nothing to do with personal taste. There is no single person in the world who will prefer a sound and stage what is incomplete and can create a lower level in emotion.
You need to use the same music over and over again to compare amps, sources, cables, loudspeakers, conditioners, systems, and all other parts in an audio system to compare.
It is like an addiction for me, it is never enough and I always want more and more. Creating an even higher level in quality and sound is a part of my life.
When you think and work in patterns, you can create a higher level time after time. It never stops.
Brands and products of this brand often have the same kind of DNA. These properties have an influence in the whole system.
The main reason why I stopped in 2009 to sell 2-dimensional audio were the reaction of women.
I did run an audioshop from 2007-2009. I had a big demo room. I had a 2-dimensional and also a 3-dimensional system always ready for shootout.
I learned that when the same music is being played in 3D, even women start to like audio a lot. Women have a better developed hearing compared to men. But when a man comes home with his new system, his wife is often not that interested.
Neither any 2-dimensional system will be liked after time. Not even for men. Each single 3-dimensional system will be prefered by each single person.
I had the same reactions over and over again. It was nice to see that women use the sets of their partner. Quality and emotion works for women a lot better.
When an audio system owns all the parts on which sound in being build it will be prefered by each single person.
Beside this I created so much effort by limiting smog, high freqency noise, magnetism and other parts. I also did a lot of reseach on the electricity.
Now we do many different modifications to create superior amps, powersupplies and sources.
People in audio were not able to look further. Only when you look further all the time you will find many answers and solutions to solve and improve quality and realism.
We also have ideas to use conservatorium students to show to people how voices and instruments really sound and how small and direct they are.
We want to show people how impressive an audio system can become when you work by Tru-Fi.
That music and audio is all about emotion and realism. We call it sound&vision 2.0. It proofs how much more effective it is over any audio system what has been created by trial and error.
I call trial and error in audio the level in thinking and working of a child. This is based on the fact that there is no any foundation on how the system is being created.
When you have no idea why the stage and sound is what you hear, there is no foundation at all.
For me it is very easy to explain and demo why Tru-Fi is superior to any trial and error audio system. The sound always will tell the truth. This is what you hear and what you get at the end.
It not outperforms any trial and error system by personal taste. No..... it outperforms it based on the level in emotion, details and intensity. This proofs that audio has nothing to do with personal taste.
In januari 2016 it took over 1 hour before a client of mine could proof to me that taste does not exist. It exist, but it does not garantee you a higher level in realism and a better sound.
He owned a system of 85000 euro when I met him. He owned different parts before his latest system. All his parts he choose by trial and error.
My client said: the system I own now which is being created by Tru-Fi will always outperform any system I can create by trial and error.
The sound and level I own now is so much more realistic my client said, intense and emotinal compared to any system I ever owned.
He almost only plays classical music. He said; my new system sounds like the way I experience classical live music. Many of my clienst use the word; addictive.
When an audio systems owns all the parts of Tru-Fi it creates a level in sound and stage what is so intense. You want to continue listening to music all the time.
All the systems I created since 2009, proof over and over again that they are used a lot by the cleints themselves.
The time has come to show that audio has come to a superior level in emotion and intensity that it will be used so much more than any trial and error created audio system.
The best and most convincing sound always will win in audio!
bo1972 “Your list contains many 2-dimensional amps”.
Really? Which ones?
BTW, how did you decide who is 2D and who is 3D? it’s a pretty long list. It must have taken a while to figure out who is what?
Et al., I’m adding lots more soon. Stand by.
My exp says the room, the speakers, and their placement, and the listening position all matter as to dimensionality. Indeed, even the wires connecting them all together matter. Isolation and power line attendance, has great merits too. Everything matters and the key is always to get everything to play well with others, respectively. This includes me, and the ‘room’.
bo1972 says: “There is one important fact and that is that people who spend a lot of money on audio for a long time never were that happy with their system.”
I believe it runs deeper than that. Restlessness, and perennial discontentiveness point to more serious concerns. Add on greater financial ‘means’ and its gonna dig itself a very deep hole with time.
One thing which is irreplaceable here is experience. Listening to junk in one’s own home, in the main system, is substantial. Even crucial. So, despite the extreme audio nervosa candidates roaming around, I do envy their experiences, though not the trek itself.
With but very limited means, it took me many years to get routine satisfaction from my ‘then’ foremost rig. I watched as others here and elsewhere accumulated and rearranged systems much faster, chronically bringing in gear I’m pretty sure I’d have been elated to have owned.
Only curiosity begged me to deconstruct that outfit, and build one on a different format using tubes as control and amps rather than purely SS or mixed.
Moving up the audio ‘food chain’ I found there was indeed a reason why there is more expensive gear afoot. Its often better. In most respects. Not merely different takes on the same theme, though that occurs too and is IMHO, the sole caveat to this hobby..
I’m not much on the audio pilgrimage. I’m more about ‘being there’. Consequently, once arrived, I can and will dig it as is, for a pretty long time, or until things actually need replacement… ala, tubes… or from sheer boredom, tweaking what is tweakable. Footers. Wires . to some degree, perhaps. Room treatments. Otherwise, the junk I gotta plug in or keep connected, which is providing the foot tapping and knee bobing will remain in tact.
But that’s just me. This aspiration is not my ‘end all, be all’ in life.
Well, not any more. lol
stfoth Bo=The Cooler.
ROTFLMAO
bo1972 well, OK. Hmmm. IMO, its all smoke and mirrors. Way more different than better out there. Trying to perfectly recreate the ‘live’ venue, or recording event, like many movies, requires my ability to syspend belief. Often.
Depth of a so called sound stage is subjective. From where to where? How deep is deep enough to gain the perspective needed to continue an illusionary presentation?
I’ve seen bands working off a 12 x 12 foot pedestal in various places. Years ago. Saw a prominent rock star sitting on a stool in a bar playing a box guitar and singing. There weren’t much depth to that situation. Although later, he and I had a couple of beers at the bar and talked some.
One rig I had began the sound stage right besides or just behind my LP, and it spanned rearward of the speakers by what I ‘imagined’ as six or eight feet.
I never got up to measure any SS I was listening to, many of which were not nearly as deep, broad, or individually spot lit as when some other recordings allowed them to be.
I could care less what the dimensions were. Suffice it that there was actually an obvious ‘illusion’ that the presentation covered geography more than laterally just in front or in rear of the speakers was fine by me.
Being enthralled by the sound takes far more than how deep or wide, or tall the depiction of the recording is while its on display in my room.
One can not fault amps alone for what one receives as the presentation. Regardless. Unless of course the electrical mating of the equipment contained in the signal line somewhere was or is poor or questionable.
Poor matching of gear electrically is the main reason for failed or lack luster sonics.
There are numerous factors to contend with in garnering the “Acquired Illusionary Reality” from the trinkets and gizmos we want to possess.
It is simply too naive to think the end product is the amps perquisite .fundamental, chore, alone.
If it were so, we could just buy some minor league speakers, pitch ‘em into the corners of whatever room, turn everything on, and prepare to recover jaw from floor!
there's way more to it than one link in the chain.
When you don’t understand how instruments and voices sound in real and how they are projected into space, you don’t understand audio.
The facts proof that many loudspeakers, amps, sources only can create a 2-dimensional stage. This means that there is less than 1 metre of stage depth.
simple question: since when stand people playing instruments and singing on the same line or only with 1 metre in depth?
This is how insane audio can be.
The great thing about voices and instruments in particularly they have a lot of diversity in sound. But when you hear to most amps and sources, they often own a very limited level in diversity in sound.
When I ask people who also work in audio; Can you tell me how we can experience emotion during listening to music?
Most have no idea, this is a main reason why many audio systems at audio shows sound a lot different compared to how music sounds in real.
Diversity in sound (layering) is the most important part what gives us humans emotion during listening to music.
Your list contains many 2-dimensional amps. I can 100% garantee you that no single person in the world will stay happy wiht any kind of 2-dimensional audio.
This is based on the fact that the human emotion will be less impressed by any kind of 2-dimensional audio.
When you compare music with a 2-dimensional stage to the same music in a 3-dimensional stage, the difference in how it effects your emotion in huge.
Because with a 3-dimensional system the music becomes more intimate based on the space around singers and instruments.
For the money you want to spend on an amp it would be insane to buy any kind of 2-dimensional audio. I talked to so many people in the last years about their systems.
There is one important fact and that is that people who spend a lot of money on audio for a long time never were that happy with their system.
This can be explained by the fact that they only had 2-dimensional systems.
Yep. Saw that post. Saw too many Rowland owners do love those Rowland amps. Nearly pulled the trigger on one of his preamps years back, a ‘‘capri’ I seem to recall. Could be wrong. It was a while ago. Before I got the Thor line stage.
tpk123 Hegel H30 or Hegel H4SE The latter is 9.9/10ths of the former
appreciate it. I’ll see what I can glaen off the web.
respected_ent Gryphon Diablo and Boulder 865.
thanks Ed. I’m liking the press on your picks. Hearing any of them beforehand might be an issue however.
In the [past rigs Ive owned, I was able to acquire a strong degree of Illusionary Reality. Which is IMO, when you’re reaching for the virtual autograph pad to get an artists signature as they stand before you singing or playing. Much depended on the recording of course and it took a lot of matching devices, upgrading gear, and wires too. This inference occurred with lesser priced fare than I am researching presently for the next experiment in loosely controlled lunacy.
My preffs? Organic. Natural. Detailed. Extension, speed, engaging, and dynamic. The arrangement one simply finds very difficult to de-energize. My aim is not to have an outfit which lessens my CD or Disc library so only very well done recordings are suitable for playback in it. Definitely, there are some dsics which are simply trashed and only suitable for the desktop speakers, some discs, I’d not play even there. Going back into the 50s and 60s pop or 70s rock veins eras only nostalgia keeps me clicking onto their tracks.
With such a listing of exceptionally well regarded power on tap in this thread alone, and a number of prime vintage options always about, the only major concern is what will the squeakers be? A short list of current candidates I think was already included in this thread. Few if any will require high degrees of WPC, and an upper limit of 200 or maybe even 300 should be plenty. Albeit, this too is in flux, so who knows what’s to come in as the squeaker du jour. They surely will not be panels, or dipoles. New ones, hopefully. Pre-owned units ain’t out of the question though.
ca couple spkr choices could do very well on 50 - 75wpc.
Hidden costs are sure gona suck as traveling is just about a certainty, unless some magical thing happens nearby. Still, there’s a road trip coming up I’m pretty sure. The question is ‘how long of one and or, how often’?
And right there sports fans, we can vividly see the perennial major ‘drag’ in this distraction.
Would have said ‘devotion’ but wanted to be cool and casually unattached..
another item which has begun to intrigue, is what I'm seeing on some of the very well done Integrated amps showing up in this list. having around a super nice secondary power supply is not a vrey bad idea at all.
Simply forgot. The Jeff Rowland 625 S2 has to be considered. Legendary designer with build quality and sonics taking a back seat to no one. Rowland guys keep their gear a very long time and for good reason. Jeff is a genius and truly great guy. An American legend like Dan D'Agostino. No one will never regret purchasing from either. These aren't empty boxes like some I know.
4425 Thanks for the clarification. I thought I was right. D' Agostino is a name I’m familiar with. I read it as “Agostino” instead, and that threw me some. My first enjoyable amp was a Krell KAV 250. Thereafter its preamp mate.
Yeah, hard charging pitches concern me but they are amusing too. Well, to a point.
Its all about the final ‘fit’ in any case… how deep are the pockets and one’s own preffs.
IMHO, although an ultra end INT is a viable option, likely as not, I’m leangin to merely an amp dual mono amps, or possibly even pure monos.
Given this list, and watching input and output impedances, plenty of the items on this list will work in numerous applications/configurations. Only presentation andpower demands of the speakers in mind will dictate which way to go now, and or, eventually. This is despite many amps listed herein are the so called ‘destination’ amps… or could be. Really? If but $5K is the available outlay for an amp, a $5K amp is indeed the ‘destination’ amp. Thanks much, J
Audiotroy Hi. TA has more than enough press in this thread. It’s a list, remember? There are still others which ought to be here but are not quite yet.
As for diminishing returns, which is what aI alluded to putting TA at it’s threshold, I felt it was obvious price doesn’t always equate to performance or improvements on performance. Price isn’t even going to deliver exactitudes in presentation. Merely differences thereof. Subjectivity accounts for which is best or acceptable and remains a personal choice affected by a lot of other factors.
RE Reviews My inference here was anyone who has a remarkable inventory available at their fingertips, IMO, ought to spend time illuminating or supporting others experiences by jotting down thoughts on the technical and practical side of matching components and developing suprising outcomes.
As stated, even a little information makes things more or less attractive. Sheer speculation, and no practical info does nothing at all.
Put some energy into imagination and provide some windows for others they might not usually see.
EX:.” At what level of expense in the amplifier can one obtain ‘pinch me’ its that real presentation, with say, Personna 5 or 7Fs which aren’t getting tons of press just yet. Or with Legacy’s? or with ??? speakers.
EX:, which tube amps and or which SS amps and at what WPC outputs? Do single ended triodes have enough juice to push ??? speakers to satisfying levels provided one is not insane? Etc.
EX: Is the proposed $8K diff from the Para 5F to the 7F entirely justifiable, or will using a ??? amp on the 5F in a ??? sized room do as well? ETC.
I don’t presume to know your inventory, or I’d offer better suggestions. Maybe simply elaborate on things people don’t expect which are affordable tweaks or upgrades one should put on their lists if they don’t already know.
In short, follow a some what more altruistic path. It always pays off.
pfglhe why? thanks. a lot. Do you have any links to articles on these items?
Jim I can assure you there was no secret agenda in regards to the review and Mr. Taffel keeping the equipment for a year.
Many reviewers take 2-3 months to write a review and in this case he treated each of the two products as separate reviews so taking six months to a year is a bit long but not insane.
The how and why Mr. Taffel wrote what he wrote is up to Mr. Tafflel.
The facts with this line are the facts everyone who reviews the gear goes bonkers over it, so either there is a massive conspiracy with T+A buying reviewers or the stuff is really that good.
Robert Harley stated that the PA 3000 CD is the "best SACD source he has heard."
Mike Lavorgnia in Audio Stream compared the DAC 8 DSD to the DCS Rossini, and the Total Dac which are extremely expensive digital front ends which he did prefer but it was how close the little Dac 8 sounded compared to the big reference digital front ends was interesting.
Allan Taffel similar $120k worth of CH vs $18k T+A and not hearing much qualitative improvement.
Positive Feedback comparing a $45k Dagastino vs $21k T+A again same thing, double the money not any real improvement
Musifx a Audigon member bought a T+A 2500r integrated not from us by the way, and was thrilled with the sound and he preferred the T+A over a $12k Pass Labs integrated.
We never did product reviews on the review side if you think that we should we will be more than happy to write a review, l believe that all these professional reviews are stating the facts about this line.
As per reimbursing someone for visiting our shop from another state if they were to make a purchase we would be more than willing to do so.
As per being on the threshold of ultra high end T+A is not on the threshold it is ultra high end gear, but priced at much more moderate levels, every reviewer seems to say the same thing, that if you compare T+A to the most expensive stuff out there ie the Solutions, Dagastinos, CH Precision, you are going to have a hard time justifying spending double or triple the money so you could kind of say that T+A is a value oriented product.
If you look at the size of the company they have the advantage of buying in bulk as well as producing all the components including the cases in their own factory, this brings down costs, T+A is a huge company in Germany compared to the rest of the high end audio industry.
We do recommend that people purchase from their local dealer whenever possible. T+A is just getting reestablished in the US, after a few missteps with distribution, T+A is now going direct to the dealers without a distributor via T+A USA and a new marketing plan.
Just to clarify on Agostino gear. Dan A was the creator of Krell and the designer of their very best creations. He started his own company a few years back with his latest designs being under his own name. his products have been acclaimed worldwide. Take a look at his website. Not to be critical at all but if the company is not familiar to you then you need to continue researching before making a decision. Dan D' Agostino is very well known in audio circles. Also be wary of heavy sales pitches on unfamiliar gear. Absolutely no reason to go there.
Focal + Simm Audio? Hmmm. thnaks very much. very much indeed. I'll look into those SAM 700 articles if possible.
audiotroy OK. We know now a little more about TA as a candidate for powering a system. Thanks very much.
where are your own first and generated posts on gear. Reviews? Comparisons? Given AD ‘experience’ at least in the office, if not at home, should yield other’s enormous amounts of articles and accounts on gear which seldom gets press, or ears on it.
Or accounts comparing various gear in various applications. Now that info might be very helpful. To members, and for sales in general if one happened upon a reasonable costing outfit which provided realatively enormous performance.
It might could save a lot of time watching daily what is being posted and commenting in every thread about it. BTW, Folks here do check out the user review sections.
.I’m old, and obviously old school with many things and I see integrity as fundamentally integral for any source I would begin to entertain appreciation of their consul.
For a moment, I would ask you to turn things around. Slip on another person’s shoes and then look at your posts thru their eyes.
Don’t you feel the possibility of an ulterior motive can or may exist in a reader’s mind when a dealership is both providing input, and invitations to audition in the exact same breath and when ever they post??
Simple passion? When said dealer’s post pervade countless threads? One can’t be hiding behind ‘simple passion’ as their impetus.
Passion of the purest variety must be restrained or it becomes not passion, but obnoxious,.
Its akin to the helpful neighbor who constantly knocks on the door bringing info you may or may not need or want. Or news you already have noticed. Now and then the interruption or inference is fine. When it is constantly or glaringly repetitive, despite its value, it becomes untoward.
As for who sells what… I’ve been in and around electronics, service, repair, and sales on a private and professional basis for decades. As such, what lines of equipment I or the company I worked for could or would carry regularly depended on more than merely what we felt we liked, or what we felt was the best in its genre. Just ‘cause we dug it, didn’t mean we could bring it in and sell it. Not every time.
There is more going on behind the scenes than merely wishes and wants. Though the dealership is not going to let all that hidden business info become public for obvious reasons.
Manufacturers also have certain requirements for their merchandise to be offered up for sale. . sometimes we could not carry a line of goods due to the goods maker’s requirements for +1, +2, or more pieces inventory, advertising, floor planning, etc.
Some brands are well, let’s say, ‘promiscuous’. They’ll let anyone sell what ever of their line in any fashion, manner, or without further dictates for making available ‘all’ of their products in house or at all. Around here I see regular building contractors adv’ing major known brands of equipment for sale, but they don’t often have any on hand to show or demo…. But they can get it. Some have a piece here or there though often disappointingly setup.
Some brands, regularly do not have any concern for anything and every device arrives F.O.B. or on a 30 day invoice. its yours now. Sell it or use it as a boat anchor. We got paid! Bye!.
Huge grain of salt… I’ve yet to meet the dealership or store, that can or has cherry picked the whole of high end audio and heard them all, each and every one and is now selling the absolute cream of the supposed, ‘crop’, ‘best of the best’, we are the only place anyone needs to shop and all other stuff out there is not nearly as good’, etc..
Or, a shop that wil take whatever back when or if, the unit does not work well in someone’s system after a couple months of in home listening..
So when I hear a dealership say certain things, I must admit it often feels tainted. Merely disclosing the fact of dealership, does not dispel every suspicion, et. All. Or its implications.
AT did not say exactly what you posted that he said in the article, regarding not being able to decern a difference between the CH or Golden gear and the TA INT amp..
AT said he found them sounds extremely similar. Not identical. He goes on to point out some of those diffs.
Two things arose from closely reviewing that account: 1. The input impedance of the TA INT is printed at perilously low input impedances at the end of the TAS review it says: 20K SE and 5K Bal.
2. throughout the article AT opines the TA Disc/DAC as the source. Having the gear in his words “for a year”, and intimating he owns obviously more expensive, and sundry or similar devices, why was no other sources influences or outcomes contained in the description, beyond the obligatory few words. Likewise with speakr reflections?
The entire TA account could be construed as a rave or apology for kidnapping gear for a year before returning it if one is avidly paranoid, given no erstwhile rationale was handed down as justification for the prolonged endeavor..
Other sources have praised TA gear. Fine enough. Its on the threshold of Ultra high end equipment, along with a growing number of applicants. Some are mentioned in this thread like Gamut, Wells, etc.
“There is no replacement for experience.” Regardless where from it springs. Its true. The issue IMO is coloring it by offering up invites, or auditions with business doing’s inferred. This is in lots of cases, violating territorial restrictions which makers or their distributors demand sellers maintain to keep profit margins up across the sales network. If ya live in GA. Buy from GA, and not from N. J.. unless it can’t be helped.
And there’s the expense of travel too. I just went to D.C. on a business trip for two days. Watching out for expenses, my tab was right at $2K, or a tad under for two people, round trip, eats, cabs, and tips..
Isn’t N.Y. & N.J. on par with D.C. costs? Will Audio doctor reimburse those traveling expenses? I haven’t seen mention of that aspect yet in any AD posts.
We post about the same model a lot…. There’s always gonna be FOMOCO, Chevy, ‘Cuda or ‘Vette lovers around. Everyone has a favorite this or that model or brand. Its only human nature. With just limited experiences in audioland, one finds out quickly there is no “one size fits all” device for every instance in any system. So let the ravers rave, and the ranters rant. People are usually perceptive. Or will be soon enough in this hobby where loads of $$$ begin changing hands for routinely variable unknowns. Just best guesses.
The issue is putting part A onto part B. what will happen? What if Parts A & B are put into a different type or size room? Its all far too variable and complicated for anyone to say they know even predominately what will take place in every instance of component mating.
Its always best guessing till the rubber meets the road, and usually then some.
Last year I was searching for a high power integrated amplifier in this price range to drive my new Focal Sopra 2 speakers. Although I love the sound of Audio Research tube equipment among others, I wanted something with less heat and the tube maintenance requirements. Several excellent amps mentioned in this thread were on my short list. When I heard the Simaudio Moon 700i ($14,000) with my Sopra2 speakers I found exactly what I wanted. It has the power, sweetness, incredible detail, and the "you are there" sound of live acoustic music. The build quality of this unit is second to none and rarely seen in audio gear these days. Inside it's built like milspec aerospace avionics, the casework more like fine jewelry than audio gear, but without looking too gawdy like some audio gear these days. The sound is just beautiful without imposing either a "tube or SS" flavor on the music. It sounds like real music, not a HiFi and just reeks with understated elegance. Great warranty and Company to deal with. Best investnent I've ever made in Audio Equiment. A Classic Amp !!!
An observation is based on experience, and in this case we have tested many different brands of electronics before we selected the T+A gear.
We were first criticized for not telling people in our posts that we are dealers, we initially didn't list any affiliation, now we list our affiliation in every post, the same way that others dealers also do, and other people also commented that it is only appropriate and now that is also an issue.
Most dealers don't buy products that they don't believe in, and we looked at most of the top tier electronics lines, if you want to see all of our reasons why we passed on D'agastino, Pass Labs, Vitus, Ayre, Sim, Krell and Levinson, please PM us and we can go over it.
The reason we went with T+A in the first place was Allan Taffel's review in the Absolute Sound, where he compared the T+A integrated amplifier an $18k product, to $120k worth of Swiss gear, and Mr. Taffel was having difficulty determining which he was listening to. In our mind, wow when did you ever see that?
After reading this review we contacted the importer and got to test this gear for ourselves, believe it or not the T+A was even better than the Thrax gear which is unbelievable gear we were also testing on both our Polymer and Paradigm Personas, we tested the top of the line CJ gear and the T+A was better, we compared the T+A to $120k Krell amps and MBL amplifiers and the T+A was better.
The Positive Feedback reviewer compared the T+A integrated PA 3100HV $21k vs the $45k Dagastino integrated amplifier and the D'ag unit was't better, different but not better.
When you add it all up, for all the reasons we have mentioned the T+A gear is something really, really special.
Sorry if we come across strongly with our love for this gear I would also say there are other posters on these forums with thousands of posts on a certain brand of speakers that post over and over again about how remarkable this product is and nobody makes a peep.
4425 Thanks. “Agostino”. Wasn’t that name aligned with Krell some time back? Designer? Sounds familiar. …and that’s the rub, right? Finding ‘mint’ gear, inside and out for decent prices. Its why I went here with current production components instead of a ‘keepers’ or ‘all time’ list. Regardless, nice amps remain good prospects for some time until they begin breaking down inside which can take lengthy periods enabling more to come by them and realize for themselves what a so & so amp was all about more affordably.
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