April 2017 review of the Paradigm Persona 9H A home run for Paradigm!

@contuzzi

The 9H? No I haven’t. I’ve heard the 3F, 7F, and B, and owned the 3F before selling them.

“Honk”  roflmao

You’ve never even heard them, have you?

@contuzzi

That’s mainly due to the directivity differences between the speakers, so obviously they will sound different. On-axis FR is almost identical, with the main difference being there’s an additional bump in the 500-1000Hz range in the Personas, which will give an additional slight "honk" to the sound signature.

Definitely not as forward.

The Personas sound nothing like B&W.  

Paradigm Personas have almost an identical frequency response to Bowers & Wilkens 7 and 8 series. It shouldn’t be rocket science to figure out what they were going for. It’s only odd because Paradigm’s last generation series were extremely neutral so it's definitely a change in philosophy for them.

I read this review and while its a great review there’s a huge amount of space devoted to oblique statements referencing a need for speaker manufacturers to include tweeter level controls al la Revel to tilt the top end up or down 3 db. And actually I will say the Revel control on the back of the Salon2s functions very well in that regard. So I think its a good statement to make independent of the review but there were quite a view veiled statements referencing the slightly hot tonal balance on the Personas. The speakers are incredible true I agree but I do wonder why Paradigm voiced them this way.  They measure in room (at least in my room) the same way they measure in the couple of reviews out there where measurements were taken. Of course its true that we don’t listen to measurements and I will say that they don’t sound as tilted up on the top end as the graph indicates. Still...you wonder why couldn’t that large lump centered around 10K be engineered out of this otherwise spectacular highly resolving speaker? And yes, so many of our rooms are a bit over damped or under damped and even with room treatment while we can try to address that it actually WOULD be nice if more speakers would come with a tweeter level control similar to what Revel/Harman/Samsung puts on the (overrated to me) Salon 2s.

A minor correction quoting Sanders:  "I don't understand why don't every one uses large mid range drivers (large electrostatic panel accomplishes this), active crossovers (I forgot few things he mentioned here :( ) and room correction, it is just physics".

Also want to state that I am long time Paradigm Studio 40v3 user.

Great post geek.  It's all physics and making sure your room sounds decent.  Then it's personal taste.

Pound to pound Paradigm Persona 9H will be similar to Legacy Aeris at 50% of the price. Both are serious about room correction but you also get a DAC and preamp for free, again at little more than 50% of price. Aeris has both a 4" Tweeter with 1" super Tweeter. Good engineering and some custom correction is need to make all the drivers sing at the same time in a given room so good to know both consider room correction seriously (Legacy does correction in more than one dimension, if I understand right). 

But yes price does not matter if you think Persona sounds way better than any other speaker. But at $35K+ there just just so many options. 

I personally liked Sanders system around ~$17k at RMAF 2018 for the price and what I can hear in the room. It just did not pass the WAF factor and also the limited sweet sport worries (frankly I always sit in the sweet spot so I don't care:), don't all speakers have limited sweet spot? anyways?. ). What Sanders said in person stuck in my brain, he said something like this "I don't understand why every one use large mid range drivers, active crossovers and room correction, it is just physics".

So yeah there is no magic or audiophool voodoo!, there are only trade offs and applying good science (called engineering). Bill @ Legacy is cut from the same cloth I think, so are many engineers who strive to build good speakers.

At anything above $10k I (personally me) would have a good return policy in place, just in case if you not fully convinced yet. Just do some extensive A/B testing if you can, like using same/matching electronics and doing simple things like SPL match before playing same tracks etc. And listen to what you like. Room and room correction can play a very big role, just be aware of it.

Just don't listen to anyones opinion(reviews) about Paradigm or other speakers. Listen for yourself and focus on controlled experiment(s) the best you can and make up your mind without bias and be happy with your decision.

Enjoy the music :).

Pass are excellent amps.  As for using digital or analog to EQ, I'm in the camp of analog still being much better.  I've personally heard some of the top brands that use DSP in one form or another and I don't like it.  I do hear the difference and it changes the sound and ruins coherency. I'm not the only one who feels that way. I've spoken to dealers, manufactures as well as reviewers who also feel that digital EQ still isn't where it needs to be. Kind of like the way it's taken digital formats to sound close to vinyl.  

I moved up from Treo's to Quatro's due to wanting the bass EQ.  I have noticed a huge difference in my room with the EQ.  

I personally (I've done this) go audition the speakers you like and go with them.  When I audition, I totally tune out the salesperson.  I ask them not to speak during my auditioning and to give me the remote.  Too often they will play with the volume during the audition.  I've seen that at MANY dealers and it pisses me off.  

You seem to have a really nice rig going.  I love the Aesthetix pre amps.  Just a great value in tubes.  I owned their phono stage when I was able to play vinyl.  

My feelings on the Persona's haven't changed.  I've auditioned them at many stores now and they have always sounded the same to my ears.  They, like other Paradigm's are tipped up on top.  I own a pair as I"ve said many times.  They lack coherency.  Every dealer always says 'you haven't heard them in my store and my set up is the best".  I went to Dave's and they sounded that same to me as they have elsewhere.  Folks can always say things aren't set up properly for whatever reason they want, but in the end, I've found that gear has a sound signature no matter the set up.  Many folks love a highly dynamic speaker like Wilson or the Paradigm's and that's awesome.  I say go get them and enjoy your music as that's the only thing that matters anyways.  

If you love the Paradigm's, then go for it and enjoy them, but make sure you listen to others in your range.  JMHO

I am interested in the Paradigm Persona 9H and am just wondering if anyone has any feelings about how they would mate with Pass on the power amp duties and Aesthetix on preamp duties (the rest of the system is a Direcstream, a microrendu and a nice vinyl rig). I’m thinking if anything the Persona’s sound like they would be a little clinical so maybe the Pass on the top end would warm them up a bit but obviously they don’t need that much power (its an x150.8 presently driving Thiel 2.4s.) Obviously I LIKE a slightly clinical highly detailed sound since I've been living with the Thiels about about 10 years. I like the idea of bass frequencies which you can room correct the same way I like the feature on Vandersteens but on the Paradigm you're dealing with DSP rather than analog eq.  Thoughts?

Old time audiophile here. IMHO there are many excellent speakers available for all kinds of tastes. I personally would not buy Paradigm speakers in the price range being discussed in this thread. A lot of guys that can afford a $35k speaker wouldn’t even consider them regardless of sound quality due to prior marketing position. I’m making no personal judgement but have bought and sold too much audio gear to be comfortable trying to resell them at some point. Just an opinion and nothing more. 

One things also stands out to me.  Often when any of us talks about how great our gear is, we will talk about how great a reviewer thinks they are.  Personally, I've known many reviewers over the years and some I respect and like. Even if my tastes are different than theirs, I get to know HOW they listen and can sift through that to figure out what my thoughts may be on the product.  

What I like about the personal audio folks is that their reviewers will say what they paid for the product or if it was given to them for free or at a steep discount.  That said of all the guys I know (many) who review there, they are as honest as the day is long.  They will point out where the compromises were made by a dealer.  They point out good and bad and let you make your choices based on that.

That used to be the way things were in the 70's.  The Absolute Sound never had to run ads. You just paid and got a neat little 'magazine' every other month or so I think it was.  Then all of a sudden other 'hi end' magazines came in and there were ads taken.  You couldn't find really negative reviews at that point.  Also, brands that didn't buy ads in various mags wouldn't get reviewed much of the time.  Some reviewers care about the hobby as well as the customers.  Fremer comes to mind as do a few others.

One of the reviewers, Tom Gillet used to drive me nuts.  He's a creative writers, but he also is the Audio Cheapskate, Sam Tellig (Gillet spelled backwards).   I laughed when he left Stereophile a couple of years ago and went public about how advertisers would pay for ads and they could get good reviews. Again, not ALL reviewers are like that, but this is why you never see a bad review in that magazine or any of it's online sites.  Heck the ad manager of Stereophile is/was Atkinson's wife.  

Again, some folks I personally like and respect, buy all too many I don't, but that's just me.  Reading this thread made me think about that.

This is why it's so important to go audition at a few places an figure out your flavor. What do you like? Dont' let a dealer talk during the audition constantly.  Listen and trust your own ears.  Afterwards, you can invite the dealer in and get their thoughts.  Listen with them and have them point out all the things they love about the product and why you should buy it.  Just keep in mind that you are the one who has to listen to it daily, lol.  I'm sure everyone already knows all of this, but it never hurts to read it again.

Uh..... Yeah..... This thread looks like the kind of vitriolic mess I'm apt to instigate. Somebody should have messaged me to join the party. 

When I was shopping around a year ago I thought the Paradigm stuff I heard was quite balanced and imaged well. I liked all their stuff better than the stuff they were competing with, and had I not heard the Focals I bought, Paradigms might be sitting here right now. It's a shame if folks don't want to take them seriously. Their stuff at least deserves a fair listen regardless of the price point. 

Not that that list put the argument at rest but when Audiophile compiled a list of 25 best speaker of all time Paradigm signature 8s were #7 and the list actually has all the usual suspects of exotics, and thats again the older signature Paradigms not Personas. Magico and Focal brag about having Beryllium tweeters and the persona has its mid range built of that material let alone the tiny tweeter. The high end audio sales people usual line when ask for picking a favorite among two or three comparable speakers is " they are two different speakers". You don’t get an straight answer not just because there may not be one, but because they don’t want to. When money is not an issue, you WANT to pay more, for bragging rights alone sometimes. If you already have spent money enough to buy a new Porsche, on a pair of speakers, you are never gonna admit that a mid level brands speakers are better than your exotics. You can hide the truth but you cant kill it. Lies, well you know how that work.
Will post my review after getting my new Personas, after not being satisfied with the detailed audition new B&W D3s and many other "high end"  (Audio Note, anyone) products.
Currently have Martin Logan and Paradigm signatures in a Dolby Atmos set up and yes B&W 800s used to be my dream speakers and I was reviewing Focal Sopras and Revel Ultimas ( undoubtedly worthy choices ) too but these new Personas came as a game changer.

Troy , you are a good guy and no dummy .
I sold Audio in early 70’s for one of the biggest dealers in USA.
For example, he was biggest Sansui dealer in the world .
He also sold TV and picked some thing new on the market, Apple Computers .
I knew audio was over when a yuppy couple asked me what computer should they buy for their 5 year-old .And they cost a LOT in those days .

The huge audio sales of the 60’s and 70"s were a function of what was" cool’ at the time. it was never about the music itself .
I doubt if 10% of the American public see music as something really important in their life and maybe 2% could not live without it . In the 30’s and 40’s I grew up in, radio was it , some form of jazz was the national binding material because there was nothing else. Still it was essentially social in nature .People had no problem in 50’s switching from big-band to garbage, in a years time it was gone from the airwaves becuse this IS a mass society, not a community .
Acoustic music fans are old, a rock concert is a social event not a musical
event , if it were the latter the audience would NEVER stand up and wave
their hands in unison , reminds me of a Nazi rally . People lack thoughts of their own, the void is filled by ones manufactured for them by others .. And they don’t even know it .

Thanks Shubert.   I unfortunately have to agree with you. 

If you look at the other side of technology, every year many people will ditch their 1 year old Iphone or Android at $600-800 or more a pop and replace it with the new improved models.

If you add it up many people spend $5k and more for their phones not including the $100-200 a month to use them.

Or how many kids have $5-10k spent on video games. 

We are doing a piss poor job of getting new blood in the industry.

Troy
Audio Doctor

Troy , as all you did was make my point, I totally agree with you .
And I do respect your posts .

P.S. For vast majority of American music lovers 7K is an obscene amount to pay for  speakers .

Ctsooner,  I am happy to see we do agree on that. You also seem like a passionate guy who loves his gear and after reading some of your threads I agree with some of what you say.  

There are some terrific dealers out there, and some where the people are nice but their setups are just okay and others where the sound is just plain lousy. The point I was making when you mentioned hearing the Personas at another dealer was how their setup and matching equipment was totally different then ours, and perhaps you would have a different take on the speakers after hearing our setup, I also said maybe not.

Personal taste is just that, personal. I am also not saying that the Personas are the greatest speakers on the world. 

What I have said is that the speakers can and do compare with many of the best products out there and in some ways transparency and holography may outperform some of the other brands in those areas.

You have also seen how we were attacked by a certain member for saying that. 

Several members who heard the other contenders agree with us and subsequently bought the  Persona speakers.

Personally I don't care if someone likes a different product than what I am representing, what I want is for someone who is considering making a purchase find a dealer hopefully a good one and get a demo of these products and be open to exploring something new which may be better and perhaps be even a better value. 

What I said in one of the other threads, was after finding the T+A gear which was compared to the crazy expensive CH Precision gear, by the TAS you would think that some of the members would have expressed interest in finding out where they could hear that product.

To date just one guy is going to hear the T+A stuff after reading our posts, and for the record that guy is in CA for we are not benefiting.

If that was me, and someone told me there was an amp for $19k expensive but somewhat doable, that compared to $120k of very respected and very expensive Swiss gear, I know I would have been on the phone the next day to find out who in the country sold that product. 

Can you imagine how dull the industry would be if no one championed these new and sometimes better products? 

To wit if you have been following these threads you will see some of the remarkably incendiary comments directed at me and the product. 

It is this small mindedness, and brand snobbery that gets my goat. 

Since I have been going to the Audio Doctor shop since the late nineties  they have had a number of great sounding reference speakers, Dave moves into and out of brands in the pursuit of the best possible products, and I am sure if he could find a line that represents better sound quality, engineering and fair pricing he would add that line as well.

I know it seems that I am pushing hard, you would push hard, in the face of being attacked by a certain member, that doesn't like the store owner, because he dared to "sell to him at a show and that same guy is pissed at me because I invaded a Wilson thread." 

As per invading that thread, I made one comment on how the Personas would work well in his small room and save the guy $20k and I got lambasted for that, that lead to a lengthy exchange to support my position and to support my friend. 

What is refreshing to see is how we have gotten support from a number of people here who are understanding our position.

There is a tremendous amount of negativity and brand elitism shown on these threads. 

People shouldn't care what brand of gear they are using it is the sound that should matter, with that being said, what we are being guilty of I have seen other members spouting the same rhetoric about the products that they endorse, over and over again.

i look forward to meeting you at the shop someday and we can finally play some music together.

Troy
Audio Doctor

Troy, I understand your point. Yes, Matt loves the Davinci as well he should.  We each know how the other hears and speak often as you know.  He has great things to say about you guys. I know that who ever his sales guy is went out of his way for him.  Yes, any piece of gear will sound different in any system.  Set up is critical as is the room.  I"ve always said that.  Your set up may be the best and I'ms sure you have spent a ton of money on the set up based on what you have posted.  I'm not fighting with you or saying that the speaker isn't great.  Yes, I love the Vandersteen sound when set up properly and not so much when it's not.  I do know that I've always liked them in any of the rooms I"ve heard them so far and that's a lot of rooms.  I was like that with Avalon back in the day, but couldn't afford them at the time.  I'm picky as heck. If I have to add that much stuff to my listening room to make the speakers sound like I want them to, then I'm out.  That's not a cut as many who can afford a 30k plus speaker can afford to redo their rooms.  I don't have  dedicated room, so the Paradigms just aren't for me.  Again, not a cut at all.  

I was pulled into this thread without knowing about it or wanting to know about it, so I have expressed my views.  Will I come down to listen to your gear in your shop?  If I have the time of course I will. The next stop in Jersey for me is Matt's and then to a reviewers home (can't turn down invites to hear gear that I may never get to hear).  I love your passion for your store and your products, but to be frank (not trying to be a jerk), it just seems like you are pushing too hard.  The number one point you make we TOTALLY agree on is that folks need a good dealer who they trust. They then need to LISTEN and not sit and talk during an audition (when I do this I really after the fact that the system never drew me into the music, so I talk).  Then they need to trust their own ears and make the decisions they make.  Again, I"m not trying to put anything you have or do down as I don't want to be that guy, even though it's hard sometimes when writing opinions.  Thanks Troy.

Shubert,

As per any of the bigger makers making anything they want that isn't true, the first issue is intent, the second is engineering prowess, and the third is having the budget to spend the money on R&D, just because a company is large doesn't mean they will go to the elaborate steps that Paradigm did to produce the Persona series which cost $4million dollars in R&D funds. 

Sony is a very large company way larger then Paradigm, and their reference speakers were rather tame in terms of pushing technology and they were also around $30k a pair!

The Paradigms Persona series will play whatever you want through them they are superb speakers that are  totally neutral. They will ultimately sound like whatever you use with them. 

Do they sound good for rock, yes they do as the speakers play loud with out compression, however, we play Jazz and classical on ours and they sound great no matter what is depends way more on the gear you are using and the music you are playing on them. 

The speakers have tremendous resolution so garbage in garbage out. 

Paradigm's loudspeakers have always been able to play loud and have been known for good bass and clean top end.

I would say that the lower end Prestige series is more like what you describe but not the Personas.

As per grabbing the wall street money, the Persona series starts at $7k a pair so that is what we would say affordable for a lot of music lovers who don't work on wall street. 


Troy
Audio Doctor

Paradigms were always voiced for rock , a wise market strategy.
Any of these bigger makers can make anything they want, Paradigm just wanted  to get some of the Wall St bubble money while the getting was good .

Dear Gabmetz, Thank you and you get it. Incidently I agree with you, we had the $120k Kharmas in our shop, as well as the Polymer Research MKX-s quite amazing speakers by the way, we also sell the Kef Blades.

Ctsooner just because you heard them at Bernies in Newington, doesn't mean anything, it means you don't like what you heard at Bernies, it doesn't mean you won't be amazed at hearing our setup or maybe not amazed but you may find that our setup is one of the most realistic systems you will ever hear and that is without first order slope speakers or you still may not like the speakers as much as your beloved Vandys. 

What I said in another post was the boss, Dave drove out to another dealer to hear the speakers and was not impressed with their setup, but he heard their potential so he took the leap of faith and ordered a set.

Everyone's setup room and gear are different, our room is 26 by 20 with a 10 foot ceiling, I stopped in to that dealer you spoke of many years ago to check out their Magico setup and I don't think they had one large sound room in their entire facility, many dealers don't. 

We are using $50k worth of T+A electronics, a Light Harmonic Davinci, $35k, a Baetis Music Computer, $15k and all Enklein cables prices vary, our room features Shakti Holographs, Acoustic System Resonators, Echo Buster Pannels and Stein Harmonizers to name a few of things we are doing to make the speakers perform optimally. 

We got a demo of the Isoacoustics Gaia and they were amazing and made a huge improvment. 

So you have to understand my point which I have made many times before each dealers setup is different we tried a lot of good electronics including Conrad Johnson, Devialet, Electrocompaniet, Thrax, Chord before we found the T+A gear was better then all the rest. 

I don't know Bernie and I am not saying he is getting the same sound better or worse then we are getting, I recommend that you finally come here and meet with Dave and myself and hear our reference system for yourself.

Your friend in NJ just purchased a Light Harmonic Davinci based on one of our setups in his home, we don't move into new lines casually, we test and listen and test.

We did compare the Davinci to EMM Labs DA2, the Berkly Reference 2 and a DCS Rossini,  and in our demo system the Davinci was much more musically satisfying. 

Troy
Audio Doctor

I agree that we all hear differently and like different speakers and amps etc...  That's a given.  I too have heard tons of the speakers spoken about on the boards and personally have my favorites (not only Vandersteen's as some think, lol).  I was one of the first in the US to hear the 9H's (at Bernie's in Newington). They weren't burned in as it was the first stop of their US tour.  I then heard them again a few other times now as many are starting to carry them.  

They are nice, but for ME don't compete with a few of the speakers I like that cost a bit less, so they wouldn't be a starter.  I have heard them burned in and set up properly in a good room etc...  When folks ask me what speakers they should go listen to, they are on my list as there will be some who love the sound of them.  I'd own them over some of the big name speakers that are in this range and above, but there I PERSONALLY don't see them as punching above their price range. Again, that's my personal view and there are many who feel that way.  Conversely, I've spoken to a few who love them and may purchase them.  I guess that's why I like the net as I can speak with others offline about our hobby and it helps me keep an open mind on components.  

We all are passionate over some specific brands. Some, because they sell them and make a living at it. That doesn't mean they don't truly love what they are selling.  I am one of those who doesn't listen to sales folks IRT how anything sounds.  Never have and that's why I go listen to as much gear as I can.  That doesn't mean I won't start with what a dealer will say, but I can't tell you how many folks I see in stores being led around like lemmings by a sales person in auditions.  

With that said, it doesn't matter as long as people are happy with their decisions, but based on the used market, I don't think that's happening as much as it should, but that's just my opinion.  I'm glad sales guys are on the board posting. Heck, I have learned a few things about my Ayre QX5/20 by a sales guy in Chicago and I've never met him.  I've shared things with him that he didn't know and hopefully he's been able to use that info to help others when guiding them to purchases.

I think when sales people post on threads like this with strong opinions on what they are selling, there will be a large contingent who are skeptical and will call them out depending on how they purse their responses.  I do know of a few dealers who use shills to help them sell and it's too bad.  Some of us post about favorite dealers we know and use.  I post often about Rutan in NJ, but I love Mike at Suncoast in Sarasota and I have done business with Ralph at Take 5 in New Haven since opened in 78.  I love Bruce at Stereo Unlimited in SD and few can set up a system like Joe Heusi in Houston.  There are many more I like and respect and will send folks to for auditions.  Only two of the ones I mention even post on boards and when they do, there usually isn't a firestorm like this thread has become.  Just an observation and neither negative nor positive.

Wow... I don't even know where to begin. Why can't everyone accept the fact that there are different speakers for everyone.  There is no such thing as an end all be all speaker.  What's even more comical is people bashing speakers they have never even owned or based on brand name alone. I've been in the audio industry for 18 years and I've heard every speaker imaginable. Paradigm makes a damn good speaker and the persona is a statement piece that DOES compete favorably to speakers in a much high price bracket. Attacking people because they believe in them such as Audiotroy is kinda crazy. He just sounds like a passionate sales guy who actually believes in what he sells. I respect that. I haven't read one of his responses where he hasn't invited someone to just listen to them and judge for themselves. I've owned Rockports, magicos,  focal, revel etc but guess what I have in my listening room? A brand new pair of Persona 9Hs. Why? Because they sound better to me! Sound is so subjective.  Everyone has their own likes and dislikes.  I've never heard a speaker at 35k that sounded better to me. As a matter of fact I've never heard a speaker under 100k I've liked better. I've heard them all... that's my opinion. I don't care what logo they have on them and why should I. We buy speakers for their sound not their logo. Most companies logos are meaningless anyway (klipsh, definitive tech,  polk) to name a few all started as good speakers that sold their soul and now are mass market junk that are no longer engineered and voiced by true audio guys (Sandy gross, Matthew polk, Paul Klipsch). All these personal attacks on people voicing their opinions and displaying their passions need to stop. We are all adults and should be able to discuss grown man toys without the non-sense. 

I really don't want to get into a pissing contest with you, but your response to a simple question, which IMHO is way over the top, is why you are getting dinged by numerous posters.

one of the keys to dialog between people of differing points of view is that each listen to the other. We all know your point of view regarding the Paradigms--you have repeated it without much change in many of your responses. I heard it loud and clear, so please no more. 

However you seem to not hear the way you are pushing this point of view is upsetting many, or if you do hear their message, you seem not to care how repeating yourself will influence how they react to you.

Also, Cordesman is listed as a senior writer, not Editor in Chief.

jay

The reviewer is the editor in chief. The review was an unquestioned rave and the speakers the 9H was compared to were the almost twice the price Magicos and the Legacy Aeris about $10k less.

We are a Legacy dealer, and will be getting our display pair of Aerius later in the Year, We have heard them at shows. 

The 9H is a much more holographic loudspeaker with greater clarity then the Aerius, if you are looking for a gigantic sound with a warmer midrange the Aerius are very hard to beat.

As per why the Personas  weren't yet in the top 10 who knows, except,that the top ten may have a lot to do with how  many other reviewers have heard the same speakers with the Persona series being so new it is doubtful that many other reviewers have spent the time with the product that Mr. Cordesman has.

The Personas were in the Editors choice issue. 

So who knows  what politics or policies these guys follow.

If by your questioning why they aren't in the issue as something is wrong with the product I can assure you the Persona series is starting to get raves reviews on all who hear them, they like all reference speakers will be subject to personal opinion and taste and because the speakers have such tremendous resolution will be more dependent on system matching then more recessed speakers or ones without this level of resolution.

The same argument can be said for those guys who love Raal Ribbon tweeters or JM Labs products or B&W Diamond series, whenever you have a speaker which had remarkably extended treble the speakers can sound terrific or bright depending on system matching.

Our Legacy Signature setup  for example is super musical not quite the same degree of treble clarity but instead a huge, warm, layered sound with just a bit less detail then the Persona sound which is  why they sound so appealing to so many people. 

So  again, it  all comes down to personal taste and system matching. 

The Persona series are remarkable in so many ways and will continue to challenge the status quo for now and for many years in the future.

Troy
Audio Doctor
877 428 2873 

So I finally got around to reading the review in their free (sponsored) recommended speakers for 2017. While the review was good, I couldn’t help but notice that the Paradigms did not make the "Top Pick" list for speakers > $10k. In fact a number of the speakers listed haven’t been even been reviewed in several years and my .02 is a lot of the same ones recurring year after year on the list. More to the point, I wonder if the reviewer is a lone voice regarding the Paradigms among the editorial staff.

No. But I would guess there are people out there that march to the tune of a different drummer, ah, er, speaker....

Guilty or zuilty as charged!!!! Are we having fun yet?

Audiotroy, so now you have resorted to calling people zealots???? Unbelievable.....

Ctsooner, I didn't say it isn't possible to make a good speaker using a first order slope, I said many engineers won't due to the multitude of problems inherent in a first order design as per expensive, it is is also expensive and in some ways more to build a steeper slope as you will need to spend more money on a more elaborate crossover with more elements. 

Any good engineer will work on phase related issues by tweaking their crossover slopes and by building in compensation networks, so you can electrically delay the summed output of the drivers to create a wave launch which will be close to being in perfect phase even by using a steeper slopes, and as I mentioned there has been a ton of great speakers that are not time and phase aligned or are time aligned but not phase aligned. So great sound is much more than just building a time and phase aligned design.

Our camp, of Paradigm Personas lovers,  including Tpinto, which is now an owner of these magnificent speakers,  is trying to raise awareness of how fantastic these speakers are and you said you heard them before, but not at our shop, so you may have a different opinion when you hear them at our shop. It took us weeks to get them sounding right, not to mention having the right matching equipment, I have no idea where you heard them and the competency of that store's setup, so why don't you come here and judge for yourself?

When Dave heard them at their first North American tour, he did not like them, either.  We discussed this matter at length, our choice to bring them in was that he felt they had potential to sound good,  this particular dealer only had mid priced electronics and cables, and did not clearly have the correct gear to present the speakers properly.

In all of my posts, I never said that the speakers weren't anything other then a contender and may do things as well or in some ways better than the other sacred cow brands. 

 When I related our experience in actually having some very exotic and expensive brands and products in comparison to the Personas's the thread broke up in a tit for tat between myself and another member on the Wilson forum who is not getting that this is how we test and how we know in our experience just how good the Personas are did we test them vs everything no but we have been around the block. 

What I was trying to do, was not to hijack that thread but to point out to the OP that there was an alternative that he should check out, that he might like and would work well in his room and cost less than an Alexia. 

So that is "selling" it seems to me that is about helping a guy to consider an option he wasn't thinking about. The only way that would have been selling if the poster was in our territory and visited our shop and then purchased a pair from us. I don't think that really happens much here as this is a big country, and Paradigm has dealers in the other states. 

By that same token all of you Vandy guys should have also chimed in on that same post, and let that man also know that he should consider the Vandy 5A as they also have room eq  and boundary compensation,and they cost the same as the Sashas.

It may be their size and shape that made the Vandys not desirable to the guy who bought the Sashas or it could be the sound or a zillion other reasons.

The fact are in and I agree with Tpinto, the new Persona Line represents some incredible engineering at affordable price points and should be auditioned by anyone looking at high performance speakers.

I know of no other brand to offer such advanced driver technology for a set of speakers which start at $7k a pair and that is just one of the reasons the Paradigms should be a must audition product, whether or not someone likes them better than brand x is up to the listener. 


My invitation stands if you want to meet me, our new friends Kuppe and Fixbin1, and Dave you are more then welcome and come to the shop and actually hear our setups, and to judge for yourself. 

Who knows you might actually like what you hear. 

As per selling on Ctstooner, I see your name everywhere clearly proselytizing the merits of Vandersteen and Ayre, either way you could be considered in the same way zealotry is selling, I would also think that from anyone seeing your posts.

You will also note that in any of my posts I have made it clear that I don't think Paradigms, ATC, or any other of the many lines of products the store sells are better, than any other brand, I said we prefer them and they may compete and in some ways may be better than brand X, while you clearly seem to state that like the great Peter Montecreif, all else is boat anchors, meaning that only Vandersteens are accurate and musical in in some way is a better speaker than brand X, Vandersteens,  are very fine speakers, some people love them and purchase them , while many other people  do not, they are not better than any other brand of speaker you may think so and that is your reality and your choice, the entire industry is made up of people who embrace Focal, Wilson, Magico, Monitor Audio, Spendor, and many other brands there are over 300 brands of speakers out there.

Disclaimer..... I am also a Vandersteen owner, but open minded enough to be able to live with a variety of different speaker brands.

tpinto59,

People  are on those "supposed" quality brands for a reason. That is, those brands have stood the test of time, are of quality build and have won accolades from reviewers and most important of the consumers who buy them. I'm not looking down on the Persona's as I have not yet heard them. The Persona's deserve a audition, not pedestal placement. I think you will get a better assessment of Paradigm''s new baby when it has grown up in a while. Then some years down the road you will know where they stand with the masses....

Glad you are happy with your purchase, but honestly, there is no best in class. Only best for whomever owns them.  That's the reality.  Looks too are subjective also.  That's reality.

As I posted on a Paradigm forum on another board, they are nice speakers.  I have heard them enough times to make a good judgment for MYSELF.  I'm glad they got a nice review, but just like reviews for Vandersteen's (my market winner) they are from reviewers in their system and should be taken that way.  It's a great start to a search, but a great review does not really 'validate' any component. We all want our own buyers validation though and it comes out in many peoples post, including mine.  That's human nature and isn't changing anytime soon.

BTW Troy, you really need to go back and read your post about first order crossovers.  A few of the things you say are true of them, but they can be done properly, it's just that it's so hard and very expensive to do.  Vandersteen, Avalon and a few others over the years have done a great job and not that the tech can support it even better, you can get some great speakers using it.  

Sell on as that's how your posts come across.  Sorry, but they really do and they don't have to.  There are many dealers who are on these boards and they aren't selling like you seem to do (off the board I've spoken with others who feel the same way I do, but they don't post and before you ask, only a couple own Vandersteen's or Ayre or Basis or any other gear that I love.  I actually told one to go to the local store here to audition the 9h's as he's in this price range.).  

Overall it's the best effort by Paradigm and if it wasn't for Vandersteen's, I'd have brought a pair home to see how it worked in my room even though my wife hates how they look (she want's zero drivers to ever show), but it's still kind of my room, lol.  

Wow! I purchased the Persona 9H speakers and their's nothing pretentious here. On the contrary, people best get off the supposed quality names of Magico, Focal, Rockports, and legacysetc. They might want to pay attention to what Paridymn accomplished. They are certainly  the new bench mark for their price segment, and possibly those other brands that simply can't out perform the Persona's. Either the retailer isn't carrying this incredible line of speakers, and bias to their brands or margins. Paridymn hit a home run, and not only in performance, but aesthetics. They have bragging rights and vanity is synonymous too. They will own this market segment, and steal from the higher priced segments. Hey, I'm just a music lover, my validion and accolades come from simply being a consumer. Do yourself a favor and listen to the 9H floor speakers. Honestly, a real work of art. I also purchased their bookshelves for rears......real music to my ears. The entire system including the center channel makes for a magnificent soundstage.

   To go back to the original question, I also read the review of the new Paradigm speaker. I have read many reviews written by Anthony Cordesman over the years I respect him very much. Having said that, just listen to your own ears and get the speakers that you like the best, and for a price that it is worth it to you. Then, be happy!

We should all be free to express our opinions

I think the point of the thread was to let people know that the review on the Persona's has validated what many people who have heard these speakers setup correctly already know. Paradigm has arrived in the uber speaker club and should be considered by anyone shopping for great speakers. 

As per a time and phase aligned speaker being the only right speaker is poppy cock, There are many engineers that will not build first order crossovers due to the intrinsic demands that they make on the drivers employing overlapping frequencies, and the power handling  demands placed on the drivers which then limit dynamics and causing greater distortion at higher spls, due to the greater bandwidth necessitated by these designs causing increased  heating of the voice coils  which adds distortion,  add lobbing effects lat the pass band,  and these kinds of designs also have serious trade offs to offset the advantages in just preserving time coherency. 

However, not all listeners are sensitive to time related effects and a rooms interaction with a set of speakers in terms of setting overall diffraction and reverberation times, usually create more adverse time related distortions than if  a speaker  better tracks a microphone because the wave launch of the drivers is all in phase, vs not being in phase in the first place.

In the annuls of audio you have had great speakers with all different types of crossover designs:

The legendary JSE infinite slope, the famous Spica TC 50 which combined a first order and fourth order crossover slope, The Infinity IRS, The Infinity RS 1B whiich employed I think third order and second order slopes. the Quad ESL, and ESL 63, The Wilson Watt Puppy, and many, many more. 

Stop the email, I mean, the forum wars!!

Should you ever listen to enough live music thru various Vandersteen speakers, you'll notice their drivers/crossovers are  Phase and time Time correct.  They are wired in the same polarity as the microphone. This allows listeners, especially me, a natural timing and feel for the music.

My take is that this is the way are brains are wired.  Conventional speakers certainly do their best from a tonal standpoint, but their drivers polarity are randomly pushing forward while their other drivers are sucking.  That's 180 degrees out of phase in the back direction and may explain why it sounds disjointed for me and others.  It's more then just a tonal thing, its the whole experience of combined efforts and pieces that work together to create a point source, coherent sound that is musical and has no smearing, giving us the micro and macro detail without fatigue.

        Thanks CT
                 

I haven't bought anything, yet.

I don't know how you could say the Legacy's are bright, the Aeris and the Focus use the same midrange and tweeter and they sound very Vandersteen like, big sound stage, warm and very liquid in the treble. So are you basing what you heard at a show or at a dealers, and at a dealers it would also depend on what equipment they were using at the Audio Doctor show room they are delicious sounding, and are anything but bright.

Maybe your are confused with the older models which do not use the newer Heil drivers?


As per the Paradigms not be half that of the Quattros, how can you make that statement, Cordesman said they are among the best speakers at any price,?

Perhaps you heard them with less than flattering gear, or the pair wasn't broken in. At the Audio Doctor showroom they were amazing, completely holographic, smooth, with great bass and thrilling dynamics.
They sound totally real. So could it be that your experience is very different based on where you heard them? 

As per Wilson's not being dynamic? What they are known for being very dynamic. 

Why don't you visit their showroom and see for yourself, I would be delighted to meet you there and introduce you. 

Did Audio Plus ever distribute Paradigm, I thought they always did Focal?

Thanks for the apology.  My phone and email blew up after it.  I'm not into promoting anything. Just love what I ended up with, but as I said, I get out all the time to audition.  At least once a week at various stores.  I will no long enter Lyric.

I objectively listen to all speakers that I can as it's my money and not Vandersteen's or Johnny's.  I have liked a lot of what I heard from the larger Legacy's, but hated anything below the Aries.  The highs literally hurt my ears in their old tweeter and the new one, although better to my ears, still wasn't sweet.  Heard them with both ss and tube gear.  Just not for me for the price.  I dislike the Focals that I've heard as they were more 2D than 3D if that makes sense.  I dislike Wilsons as they are distorted and lack micro and macro detail.  The new Paradigm Persona 9H's are decent new speakers, but for the 35k, they are not as good as my new to be delivered Quatro's for more than half that cost.  Something was missing and I don't know what it was.  The B&W 802D3 were too forward for my tastes and the Dynaudio (forget the name) were very nice. I liked that tweeter, but they lacked coherency for me.  They have a 55k speaker that I like, but I don't love the rest of their line.  Their sound is all over the place. I like the new Avalon's, but wouldn't purchase them right now for many reasons that I'd never share in public right now.  Salk makes a good speaker, but not as good as the speakers I like IMHO.

Again, I purchase as a system so everything I have goes nicely together.  Of most of the speakers I've mentioned, I have heard them in various set ups and or in various places (stores or folks systems).  I don't do shows as you can't tell how anything sounds there.

When I find a speaker that sounds better than the carbon fiber cones that Vandersteen is making in house and also implements them better, then I'll think about making a move again.  I just don't chase my tail.  

I own Paradigms btw and knew John Bouvier who is in charge of sales at Audio Plus Services when he was at Sennheiser, so it's not bias against Paradigm.  

I'm happy you like your dealer and your system.

Cstooner, I hope that clarifies my position, I thank you for your service to the country, and you do sound like a terrific and very interesting man.

I also must apologize if I mentioned your name without knowing you, I was just trying to make a point about some of the fan boys here.

I am not on anyone's payroll, but like you, I have never found a store where it was more about me, and my experience of having fun and learning about and playing music, never found that degree of civility in most of the stores, and I think Audio Doctor is unique place so like you I am vocal and I will try to promote them as much as possible. 

We should all just visit more of the shops and try to keep an open mind. I know how I like and what I like I am open to listen to and consider anything.  

Ctstooner I am glad you love Johny and love your gear, that is not the point, the point I was raising, is that there are plenty of guys on these forums that love their dealers, and are very vocal about their support.

And I am not trying to say anything other than you are friends with this one particular  dealer, the fact that he or any other dealer is doing anything for you because of it is between the both of you.

As I mentioned, the nice folks at Audio Doctor, treated me more as a friend then as a customer, and have been very hospitable, other then having Dinner there, I have been given the opportunity to hang out anytime and just watch a movie in their home theater room as well as spending hours listening to music.

All the New York stores seemed to be more with an agenda to make a purchase, then I have found with many of the NJ  dealers, high rents?

My point in some of these posts is not to denigrate someones choices but to point out as Troy did that we should all be open to the possibility of enjoying the sound and qualities of other products and you should be loyal to what sounds good to you and not just to a product.

What bothers me as I mentioned before is the narrow minds of some of the people on these forums.

I am a photographer I do not care which brand of camera I use they are tools, and over the years I have used different  brands and quite frankly I have never seen such polarizing views on brand loyalty as to what I have seen here.

To me there is no one brand that is better, I know you love Vandersteens, but how objectively have you listened to the competition, how do you know if you might not like a pair of similarly voiced speakers such as the Legacy's unless you have also gone down that path?

Like you I have my bias both pro and con to many of these dealers, I never felt warm at Lyric or Stereo Exchange, nor did I find great sound at either of these, I found Innovative also to be a bit on the weird side, l I did have a positive experience at Singer, I would not go there again, as their new store  is a shell of what they once were, and they have very little that I can afford that I think I would actually purchase, and Andy I know would not let me come in time and time again to just listen without making a purchase.

.

Wow, I don't even know where to start.  How the heck did I get pulled into this thread?  Glad I am Johnny's payroll. Sorry Johnny for buying my Ayre AX5/20 from Ralph at Take 5 in New Haven.  He's a GREAT dealer and a darn nice guy just like Johnny is.  Oh, I also got a small Linn system for the bedroom (hate it) from a dealer in Dallas.  Great guys all of them.  That was a year and a half ago.  Oh I forgot, I have recently purchased headphones at another dealer.  

My point is that you should never make a statement like that about me when you don't know me or anything about me other than some posts I make about equipment.  Like the owner of some dealership you have talked about, I've been in audio a bit too.  I've been involved since 1969.  I started my system early in life. I've been blessed to meet many great and some not so great folks in the industry. Heck, my ex was Mark Levinson's attorney many years ago.  I am in contact with many a reviewer too and know who I trust and who I don't.  There are some I like, but we hear very differently and like different products.  I believe in my own ears and don't need to go to dealers to tell me how great anything is.  Honestly, that's why I ended up at Johnny's and started buying Vandersteen's.  They sold themselves.  

The last thing I was going to even listen to were Vandy's as my old dealer I was loyal to sold them, but never had them set up properly so I never liked them.  I was closed minded.  Not any more. I hear a ton of gear as I travel and get asked to audition.  Heck, heard the 9H's the second day they made their NA tour at the Audio Store in Newington, CT where I grew up.  Bernie the owner is a GREAT guy and will also take the time to let folks audition.  See, again not working on Johnny's payroll or anyone else's.

Unlike many of the folks posting, I have no hidden agenda or any agenda other than have discourse and sometimes debate with some great posters and some, well.......

When you decide to make a post hiding behind a keyboard about someone you really should have your facts in order as that makes things personal. Talking about audio products is not personal regardless of how much we love what we own and listen to.  

I'm not made or hot under the collar, just stunned that my name came up in a thread by a poster who is clueless in making the allegations they have made.  It was just wrong and very rude.  

From now on, just email me to let me know when you bring my name up in any posts on any boards so that I may at least defend my name.  Pete at ctsooner@alumni.ou.edu   I'm not hiding behind a keyboard.

Oh, not that it matters, but I WISH I was able to work at Johnny's or any of the dealers I mentioned.  Since you don't know crap about who I am, I'll share a spec.  I'm a retired Navy Commander.  I'm a Surface Warfare Officer who drove the USS Kitty Hawk back in the day.  I'm a proud dad of two wonderful children.  One is 18, with Autism who stunned us all in his growth and is attending college this year in PA.  My daughter is a Jr at Univ of New Hampshire. She's majoring in Astro and Nuclear physics and minoring in Entrepreneurship. She also captains the cheer squad that is heading to nationals in April.  My wife owns an insurance agency and  writes in over 38 states. We have three Yorkies.

I can no longer work as I had Transverse Myelitis that was caused by MS.  I use a rollator to get around.  I'm very active and do everything I can possibly do, but many days I have to just stay home by myself with my dogs.  We will hang out on forums all day and listen to music of all types.  

There you go, that's what I have decided to share, but still not WHO I am.  Oh, I love Vandersteen's, Ayre, Basis and Audioquest.  Guilty for liking them all.  I also like a ton of other gear, but this is what I currently own and I realize that we all like different things and that's why there are forums.  Not trying to sell a darn thing, other than older gear that I wanted to move like many other folks.

Again, we agree to disagree, I have never in the 20 years of being an audiophile and an occasional shopper, living in this area, found a kindred spirit such as  in  Dave and Audio Doctor. 

Never was I given a hard sell, as you described, and he proved in doing demos that little changes in system setups and pairings could totally change the sound, we did a shoot out between Wireworld and Audioquest Cables and the differences were easily audible and it was instructive and thusly changed my biases towards cable upgrades, I can't ever remember a dealer actually doing a cable demo everyone is always trying to sell me new speakers or components, not cables and power conditioning as a next possible step. 

Dave felt more to me as someone who was committed to the art of music reproduction, and the fact that these guys chose to work with lesser known but famous brands such as ATC, and Paradigm, says to me it is more about the sound then the brand, until now who ever thought of Paradigm as making world class speakers? And I can't ever remember anyone selling ATC in the New York metro area, I have seen lots of B&W, I have seen Harbeth and Spendor, never ATC. 

I really don't understand your resentment of Dave, and unless he went out of his way to treat me differently I am very shocked by how you feel, I talked with Finibx  after meeting him at the shop, and his story is similar to mine, he told me Dave came to his house and re set up Wilson 8 didn't charge him a thing, and now his Wilsons sound significantly better.

Andy on the other hand seemed to always be pushing me to spend more, and encouraged me to always be changing components. I ultimately bought a pair of Virgos and Scorpios from Andy, but I never got the feeling that Andy was in it for my best interest rather than his. He is a fascinating man and can be quite engaging. 

Well Kuppe, we agree on one thing, CSA and Audio Nexus are not the friendliest of dealers and I do not patronize them either (although CSA is out of business now) and Andy Singer had a rep as overbearing but I always appreciated his knowledge and he always treated me very well. You and I also do not disagree on the freedom of one to like whatever speaker he chooses or whatever equipment he chooses. But my beef, as stated, was with Audiotroy who has invaded more than one thread that I have been in (and one which I was not on) or I would not be all over him. Look at the language he uses to promote Audiodoctor in the Wilson thread. I have never read any dealer post on the history of this forum that so shamelessly promotes his dealership. This was in line with how Dave tried to sell me at Sound By Singer and at audio shows. It just rubbed me and others the wrong way from the very first time I was subjected to it. I did my best to avoid Dave in my subsequent  visits to Singer's shop and mostly succeeded. Audiotroy deserves everything he got from me IMHO. His 12 posts on that thread were attempts to defend himself from me calling him out and to further promote his expertise and that of Audiodoctor.
Of course, in any thread, someone can make a suggestion of another brand or another alternative--I am never against that. It's the way Audiotroy did it (and as a dealer rep) that caused me to go at him. I am not the master of Audiogon propriety and indeed have never been as ferocious in writing in any forum or anywhere else as I was here on Audiogon with Troy.  
You, on the other hand, are apparently happy with the way they have treated you and I'm sure they are capable of that. They do carry some fine brands but I will exercise my right not to purchase those brands from them. You will exercise your right to not purchase from Audioconnection because John strongly promotes Vandys. And life will go on.
  

I would agree with you on principle, however, I have been told that they are going to be very limited in production so that should keep them relatively scarce.

Vanity does seem to be a large part of this industry, personally I don't give a dam about that stuff, to me it is about the sound and technology,. and if someone was to suggest something I would like better I would move out of that product and buy the new. Who cares if it is a Wilson, a Focal, Magico, or a Paradigm these are just tools and that is all they are.

I don't find it the least bit surprising that Paradigm can make a speaker as good as magico for a lot less money.  I'd be surprised if they couldn't.  They're a bigger company with more knowledge and experience.  Since they've always built to more moderate price points they've been experimenting for decades with making the right compromises to get the best performance for the money.  Lots of more mainstream companies have experimented with making higher end stuff and have been successful creating high performing products but not as successful selling them.  A person who wants to drop 50k on speakers doesn't want them saying Paradigm or Polk or something.  They want something people haven't heard of and they want there to be a lot to talk about. 

I wish Paradigm the best here but I won't be surprised if in a few years you can buy these online for an obscenely low price because they couldn't get high end buyers interested.  Vanity is a huge part of the reason very high end stuff exists.