What about First Sound pre for Pass Lab
Are Pass Labs amps probably the best ever you can buy ?
I have about 15k to spend on an amp/preamp/integrated amp.
I mostly listen to smooth jazz like Dave Koz, Rippingtons, Brian Culbertson etc.... and loud.
I have yet to hear any amp that comes close to Pass Labs.
Your experiences pls ?
I mostly listen to smooth jazz like Dave Koz, Rippingtons, Brian Culbertson etc.... and loud.
I have yet to hear any amp that comes close to Pass Labs.
Your experiences pls ?
102 responses Add your response
It's not really a thing designed to add second order harmonic. It's a pot that balances the VAS. When the VAS is out of balance one way or the other it produces negative or positive phase second harmonic distortion. P3 in the F5 does the exact same thing, except with the F5 you're putting DC on the outputs when you turn it so you need to adjust it along with P1 and P2. That kind of adjustment makes a big difference. After having experimented with it quite a bit, I think Pass is dead right on his theories about distortion. If you want deep, enveloping, layered imaging, you want some negative phase 2nd order distortion. |
I liked the recent interview with Nelson Pass in Stereophile (I think it was Stereophile)...his constant experimentation with his gear and sharing designs with the DIY/Burning Amp crowd is cool. He built a gizmo to add in "even harmonic distortion" to an amplifier (He gave some of these things away at a "Burning" gathering) as part of a theory that that he feels makes music sound more musical...or something...all validating the mysteries behind my single ended tube amp sounding better than any SS amp I've heard. Pass is the rare open book designer who writes his own manuals and shares pretty much everything he does and is funny and seemingly less of an egomaniac than many great designers out there. |
@wiredaudio So you like the Pass 250.5 better than Classe CA2200 ? I ask because I own the CA2200 and like it very much.. No one talks about it at all despite the good reviews.. Which leads me to maybe try something else now because, just maybe, the other stuff is better ????? (Pass, Ayre, Bryston, and everything else in the same tier).. anyone else can answer if they have experience with CA2200 .. By the way the Classe beat Parasound A21 in my system, my ears.. |
Dowto1000 Here's a list of Pass amps with no feedback... F1, F1J, F2, F2J, F4, M2, SIT1, SIT2, SIT3. Those are all amps that will drive an actual speaker load. I'm not sure you could even call a .3 watt amplifier a "flea power" amp. Perhaps "microbe power" amp would be more accurate. I really don't think the ACA should be considered much of a measure of what characterizes Pass amps. That is an amp designed first and foremost to be VERY easy to build. "Professionally" building an amp designed to be put together by a 12 year old doesn't strike me as a monumental achievement. It doesn't sound like you know much about Pass amps. Go try a SIT, a J2, or maybe and F4. That F4 is designed for line level stages like you're working with to enable them to drive an actual speaker load. |
OP, if you have $15k for only the amp(s), then you should consider the GaN-FET class D amps from AGD Production, Vivace monoblocks. They are $15 per pair. Here is their URL link: http://agdproduction.com Two forum threads are devoted to GaN-based Class D amp tech. See these URL links for further discussion: https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/gan-based-class-d-power-amps https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/which-class-d-amplifier-ps-audio-ghent-nord-merrill-or-other |
From 7-3-18 to 12-31-18, I designed and developed a SE two stage directly-coupled tube amp for my ALTEC speakers. It must do 0.3 Watts. It had a power supply to support a 100 Watt amp. It was hard-wired internally with wire with having silver content. Unlike any Pass amp, there is no feedback in the amp. In December 2108, a friend sent me a PASS ACA 1.6 version, professionally built, to sell for him on eBay. I allowed the Pass amp to warm up for 24 hours. When I put the ACA 1.6 in my system , ( compared to my much lower powered tube amp ), the ACA sounded thin, anemic, un-dynamic, two-dimensional, removed from the music, and uninspiring. My DIY tube amp design - easily and simply trashed the ACA. That .............was my recent listening experience. If a triode tube amp is done well ( sadly for the public, 99.9% are NOT !! ) you can not match it, with any low-powered transistor amp, IMHO. YMMV, fine with me !! Dowto1000 |
@googoogjob32 and @exron, I have the BHK Pre, it is fantastic, which is why the BHK Signature 300 is on my short list. But I love the fact that the x260.8 delivers the first ~30 watts of power in full class A. This doesn't mean it will out perform a BHK mono in my system. I'm thinking there could be a v. nice definitely synergy with the BHK monos and pre. |
Dowto1000, May I introduce you to the Pass SIT by SemiSouth, a power JFET with triodic curves and massively more gain than a triode, less distortion, that can directly drive a load without a transformer. There certainly ways of getting the qualities of a triode out of solid state devices. It's just a question of choosing the right devices and topology. |
I heard Cary SET's at a show and the sound was anemic. Little speakers naturally. I heard a demo at an audio meeting of a small-scale tube amp company (SET's) on a Livingston Taylor LP. They sounded very good, maybe a tad loose in the bass. It was very nice but I still like Rowland, Levinson, etc. VTL makes great amps but they are not SET's. Some accuse them of sounding like SS! I can only vouch for Pass Aleph amps since I have heard what they can do in person. You can hear in a few minutes the "warmth" to the presentation. It's unmistakable, but you may not personally like them, which is fine. But you can fry an egg (well almost) on the surface. |
Cakyol, Look NO! @ all of these response why. Speakers love the very best Amp driven them to Nirvana. Pass/TA Arc/etc,etc. If your eye's on a PASS LABS own it. Guess what! Not the exact SOUND YOUR EARS WANTED. No problem. To cool, to warm to hot of top end, To lose bass. What to do. Well interconnects, power cables, fuses, all of these can be GAME changers. The Cable Co online will loan you al box full of each to dial in your Nirvana return the rest you pay UPS both ways only.. All of these tweats Trust me my first Audio serious system back in 1969. Been through all of THIS is the best BS suggestors... Tubes 444 |
Mr. Pass makes very nice Solid State amps, among the best out there. Hes a cool guy !! Unfortunately, solid state amps typically require a certain amount of negative feedback, which adds an OUT OF TIME component to the music's playback. Fortunately for music lovers, there is an inherently better device called the triode vacuum tube, that when done well, can operate without feedback and can become a better-sounding amplifier than ANY solid state device can be made into. There are two problems with tube designs however (1) The best performing amps will be 3 Watts or less (2) 99.90 percent of the tube amps built, past and present, simply don't cut the mustard The solution to number (1) above, is very easy : select the best sounding amplifier ( which is THE weakest link in the system ) as the FIRST priority in your State of the Art Hi Fi system. Then, find a really good high-efficiency speaker . I am thinking of a simple two- way, ALTEC, GPA and ALE. The solution to number (2) above, which tube amp to buy, is very easy. There is only one person, known to me over the past dozen years, who builds the best performing tube amps ever made. He is out of Livingston, Montana , USA, and his name is Dennis Fraker. His small company ( one man ) is called Serious Stereo. I would simply suggest, anyone who seeks the best listening experience, to visit Dennis at his place in Montana, and allow him to demo his late-2018 system for you. You will know, right away, from what you hear !! Also, he is a very nice person to interact with, smart, caring, and honest. Look him up on the web, you can call and talk to him !! But most of all, visit and listen for yourself. The proof of the pudding . Well, now you have the truth, at least as " I " see / experience / hear it. Go visit and listen for yourself. You will be educated. Jeff Medwin |
I am a professional A/V reviewer and have had many systems in my home and currently all three of my systems have Pass electronics. My situation may be different from those who have written in previously because when I evaluate new equipment such as speakers, I need to have a reference point to assess their voicing. The most critical thing, IMHO, is to have the opportunity to see how amplifiers and front end sources work with their speakers. There is little science here in that specs on the bench will not tell you how an amp will sound with your speakers until you actually hook it up. For those considering the purchase of a stand-alone amplifier or integrated amplifier, one of the most important criteria is reliability followed by customer care. I have had several amplifiers leave my system on those grounds alone. Since bricks and mortar audio stores are not as prevalent as they were two decades ago, it is worth while for potential customers to contact the manufacturers directly. A good company will tell you what speakers they have used in designing and testing their amplifiers. An even better company or dealer would give you a 30-day trial on a demo unit. So using the term "best" is not the right question to pose, as there will be no "best" amplifier for every system. For cakyol, $15K opens up a lot of possibility and, in my experience, the biggest bang for the buck is investing in good separates that can be individually upgraded as the need arises. |
Always interesting when someone tries to claim “best”. I agree with a number of the previous comments, especially that it is all about system synergy. Pass Labs build quality and customer service are legendary. I have recently auditioned a large number of amps trying to find the “right fit” for my system and my biases. These included a Dennis Had Fire-Bottle, ARC, SIT-3, Bedini, F6, Sunfire, Counterpoint, BEL and Coincident. Before I go further let me say I’m all vinyl with an Aesthetix IO sig front end, a “Truth” passive pre and VSA speakers. For me, in this kit, the 211/300b based Coincident Dragon MKll’s are sublime, followed surprisingly closely by 40+ year old class A SS Bedini’s. Unfortunately, it is very expensive and time-consuming to audition amps. I would say don’t hurry and get 30 day Right Of Returns, even if you have to pay a restocking fee. Fortunately, a number of manufacturers will allow you to test gear, but some won’t. Also, don’t overlook the stars of yesteryear. |
COUPLE OF comments- A Pass integrated amp (and many others) do not come with fixed outputs. If you have a tape/ digital recorder it's not a good choice. Pass XA amps run VERY hot. Pass ALEPH amps run VERY hot. Some of their amps must be switched on by reaching BEHIND the amplifier. This can be extremely inconvenient in some set-ups impossible. The newer faceplates are much nicer looking than the previous design which was a total waste of aluminum and money (IMO). The BIAS METER is completely unnessesary but it's still something you must pay for. The wing style speaker connectors may interfere with tightening large cables. The old 5-in-one connectors were EASY to use. (this goes for Levinson and Krell owners also). I like Rowland gear also and it runs cool. But it's expensive and the fancy "diamond cut" faceplates are easy to scratch up. But a friend has Aleph 1.2 mono blocks and although they are "not as good" as the new stuff, but OMG are they great sounding. I would NEVER recommend that he sell them. But he did have to buy a remote switching unit because the power switches are on the back panel and hard to access. High end audio is a pain in the "neck". |
Checkout Michael Lavorgna's product of the year for 2018 on twitteringmachines.com Its an amp that was released in 2005 and is very reasonably priced compared to some of the other amps you've mentioned. They are hand made to order and there is almost no advertising about them aside from when they were released over a decade ago. Choose wisely. |
googoogjoob23 posts 12-08-2018 7:45amThere’s less love for Vitus Audio. But that isn’t a surprise given they’re a Danish manufacturer & only have a handful of Dealers in the US. |
I had to fire up the xa30.5 with all the chatter on Pass..... Long story short. Aside from the accolades on Pass products I am equally impressed what this man has done for the community --the average or not so average listener and even more so the DIY'er. Very few in such positions of ability and knowledge will share it with the masses and mix it up at DIY events. |
@cakyol The cost of the amp does not quantify the improvement in sound you are getting. If class A/B is what you are considering then getting a good implementation with first 20 watts of class A into your speaker given the impedance would be nice. The rest can be class A/B, make sure the amp never reaches clipping. Some speakers need high current and good voltage swings, so amp that can do that is what you should consider. I was looking for same and was considering the significantly less expensive and some not so famous amps by Coda, Odyssey, Parasound, ATI and ATC P2 etc. I did settle for Benchmark AHB2 however. I would wager that if you level match the above amps you may not hear any difference at normal listening levels. My preamp is Legacy Wavelet which is more expensive than the amp, it comes with room correction and are integrated to work well with Legacy Speakers. |
You may want to consider Krell. I’ve had several models pushing B&W 802 and KEF. Currently, I have Krell’s 575 Solo coupled with Martin Logan 13a. A reason I mention them is that they just upgraded their line, “XD”, which has been well received by both Stereophile and Tone Audio. Like Pass, friendly and great service. |
One of the things you want to consider is not only build quality but service after the fact. I have a Pass Labs X250 sounds wonderful bought it second hand if I have questions I can call Pass Labs and they will answer questions as if you just made the perchase yesterday. Have communicated with Kent English a number of times always willing to help. I also just bought a PS Audio Signiture 250 amplifier best I have ever herd for the money. Also CS is outstanding have communicated with Founder ( Paul M) he responded to my email within hours. Call an 800 for Marantz took 3 weeks to get a call back and it was the USA sales line Also in my opinion Luxman and Macintosh do not have the build quality they had years ago. I have also heard repair on Macintosh even from a certified repair shop sucks. Also not sure why one of the people that responded would want to keep his amp on 24/7 if someone has the answer please respond |
jafant9,950 postsCheers! |
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I too have Pass Labs on my short list of amps I would like to try. Pass X260.8, as well as PS Audio BHK 300 Monos are my two short listed SS Amps. I have the BHK Pre with NOS tubes (the Tungrams recommended by Uncle Kevin). My speakers are Von Schweikert VR 5 Anniversary Mk 2s, and I am currently bi-amping with a highly modified Sonic Frontiers Power 1 SE+ on the top (KT150s) and a pair of custom built Class D Audio monoblocks for the base. The sound is superb, but I am growing tired of large power tube maintenance, cathode resisters blowing every 6 - 7 months, and would like to simplify. The input tubes of the BHK wouldn’t be a bother for me, as I know those amps would be a great match for my pre, as well as speakers. That said, I am still interested in owning a Pass. I owned Bryston 7BSST for quite a while, and although they were a great match for my older VR 3.5 speakers, they were not a good match with my VR 5 Anniversaries. Anyone here have experience running Pass X series monos with Von Schweikerts? I do not have a local dealer close to me, and the Pass Dealer that is 1.5 hours away does not sell PS Audio. |
Pass gets lots of accolades and praise, so they must be good! I have really no experience with them. I have a Luxman L-590AxII integrated. It's full class A power. Sounds spectacular and has a built in phono stage, which is also excellent. Others I considered were the Esoteric F-07 integrated. I see, maybe it's new, Mark Levinson - No 5805 Integrated. It has phono and digital inputs. These are all available at Music Direct. No I don't work for them. I mention them because they have a generous 60 day return policy and they make returns easy. This is essential for trying whatever you decide to purchase; you need to try it in your system. It is the only way to know, if a piece is right for you. Jason |
With that budget, I second duckworp’s recommendation. If you can find a good 2nd hand Vitus SIA-025Mk2 Class A integrated, that is a very musical, warm sounding amp which will drive your speakers with authority. I own the SIA-025 Mk1 and it is a peach of an amp. If you’re buying new, I can recommend the Vitus RI-101 which is $15.6kUS. It is a powerful, natural/organic and musical sounding amp. I really like it. The new RI-101 is also closer to the SIA-025 than the old RI-100. Re: Pass, I’ve heard the Pass XA-250.8/XP-20 combo and clearly preferred the SIA-025 running in Class A. I’d even take the RI-101 over that combo. But remember, we all hear things differently and this is just my opinion. |
Pass is great. I have a Perla Audio integrated that sounds similar to the Pass .8 amps. The big difference is that the Perla uses 5W at standby vs like 250W for the Pass. It’s also not covered in giant heat sinks, and is Class AB. i know some don’t care about this, but after hearing the Perla amp it kind of made the hulking and power hungry Pass amp that’s heavily A biased feel antiquated. |
I had my choices down to two integrated amps, I passed on the PASS INT 250 after hearing the T+A 2500R integrated. It just did everything better and looked better. Even though I really liked it, I was able to trade the 2500R for their higher end T+A PA300HV Integrated which was used. Outstanding amp for the money, in an entirely different league than the PASS. I recently heard the new Luxman integrated driving the new Wilson Audio Sasha DAW’s...killer amp. I would take the new Luxman or a T+A amp any day over the PASS int 250. |
