Best multi channel amp and processor good for 2 channel listening.
Audiotroy, do the NAD or Audio Control down-sample 24bit/96 or 24/192kHz 5.1 or 7.1 to 48kHz when room equalization (Dirac Live?) is engaged? FYI, this response from Anthem. ["The STR has 2.2 output channels. With ARC enabled all of these channels will be at 32/192. The MRX/AVM will process signals in the format that matches the input. A 24/192 will be 24/192, 24/96 will be 24/96 etc… this is inclusive of ARC being run and will work up to 7.1.4 channels. The second part of the processing is up-mixing, if you have a 2.0 24/192 and want to up-mix to 11-channels you’ll need to use either of the Anthem Logics or All Channel Stereo in order for it to stay 24/192. If you use either Dolby Surround or DTS Neural then the MRX/AVM may down-sample, however the amount that it will down-sample is dynamic based on processor load and will attempt to maintain the highest level possible."] Am I understanding this correctly? The Anthem products will down sample Dolby or DTS media which is usually video / film audio while allowing multi-channel audio to pass through? |
Rechsm, thanks for confirming it. The Maestro was built to sound really good and not be just a feature oriented product. The fact that use top of the line burr brown dacs and use chips for each channel and a massive power supply does show how good the pre pro is. The Maestro sounded better than anything else we compared it to. Maguir the Nad is a very good piece also personally we don't think it sounds as good, but for its price point it is very good. We sell all three pieces, the Anthem, the Nad and the Audio Control. Dave and Troy Audio Doctor NJ |
I'm sorry you were misgendered. It's nice to have you here. Here's another vote for the AudioControl Maestro M9. The analog 2-channel mode on it is amazing. I put a ~$5k Bryston BP-17 preamp in front of it running in HT bypass and it did not sound even a tiny bit better than the Maestro M9. I returned the preamp. A $9k Atmos processor beating a $5k 2 ch preamp -- that tells you what Troy is so excited about. Dirac on the M9 is very effective once you get it running but it's a nightmare to use due to the Windows interface which was apparently designed by a drunk and angry toddler. Sounds great though. As an alternative to multichannel amps I use multiple stereo and monoblock amps. A Bel Canto monoblock for center, two of their stereo amps for the dolby surrounds, and two Crown stereo amps for the Atmos channels. These amps are all Class D, take up not much more space than a big multichannel machine, and can stay powered on all the time. |
Hi guys, I just realized I am being addressed as a male in this thread. I understand that this hobby is dominated by the male gender but you will find women that appreciate this hobby as well. I am actually a 57 year old women that appreciates good sounding music. Alkaloid, sorry but sticking to my budget.... I do have the Bryston and ATI in my multi channel amp short list and would like to add a couple more. Any suggestions here? |
If money was no object I would go with Bryston for amplification and Trinnov for my pre pro. You may get a divorce when the wife sees the bill. But you will not be disappointed in any way. Last and not least the room. But the Trinnov can make adjustments to compensate for less than perfect rooms. And they DO compensate to the point of problem solved. |
Hi audiotroy, You included three scenarios and I am still undecided between option 1 and 3. I included the Arcam because the price point is not bad at all. The Audio Control may be a bit much, I might have to revisit this decision after purchasing the music side or getting something used. I would like to stay under 5k for the multi channel processor. What do you guys think of the NAD M17 V2? I am also being steered towards the Anthem AVM 60 and Marantz AV8805, but still think the Arcam may be better. |
I just saw audiotroy's post. Looks like the Arcam and AC units are not the same. Audiotroy what do you think of the receivers made by Arcam and AC? For example are the AVR850 and AVR550 a good solution for maguiar? Are they different from the Audio Control 9 and 7? In the end would he get better sound from separates where the processor and amp have different chassis, power supplies, isolation etc. or from a combined unit where the amp is designed to work with the processor and there are no interconnect cables, cleaner signal path etc.? |
Maguiar, I'm glad to see that you're getting to listen to a bunch of things. That's always the best way. I think the realization you had about splitting the system makes a lot of sense. In my experience that's the best way to get what you want. For HT, the Arcam 860 or the AC M9 are top notch. I think they're quite similar if not the same units. I'm not sure you could do much better here. If it's in your budget to get one of these processors and a separate amp then that's a great solution. Another piece you can look at is the Arcam AVR850 which has has the 860 processing paired to a seven channel class G amp. It should end up costing less then separates and sound really good. For audio, the idea of listening to speakers and amps together like you did with the Harbeth and Luxman makes sense. In my experience for audio there is so much involved in the amp/speaker interaction that you almost need to pick them together. I've heard speakers sound totally different based on the amp that was connected to them. Keep listening and let us know what you find. |
Bwguy and Randyhat, the T2 is a huge improvement over the T1 in everyway sonically and build quality. Mquar we are an Audio Control dealer and their products are really excellent, the Audio Control product is superior to the less expensive Arcam, if you look at the processor the Maestro M9 weighs 40 lbs vs the Arcam which weight 25 lb, also the Masetro uses all discrete Burr Brown dacs vs a shared chip in the Arcam add in longer warranties and a more sophisticated amplifier section and you can see why we prefer the Audio Control product. So if you decision to use a High end integreated with surround sound processor and multi channel amp or are you leaning towards a high end surround sound receiver with two channel separates which is more important to you. If you want the best of both worlds then a two channel preamp along with a reallly good multi channel amplifier and a separate surround sound processor may be the ticket. Dave and Troy Audio Doctor NJ Lumin and Audio Control |
Hi delancey, Let me start by thanking you for your response... Let me start by saying what a change of heart I’ve had since the beginning of this thread and this came about from all the research and information I have been given “one big step”. I came to the realization that it would be best to separate ht from music listening and use most of the budget towards music. I have narrowed down my home theater processor to the Arcam AV860 or the Audio Control Maestro M9, I believe I can get a good deal on either one. The seven channel amp is still up in the air. I might just use the corresponding amps for these two or go for a Bryston amp due to their unbeatable warranty. For audio I am still researching but have a short list T&A, Esoteric, Accuphase and Luxman. I actually went to my first audio show this past weekend in Tampa, Florida and felt like a kid in a candy store..lol.. I did get to listen to the Luxman L 509x with the Harbeth S-HL5 and blew me away, the fullness, richness, clarity, nothing was missing. Let me tell you the Harbeth can give those Verity Otello’s a run for their money to the point I am torned between the two, will see. Unfortunately, did not see Accuphase or T&A there for a listen. Esoteric was combined with others in one big room and could not listen to them either. Anyway, your two cents will be greatly appreciated with the decisions above. |
Maguiar, you asked for opinions so here’s my two cents. When I first read this thread in Jan I didn’t respond because I thought it was so off track. The concept of using two channels of a 7.1 processor/amp as a second zone to run high quality audio speakers seemed poor. I’m glad that people have mentioned that already and now you’re exploring a bypass setup or just selling two speakers and integrating everything or having two totally separate setups. Those seem like much better choices with the last one being the best IMHO. The thing is you’re really wanting two different things in the way you’re describing the two channel sound you like. I don’t think you get there with just playing the L/R speakers of your HT when you want to listen to music because it will never be as good as the Verity’s can be. Also, if somehow you can make the two L/R channels sound that good, the center will never match them in HT use. You’re probably closer to your goal by just listening to HT in an optimized Verity based 2CH system with a phantom center. Anyway, to achieve your goal of a great HT with an audio system that meets the quality level you describe while having minimal equipment, I’d suggest the following: - HT - Keep the SF 5.1 speaker setup and buy an AudioControl AVR8 in the used market. Yes, it’s a HT receiver, but it’s built like separates. It will more than keep up with any of the processor/amp combinations listed above. In HT you’ll get a lot of the key things you need, amp/proc integration, similarity among the 5 speakers, sound quality, video processing, room correction ect. Also, this unit has the better amp (double check this) and none of the Atmos, DTS X capabilities which you don’t need. It should be a great used value. - Audio - Given what you described I would really suggest a tube based system. Most tube gear intrinsically has the qualities you’re looking for. I’ve heard the Verity Parsifal with a VAC Avatar integrated a few years back and it was sick. For my tastes, very few audio systems can better that sound quality. I don’t think they make the Avatar anymore, but something similar from VAC, VTL/Manley, Audio Research, Audio Note could be a good choice. If the thought of tubes is a non-starter then find a good dealer and listen to a few solid state units on your speakers in your home to find the one that get’s closest to the sound you want. With solid state you’ve looking for a type of sound that’s usually not the norm. For that reason you need to try a few with your speakers and in your space to see which one is closest. This should be very doable because you haven't spent a lot of money on the HT side. |
Alkolid your feelings that because a studio uses something therefore it is good is completely inaccurate. Studios use certain products because they are durable and do the job. We were a Bryston dealer for years and their amplifiers were good not amazing but good, the CD player was very good for the price and their preamplifiers were okay at best. In order to make a Bryston setup sound really good you had to use a tube preamplifier to add some body to the sound, we haven't heard their latest gear but that was our experience at the time, the Luxman gear and Hegel components were far better. We will agree that the AVM 60 is excellent for the price and we did prefer it to the more expensive Marantz 8802a and the Anthem room correction is superb however the AVM 60 can be bettered by more expensive pre/procs. We have the Audio Control Maestro M9 and that is the best sounding pre pro we have ever used it is a $8900 40 lb monster pre/pro with individual burr brown dacs per channel and the sound is exquiste you could clearly hear the difference between the AVM 60. We were running that magnificent pre/pro with an $18k Plinius Odeon one of the finest multi channel amplifiers that has ever been built with all Kef Reference loudspeakers and the sound was remarkable for both music and theater. We are selling our Odeon because Plinus recently discontinued it as they were not selling that many of them, Plinus is known as a two channel company. This one multi channel amplifer bested a set of 400watt mono blocks as well from a very respected European company. We know just how remarkable a good music and theater system can be. Dave and Troy Audio Doctor NJ |
I will give another vote to the AVM60. It really is a superior unit with amazing steering logic. The ARC software does a commendable job of “ironing out” all the various speakers (different sizes, types, brands, locations) to create a unified and believable sound field. It is also more than respectable with 2 channel audio. You would likely have to spend as much as the Anthem on a 2 channel audiophile pre to get better results. |
I have trolled several bankrupt studios and the equipment was auctioned off at low prices. One thing I came away with was the most critical areas of the studio had Bryston for amplification. At the time I was unfamiliar with the brand but after much research I can see they are the way to go if you want perfection of tolerance and longevity and FLAT response. They don't add or take away from the source signal. They are not warm or anything else, just ACCURATE. Some people say to bright, but it is the signal that is bright. I own Anthem equipment only because I could not afford Bryston. Anthem is good don't get me wrong but the studios know more than most on this forum. |
Hi m-dB, I am with you up to the tube part. I contemplated a tube at first but don’t want to deal with the maintenance. I am confident I can find a ss that can come close to a tube sound. Actually, I am currently researching T&A, Accuphase, Esotéric and my favorite so far Luxman. I am not sure what you mean by mixing speakers. I am considering keeping my Sonus Faber for surround and the Verity’s for music. |
Maguire, its no secret that most people enchanted by the prospect of purchasing new audio gear tend to over estimate their actual music listening time compared to watching TV. Be honest with yourself. There's no shame in enjoying home theater. Mixing different speakers is a disaster, even centers and dipoles, let alone adding expensive high fidelity speakers with a giant display in between them. In the end both formats suffer greatly no matter who sets them up. Since your situation may be changing why not a highly rated receiver, seven modestly priced identical easy to drive speakers and a small but expensive subwoofer for now. I'm guessing when you hear a comfortable nicely set up vacuum tube audio system your outlook may change. The only true audition is at home. Stay out of Magnolia and don't give your phone number out. Good luck and have fun with it. |
I’ll add my 2 cents... The AVM60, in my experience, has been a great piece. I own a pretty complicated room correction piece for my 2-channel setup, DEQX PreMate, and would not recommend it to anyone that’s not super interested in the minutiae of room correction. The AVM60, very, very different story. You load an app on your phone, run it and your done. The onscreen GUI is really intuitive and very responsive. I’ve had some pre’s that lag when pressing a button, almost making you think the batteries are dying. Updating the firmware, super easy, you plug an Ethernet cable in the back and navigate to the upgrade screen in the GUI. All in all, I’ve had a very positive experience with it. Not complicated, at all, very simplified. I do not use it for HT bypass, as my 2-channel is entirely separated, so I can’t comment on that. |
Hi frostdot, What Sonus Faber do you like? I have an old pair of Grand Piano’s and still love them. I recently heard the Verity’s and fell in love all over again but I am thinking of still keeping the Sonus Faber for my Home Theatre and the Verity Otello’s for 2 channel. I am seriously considering the SP3 or SP4 but not sure which one. I am not going beyond 7.1, so what do you think? Maybe the SP3 with 4K? Any suggestions on the 2 channel amp to pair with this? |
I own electrostats in a 5.1 configuration. The only speakers that I liked more were some sonus fabers. I have a bryston sp2 and i keep an eye out for the right deal on an sp3 with the 4k board. Its difficult to keep up with hdmi standards which is why for now Im just not. I think the bryston sounds better than anything else ive heard except for the classe ssp800 which was similar but ive found classe unreliable over the years and they arent upgrading video boards at all. If I had the budget Id strongly consider the bryston sp4 or the datasat ls10. |
Bwguy and Randyhat, we have the T2 on order out of the first ten coming into the country. The guys from Lumin seem to think that the T2 outperforms the A1 which does have the outboard power supply. The Lumin engineers are out of broadcast engineering, they have stated that their included new SMPS is really superb and they have worked very hard to make it quiet. The T2 is supposed to sound absolutely amazing, we ordered our demo without hearing it. The X1 is absolutely extraordinary if the little T2 sounds even close it will shake up that segment of the market. Dave and Troy Audio Doctor NJ Lumin dealers |
I am also interested in the T2. I currently own the T1. I'm wondering about the trade-off between the T1 and it's external linear power supply vs the T2 and it's internal switching power supply. Just how much difference does the power supply make? Also I know you can upgrade the external power supply in the T1 to the same one used on the X1. Which would be a better upgrade to the T1....going to the T2 or upgrading the power supply on the T1? I know these questions are impossible to answer until someone has done extensive comparison of the units but Id be curious to hear from folks who have an opportunity to make this comparison. |
i`ve updated my integra dhc 80.2 on this website www.audio-upgrade.com and 2 channel sound is perfect. |
I have owned high end audio but I am not technical at all plus I do not experiment with audio. I usually have my systems installed by professionals. I do understand about the 2 channel preamp with bypass based on your explanation but lost on the other channels needed for 5 or seven channel HT. What are you trying to state with the last paragraph? Are you saying it will sound just as good with my speakers? I am talking about ohms, dB and wattage to be compatible with my speakers. |
Maguiar, if sound quality for surround sound and music is your passion and you are concerend with the sound quality of the processor preamp then here is how to get around that one 1: Purchase a good 2 channel preamplifier with a hone theather bypass function, you can then route your high end 2 channel sources through the 2 channel preamp and then to your high end multi channel amplfier. This way you have a separate 2 channel music pathway that is intergrated with your surround sound gear, and you get the best of both worlds. We are using our Maestro with $14k Kef Ref 3, a Lumin music streamer and the sound for music even through the Maestro is is really something. Dave and Troy Audio Doctor NJ |
Hi Audiotroy, Thanks for the info., I will dig I little more on the maestro. I have done so much reading that it’s overwhelming. I really would like something that is also good for 2 channel listening, otherwise I would have to get a separate intergrated amp. If I have to go this route I would have to go with something more economical for HT. |
Op the Audio Control is one fantastic processor, it is built for sound quality and uses all independent burr brown dac’s per channel, vs most of the world's processors which use a single dac chip for all channels, the processor uses a massive power supply it weighs 40 lbs most processor barely weigh 15 lbs, and the Maestro uses Dirac which along with Anthem and Trinov are the best room correction software. The Mastro is very very good souding for music and theater, perfect it isn’t but for its price point of $8,900.00 it is fantastic. As per the Odeon it is one of the best sounding multi channel amplifiers ever made, if the price seems a bit high make an counteroffer. Other than the Thetas Cassablancas which are very expensive and not sure of the room correction, the Maestro series from Audio Control has been getting rave reviews for years based on their musicality, superb service made in America, and reliablity and excellent service. Dave and Troy Audio Doctor NJ |
There was some discussion upthread about Anthem and B&W speakers. I have B&W 803 D in my two channel system and yep, they are bright. I just added an Anthem 520 receiver in a Surround Sound System last week, with Speakers from Silverline Audio, and not bright at all. The Anthem replaced a 10 year old Onkyo AVR that retailed for roughly the same and boy, what an upgrade. I don’t know much to credit the room calibration vs The I moved DACs but the improvement is not subtle, and interesting, I perceive the improvement more in 2 channel than in Multichannel. |
I was offered a 3 year old demo Plinius Odeon multi channel amp at $9.8 and a Audio Control Maestro 9 at $8.9 but not convinced on the Audio Control. So far the Plinius has very good reviews but not sure about the asking price. Also, would like to thank you all for all the input you have provided..... |
THD, IMD, noise floor are all technical measurements that help engineer a good product. However, all electronics will sound different and after 20 years of listening, I really don't pay attention to these measurements. I have tested Bryston 7B3, Parasound JC1, Classe CT-M300, and all sorts of Emotiva amps in my system. All sound radically different and everyone has a different tastes on what they want. |
@auxinput That is because the slew is so fast, that it is not letting the amp continue to translate the DAC square step waveforms into true analog waveforms Squarewave measurements are common in tests, this is done for every Stereophile amp measurement for instance. I get what you are saying, and since the room is an unknown factor I always recommend home trials (meaning being able to return the product for free or just return shipping, no $50 restocking fee or any of that nonsense). There are more to DAC measurements than just a flat frequency response. There is THD, IMD, noise floor, volume linearity (if it has volume controls), channel mismatch, channel crosstalk, etc. |
Pretty much all amps will measure flat and accurate. However, I stopped focusing on "measurements" a long time ago. Some measurements will help, but they will never tell you how an amp sounds. Much of how an amp sounds is how the input stage and output stage circuits are put together as well as how the amp is biased (Class A, Class AB, Class B). Also, how the Class A bias is engineered to initially slew. High bias Class A amps and warmer amps will start slewing gradually and then rise up with their normal "slew rate". These amps will sound more full and have more overall volume, but they will tend to have slightly rolled off high frequency resolution. On the other hand, lightning fast amps, such as Bryston, will have excellent high resolution response, but the bass/midbass/midrange may be light. That is because the slew is so fast, that it is not letting the amp continue to translate the DAC square step waveforms into true analog waveforms. It's all relative, though, and system synergy has a lot to do with it. That's why I thought that pairing the somewhat laid back Class A Bryston SP3 processor/preamp with the very fast Bryston B3 amps would be a good match. They would compensate for eachother's sonic signature. |
Belles: Never heard of them, but quick research shows good performance at reasonable prices. Sim/Moon: Good performance but overpriced, same category as Boulder. Also, they focus on the wrong things, selling a >800W power amp for $42K is just dumb, there are hardly any speakers that don’t distort/clip when fed 200W (some speakers claim they can, but it’s just marketing unless DSP is in the picture). McCormack: Decent performance at reasonable prices. |
@maguiar What integrated amp are you talking about? The setup is simple, surround sound is Zone 1 from the processor and 2ch setup is Zone 2, this is a super simple feature something like the Marantz has. Power the surround sound speakers with anything you like, not sure how many channels you have, but the Monolith amps I mentioned is only $1600 for 7ch. For the 2ch speakers, again use whatever amps you want; measurements of a Bryston amp, I would like @auxinput to state where exactly it is thin/bright, as you can see it is a completely accurate amp. Bryston, Benchmark, ATI, PS Audio and Arcam all offer stereo amps that perform excellently but aren’t ridiculously overpriced (like Boulder amps, good performance but stupidly marked up). |
I am using separates, an Anthem AVM60 and an Anthem P5 Statement for an amp. The processor has several memory configurations. I have the 2 channel set up for stereo memorized. You can use or eliminate the subwoofer if you want. Sound is fine. I suggested the Marantz because it might be cheaper and take up less space. Sound will be just as fine, and it will come with Auro 3D as well as Atmos and DTS X. Can be upgraded to HDMI 2.2. Room correction won't be as strong, but you stated that you are not a technical fanatic so small problems might not bother you. I literally had to build my own center channel cabinet because the factory is out of business. I copied the plans from a website owned by one of the original workers from the old factory. He repairs and sells original parts for my speakers. You could have the custom installation guys do some room treatment for you if they are trained in that area. How big is the room you are going to use? That would help us as far as power suggestions go. |
