My son is getting to the Audio World. Bought a Vincent Hybrid Pre-Amp and Vincent Hybrid Amp.
Both us MKP Film caps on each signal line-out paths. He wants a little more warm from the/voice- strings
Audio Note offers some of their Caps for those Cap rollers. In Silver/Gold./ Cooper &Alum foil.
Very pricey compared to MKP caps. 7 times+
By the way MKP is widely used by many high-end electronic audio gear Mfg because of their very-very neutral sound & fast transits. Has anyone in this forum have any feed back on CAP rolling? And Audio Note Caps??
Trust Me signal path Cap rolling can produce more changes than Tube rolling does in some cases..
Another vote for Jupiter. The copper foil are more resolving and the VT line of Jupiter caps are less expensive with better "warmth" if that is what you really want.
Dear @tubes444: Perhaps you are talking of Wima caps that are the standard in the industry. Very trusty caps.
When caps are inthe audio signal changes on different brans caps always makes a difference. Not always for the better but only different.
Best cap is a NEUTRAL one with no detectable signature. Warmer or less warmer adjectives or other kind of adjectives only tell us the cap colorations/distortions and at least me: don't want colorations.
I see a number of thumbs-up for the Jupiter VT/Copper foil cap
series. Not familiar with this brand. I’ve used some Clarity & Mundorf
in the pass. Is Jupiter used by some of the bigger names in Pre Amp/ Amplifier Mfg? I realize there’ll be some trade offs in his Cap rolling. Being he’s trying to be a" ardent Audiophile." I wouldn’t want to steer away his young hunger for solid bass either. I agree with raulriuegas comment completely. I don’t imply my son is a bass freak.
Any online sellers of the Jupiter & Andyn to check out?
Sonic Craft and Parts Connexion carry Jupiter, Clarity and Mundorf.
PLEASE check the physical size before buying. Some can be HUGE. Also check your voltages needed. tube gear has hundreds of volts, so you must use appropriate cap.
Dear @tubes444 : I never tested the cooper Jupiter in my system so I can't be sure how good are but reading through different people/reviews i found out these kind of statements that makes me think are not really neutral but " colored ":
"" Jupiter copper also possesses great low-midrange richness and color that far "
" high degree of resolution, musicality, color "
" with "more" richness and musicality "
musicality, color richness are terms used by audiophiles for home audio system performance levels but almost never we can hear those terms when we are talking of live MUSIC at near-field.
Btw, teflon V-caps comes too in a cooper version. Other caps I have experiences with are the Sonicaps platinum and are way neutral.
When oscilloscopes pay for the gear, I'll let them tell me my values, Until then, I buy what I like to listen to, can afford and can put in my living room without blocking the windows. :)
The poster is looking for warmth. All caps have a sound or personality as does all gear. The Jupiter VT caps are natural sounding with lots of meat on the bones....opposite of thin and bright sounding. Nice resolution, but they deliver the goods with a nice warmth. Perfect for the poster.
The Jupiter copper foil caps are more resolute yet, with more top end extension and air. They reveal Micro details of the music better and do all of this with a smoothness that is both natural and easy on the ears.
Yes the Jupiter caps are very, very quiet and well damped just like Duelund caps. Amazing what the removal noise does for music!
In my view, it’s technology first, materials second, brand third.
Technology for the best caps, IMO, is either metallized dielectric (e.g. aluminum deposited on teflon), or film and foil (a layer of metallic film and a layer of dielectric). Film and foil is far superior. Then there is air gap, which consists of plates of metal separated by air, but that is limited to small values.
Materials mainly used are aluminum, tin, or copper for the metal, and paper in oil, polypropylene, styrene, or teflon for dielectric. Tin or copper can be soldered, and seem to me to give a smoother sound. Dielectrics seem to affect the sound as a function of dielectric constant: clarity improves as dielectric constant goes down. That puts styrene and teflon at the top.
That said, I find that styrene sounds a little more neutral, and teflon a little edgier. Air gap and vacuum are the very best, but very bulky and very expensive.
Last is brand and details of their process. Thickness of metallization is critical to the sound of metallized caps. More is better, but good luck in finding that information. MIT has a patented method of connection, which makes their multicap line sound better to me. Dueland is very close to an optimal configuration, but you have to pay for it.
I use a lot of MIT Multicap RTX styrene and tin f&f capacitors when I can’t use air gap, as they suit my system and my tastes. YMMV
Good discussion here and as expected different choices of capacitors preferred depending on the particular poster’s taste. Some like to use the term "neutral " and others such as myself use/prefer the term "natural", semantics. Natural is what I seek, in other words, organic and realism. I’ve had the opportunity to use some exceptionally high quality capacitors. Just my opinion based on listening and acknowledging my opinion is no more or less credible than anyone else.
1.Duelund CAST copper foil. 1a.Jupiter copper foil. 2. V cap tin foil and Teflon. 3. Sonicap Platinum.
This is simply my preference based on perceived natural character. In my opinion all of these capacitors have an innate sonic signature which is unavoidable. Absolute neutrality doesn’t exist. We all choose what we believe best suits our own objective and listening criteria, as it should be.
I won’t argue over what’s the "absolute " best as this is pointless and unprovable. I accept that this is purely subjective by its very nature. One man’s neutral is another one’s thin . One man’s natural is another one’s rich. The debate goes on into eternity. Trust your own ears and you’ll be fine. Accept the fact that others will disagree with you, that’s okay. Charles
Tubes, I have been told that some offerings, which I don’t like, require hundreds of hours of break-in before being listenable. I won’t subject myself to that. Then there’s the sneaking suspicion that one is simply adapting and learning to accept an inferior sound.
I have tried both RelCap and Solen teflon f&f caps, and find them to sound similar, for values ranging from 0.022 to 0.82 uF. I tested them in a break-out box beside comparably valued RTX, and found the teflon caps to be a bit bright, RTX neither bright nor warm. The best teflon caps I have heard where made of monolithic copper and skived teflon tape, a DIY project.
None approached air-gap capacitors - by which I mean, metal plates separated by air, no other dielectric. They are hard to find, large, and rarely above 2000pF, but they are the gold standard. Air-gap and vacuum. Surplus Sales of Nebraska sells them, both variable and fixed. For that matter, you can make your own.
But once you hear them! In fact, it may take you an hour to take in and understand all the distortion that you’re not hearing. Which is why I use them when I can.
Another vote for Duelund’s Cast Copper PIO, a couple values of which Parts Connexion currently has on sale: (http://www.partsconnexion.com/duelc-specials.html?utm_source=getresponse&utm_medium=email&ut...) The Cast Silver maybe more transparent, but I couldn’t afford that show’s entry fee. Swapping the 10uF Solen caps in my B+ circuits, for Clarity's 630VDC MR Series, cleaned things up even further.
The easiest way to find the most transparent coupling cap.
To all the cap rollers, use a dac or cdp or preamp that has direct coupled output, and then install each of the caps being rolled here to capacitor couple that dac or cdp or preamp. Then see which one sound the closest to no cap (direct coupled), and then you'll have your best cap.
Or go with no caps in the signal path like my preamp! I have tired a few of the copper caps, V-Cap which I like very much and just recently got my hands of Dueland copper but just installed them so no opinion yet. I know people here who really liked the Jup coppers but I have not gotten around to those either. I did not like the bees wax version of the Jups at all. But as caps go, so do resistors Vishay, AN, Shinkoh, Caddock,etc. they all have a sound so you have to see what you like. My preamp has a switch so you can choose the resistor you like for your system or maybe more importantly for the CD you are playing. I have used Clarity caps which IMO are a great value for the money and I am trying to get to hear the copper clarity caps hopefully soon.
I will actually be rolling three different pairs of Mundorf caps and comparing their performance in a DAC with the stock caps. They arrive next week. It should prove very interesting!
Guess I lied. I actually ended up swapping out the Mundorf MCap Supreme SilverGold capacitors for the MCap Supreme EVO SilverGold caps yesterday after arriving home from work. I unplugged and opened up the DAC, ran errands for about an hour or so, then set about carefully removing the former for the latter with careful soldering.
As with the Supreme SilverGold, the Supreme EVO SilverGold sounded a touch harsh as it began the breaking-in process. However, after several hours, they began opening up. I look forward to observing how they sound in the coming months!
Agreed! I do like the new PIO or PIW (Wax) caps today from Duelund and Jupiter better, but they are crazy expensive. I use the NOS Russians, the 75 series, in crossovers. When I can afford it I go for the Jupiter copper foils in my upgrades.
I’m still waiting for someone to try reversing their existing capacitors or even their new fancy ones. Given the directionality of wire, capacitors, like fuses, should sound better one way than the other, no?
Yes direction plays a role in terms of outer and inner foil windings. Many cap manufacturers, not all, mark the outer foil end of the cap in some manner. Outer foil is the input end of the cap while the inner foil is the output side. They do sound different when reversed.
The difference in sound, when reversing capacitors, is noise. And YES, it has everything to do with the inner and outer foil. Personally, I’ve always tested caps, with regards to their lead orientation and noise, even when marked. My Cast Copper PIO (coupling cap) Duelund’s leads were not marked(though pretty obvious), and supposedly, the design is not susceptible to noise. Like every other cap I’ve tested, they were. The goal is to connect the cap’s outer foil to ground(when applicable), or the signal source(lower impedance), to shield from induced noise. http://www.blueguitar.org/new/text/threads/from_adam/components/mallory-outer-foil.pdf and http://www.justradios.com/auriINSTALL.html
Noise is certainly part of it on some caps, but it is more than that. It is surprising how tone and other SQ factors change slightly with direction. This is especially true in passive crossover networks. I spoke with the manufacturer of some very high end caps and he shared that these differences in Sonic character are not always worse, but just different depending on application and other system variables. Couple this reality with burn in SQ changes and we have fuel for extreme audiophile anxiety.
" Couple this reality with burn in SQ changes....". I can’t help but wonder: how many actually let the capacitors being auditioned, "burn in" for the length of time required, to sound their best(as with tubes, cables, etc)?
It's already well known that most caps are directional by nature of their construction. It has nothing to do with some hocus pocus wire directionality fantasy and you can absolutely measure which direction is the best. In any capacity with rolled substrates the outside layer terminal always goes to ground since it shields. Putting them in backwards runs the risk of injecting noise into the circuit. Some makers mark the outside terminal with a line but most don't. If you're not sure, test them.
That’s pretty much the same hogswallup folks spew about cables, that it’s not the wire, it’s the shield. Yet unshielded cables exhibit directionality. Follow?
Wire directionality must be controlled during the manufacturing process. You know, the way Audioquest does for all of their cables, including HDMI cables, and power cords. There is no other way to optimize results. Obviously other direction issues can arise, as with caps and shielded cables. They should be addressed as well. I totally get that some folks aren’t interested in optimum results.
When you say “most of us just aren’t interested” one assumes you mean those with moderate to severe learning disabilities or do you mean those who’ve completely given up? Besides, of course you can measure wire directionality. Have you been snoozing in class again? The resistance is always lower and measurable in the correct direction. Hel-loo! God gave you two ears and one mouth for a reason. - Judge Judy
@geoffkait No... I've called you out on this myth many times and you have yet to substantiate your snake oil. Then again, I suppose my expectations for the inventor of the Teleportation Tweak shouldn't be too high.
A myth is as good as a mile. Have you given any consideration to something like an education refresh? So far, I shot down all your so-called technical objections. You got nothing except superstition.
@geoffkait No, you haven't even come close. You resort to name calling and rabid insistence. You claim to be some NASA engineer but you don't even know why caps are directional. You charge people money for rocks, colored spots, and to make noises on their phone all in the name of audio improvement. Sometimes you say something I totally agree with. Other times you make me laugh until my ribs hurt. I just can't take you seriously. I bet you'd be a blast to have a beer with.
geoffkait is rite-on. As to cables and their directional clear path
signal. Audio Quest has the directional flow arrows on every cable they make. Are you trying to convince us, or yourself audio cables don’t have or the best electrical single flow if so. Oh!,They must have many people setting there all day long listening for purity before the arrow is stamped on. This cable single goes North, this one south before packaging for no good reasons if resistance testing proves nothing?
If true, even your head bone could hear the difference. As dose ours. Fantastic..
@tubes444 There's a variety of reasons a cable may be directional and none of it has to do with the flow of electricity being biased in one direction or another. This stupidity doesn't even make sense. If a length of wire is directional and you pass an AC signal though it you're going to end up with even order distortion. Why would you want that??? Most directional cables are directional due to how they're terminated and shielded. It has nothing to do with pieces of wire behaving like diodes.
I believe some were in this thread subject something got lost " in translation."
As it wasn’t about if a wire has a +- value. About caps. No one disagrees that assembly of a AUDIO CABLE could and have a better path of least resistance once assembled.
@tubes444 Uh, I disagree with that plenty because it's fiction. My first post on this thread was a jab about still waiting for the first transistor rolling thread. I chimed in again when somebody proposed the myth that caps may be directional because electrons might like flowing through them better one way than another, which isn't why a cap is directional at all. I'm skeptical about the value some of these insanely priced caps represent. They do make a difference, but beyond a point I feel like the tone is best addressed at the gain devices.
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