Class D is affordable and sounds as good or better the SS/Valve why buy anything else ?
I have spent a fair amount of my hard earned money on big ticket brand new SS and VT/Valve amplifiers over the years without hesitation, with state of the art 2019 class D amplifiers becoming cheaper and sounding better, i wouldn't join in again.
For older technology amplifiers SS VT/Valve to compete with State of the art class D, Their prices are going up and up.
One example is Pilium Audio from Greece or Bulgaria their Divine Line the prices are all over £100,000 for their pre amps and power amps, I know the UK importer he said they sound OK,
Another example FM Acoustics again up to and over £100,000 for pre and power amps. i have owned FM Acoustics pre and power again their OK,
I am not saying they do not sound good, i am saying why spend this much when state of the art class D probably sounds as good now and can only improve with the GaN capacitors and is nearly up to 100 times cheaper.
Is there still a market for multi thousand £$s SS or VT/Valve amplifiers ?
When class D finally overtakes SS VT/Valves what will people do with their multi thousand £$ amplifiers, keep them knowing there is something better ? Or will we see the market flood with exotic used amplifiers ?
Digital technology is rapidly growing pace and becoming cheaper, with GaN capacitors being introduced the sound is going to get better and better and will slowly or quickly become even more affordable.
If you had 50,000 to spend on an Amplifier, would you buy a high ticket SS amplifier and hope for the best ?
Would you stay safe and go with high ticket valve amp, class D can never match good valves right ?
Or would you sit tight and see how the GaN capacitors can further improve the performance of state of the art class D ?
Please feel free to join in, everybody is welcome, i think its a very delicate/touchy discussion for some people with big bucks invested in older type amplifiers.
You have no idea how real music sounds with Iceedge based amplifiers.
LOL this too is really funny. Are you saying that music doesn't sound the same through Iceedge products?? Don't let ICEpower hear you saying that :) Overall any amplifier should be neutral and Iceedge is no exception.
FWIW I have recordings I made myself on both CD and LP. I was there so I know how the recording is supposed to sound. I have the masters. I don't care how **any** amplifier **sounds**; but I care a lot about how those *recordings* sound when I play them on a system. Most class D amps fall well short of the mark but many tube amps don't. There are a few class D amps that do rather well though (as there are also some traditional solid state amps, in particular some of the SIT amps by Nelson Pass).
No it just means my ears are accustomed to the much higher fidelity that today's class D can offer. Once you hear the best, going the other direction is pretty intolerable. And my 100+ former tube aficionado turned class D clients all agree.
Mivera says: "When I listen to tubes all I pickup on is the loss of resolution, high noise floor, and often buzzing sounds coming from the speakers. I guess I’m just more into the sound of music than the sound of electronics. a lot of musicians who have been around loud sounds for decades can’t hear good enough to pick up on that. Too much hearing damage." This statement simply says this guy has never heard a great tube amp, which is likely baloney intended to help him make his case. Buzzing sounds? Man...also, as a successful decades long musician and live concert mixer (working this weekend...everybody is welcome to come by the show, although for privacy reasons I refuse to say where it is) I likely fall into the "hearing damage" category, but it seems my hearing is just fine...amazingly...Although I don't claim to have "golden ears" I have noticed a somewhat dry and unappealing overall sound produced by the various class D home audio amps I’ve heard, and that’s not to say they could, and likely will, improve. The reason musicians often prefer tubes isn’t due to hearing loss, it’s due to exposure to music and the desire to hear it reproduced with the timbre and overall tonality that simply sounds right to them as, after all, musicians have a unique perspective.
You have no idea how real music sounds with Iceedge based amplifiers. As technology advances, costs go down. This how technology works. Things get more efficient, quality gets better, and costs go down. How much did the first Apple computer cost back in the 70's? How much does it it cost for 1000x better performance today? a $40 Raspberry Pi has far more power.
If you have so much experience with class D then the proof will be in the pudding. But it better be good, and based on ASIC's if you want to compete in today's market. We haven't even seen what ESS is coming out with yet. This will be the next big contender.
When I listen to tubes all I pickup on is the loss of resolution, high noise floor, and often buzzing sounds coming from the speakers.
This just proves you have no experience with a half-way decent tube amp. Maybe instead of postulating nonsense here, your time would be better spent gaining real experience with designs other than class D or Icepower.
I’m sure my post will get deleted again by admins but I really think statements like this fall under the category of marketing for personal gain. Am I the only one who sees what’s going on here???
Yup, don't accuse anyone of marketing, especially any of the insider members, regardless of their obvious, blatant tactics, your post will be deleted.
@helomech you are spreading false statements base on ur feeling not facts! The Devialet as I remember is not a pure class D and has their own design
False statements? Sorry, the Devialets are in fact class D. Their integrateds have a class A preamp section that attempts to smooth over the typical class D sound, though based on my auditions, MY OPINION, is that it wasn't successful.
My class D sounds incredible to my ears and cost me 2k,
How much is the entry level amplifier you make please ?
How much is your reference amplifiers please ?
I'm glad that works for you! High end audio should be fun and musically satisfying. But high end audio though is not about cost, its about getting the music to sound real, IOW intention. I find that on these forums, audiophiles often use the same words to describe what they hear, but there isn't any standard to allow them to express the degree of their experience. So its all relative.
Because high end audio is about intention, the idea of a 'reference' amplifier strikes me as a bit odd. Shouldn't all the amps one makes be capable of 'reference' performance?
But to say that today’s class D isn’t mature, without any experience
with today’s class D, doesn’t hold much weight. Especially for me since I
do have experience with today’s class D.
To imply that I don't have any experience with class D doesn't hold much weight either, does it :) I'm pretty sure you've not met me. You've not been to our shop, not been to my house... pretty bold, don't you think, to make an assumption like that??
I’ll also note that currently the only turnkey Iceedge based amplifier module is the 1200AS. However the ASIC’s are available for OEM’s to incorporate into their own designs:
And there’s potential to make an amp out of these chips far better than the 1200AS, which is built to a price point. Give it a couple of years are we are going to see these chips in everything. Icepower has delayed the release of the 500AS because they are so busy working with OEM’s who are incorporating Iceedge chips into their own designs.
Well if you come out with better class D technology than Icepower was able to achieve over a 13 year span then great. I can’t wait to hear it. But to say that today’s class D isn’t mature, without any experience with today’s class D, doesn’t hold much weight. Especially for me since I do have experience with today’s class D.
You don’t have any idea about the level of research Icepower put into human hearing when engineering the Iceedge ASIC’s. I can tell you that they put much more into it than Hypex did with Ncore. Because out of the box buffer-less it sounds sensational. Where with Ncore amps you must add color with a fancy input buffer or else they sound dry and sterile.
Icepower put millions of $ and 13 years into their new Iceedge class D
ASIC’s. With a team of the best of the best engineers in the business.
So unless you have experience with this technology, you are not in a
position to judge whether or not today’s class D is mature. It takes a
lot of arrogance to assume that a company as large as B&O, with that
many top engineers, over a 13 year span doesn’t know what they’re
doing.
That's pretty funny! ... uh... I never stated B&O doesn't know what they are doing. Didn't mention anything about B&O.
Now, think about this for a moment. I filed for a patent in the area of class D technology. The patent is based on a functioning amp. Now since that is the case, is it thus possible that I in fact do 'have experience with this technology'?? I went to engineering school and while I make tube amps, when I went to school tubes got exactly one day of mention... this isn't that hard to sort out.
Engineering FWIW is all about applying the math and the principles to solve a problem. The question often becomes 'are you solving the right problem?' Personally I'm of the opinion that quite often for many designers the correct answer is actually 'no' and the reason being that if you want an amplifier to sound right to the human ear, it has to be very short on the distortions that the ear is designed to pick up on. IOW, an understanding of how the human hearing perceptual rules work, rather than how to get the specs to look good on paper. The two are different and have been for many decades.
... unless
you have experience with this technology, you are not in a position to
judge whether or not today’s class D
is mature.
As Ralph noted, he does have experience in this technology. Regardless, everyone here is free to express his opinion.
It takes a lot of arrogance to assume that a company as large as
B&O, with that many top engineers, over a 13 year span doesn’t know
what they’re doing.
It takes more than a bit of arrogance to state this when no one here has made that claim.
Icepower put millions of $ and 13 years into their new Iceedge class D ASIC’s. With a team of the best of the best engineers in the business. So unless you have experience with this technology, you are not in a position to judge whether or not today’s class D is mature. It takes a lot of arrogance to assume that a company as large as B&O, with that many top engineers, over a 13 year span doesn’t know what they’re doing.
Iceedge technology is not a 1-2 year leap for class D. It’s a 13 year leap. the last time we seen a leap this large was way back in 2011 with Ncore. And most here don’t even have experience with the best of that yet.
Its obvious that this statement is false. '2018 amps are so last week; only 2019 amps can be considered.' is the message I'm seeing here. I can point out the exact post if needed.
We have a patent pending on how to eliminate the need for dead time in class D amplifiers. Now if a little guy like us, previously unknown for even a solid state product, can make an important contribution like that (dead time is one of the major sources of distortion in a class D amp) then its pretty clear that class D is not a mature technology.
Innovation S-curves start with lots of time and money poured into the tech with little to show for it; as it gets sorted out the tech improves dramatically with far less time and money invested. When the tech is mature large amounts of time and money are needed to incrementally advance the technology. So its very obvious that class D is not matured.
Class D isn't there yet, but its obvious that if the designers can get their collective heads around what is important to the human ear and what is not, then we will see something that really is an improvement and by that I mean something that may well be better than tubes.
I fail to see how a thread topic like this advances the hobby. Audio is a subjective pursuit and consensus is fleeting at best. Yes, measurements are meaningful and quite useful but it's the ears that ultimately separate the wheat from the chaff. Personally, I use classes A, A/B, and D in my various systems. I also use tubes. System synergy is where it's at.
Well you’re on a class D thread. So expect class D amps to be the subject matter discussed. If you aren’t interested in the subject matter on this thread, it’s probably best to stick to threads that interest you. Nobody's trying to convert anyone. We are simply discussing today's class D technology for those who are interested.
“Another client replaced these 3 NC1200 based amps with 3 of my 1200AS based amps:”
@miveraaudio,
You’re not even selling 1200AS based amps....so why you are continue to promote or post. As a manufacturer/designer, it makes no sense promoting something that you can’t even furnish for any one of us to audition.
ricevs"Wherever
Mike goes is a fight. He has been kicked off several forums and made a
mess on his forum on Audiocircle. He states things so righteously that
anyone with a differing opinion wants to fight him back. A lot of
threads where he participates get deleted....including most of his
threads on his now gone Audiocircle forum circle...There is
half truth in what he says"
Ricevs I am grateful, thankfull, and indebted to you for sharing this informations to the community here on Audiogon which is the only English language audio site on which I post so I would not have known this about "Mike" had you not alerted us even though it is becoming increasingly obvious, apparent, and evident that he is a religious proselytizer who uses name calling, insult, and derision to advance his Holy Cause of which he is a prophet, a visionary, and an oracle. I think we have all witnessed this hear previously on Audiogon and newcomers such as "Mike" usually do not last long because the moderators manage, intervene, and act accordingly as needed, required, or necessary.
Nobody should be on a mission to convert anyone to anything here. We shouldn't be attacking people for enjoying some amps more than others. There wouldn't be thousands of amps on the market for consumers to choose from and enjoy if there was only one correct choice or genre, and anyone who doesn't "get it" simply needs to be converted. Please...just let us share what we like knowing it's ok to like what we like!
I’m not selling power amps anymore. So the only ones I could possibly be marketing for is my competitors. I'm just here to share the results of my research.
Another client replaced these 3 NC1200 based amps with 3 of my 1200AS based amps:
I’m sure my post will get deleted again by admins but I really think statements like this fall under the category of marketing for personal gain. Am I the only one who sees what’s going on here???
I know that one of my $1000 Icepower 1200AS based amps replaced a pair of Mola Mola Kaluga's. I'd post a picture my client sent me but you can't post pictures here.
What so groundbreaking about Class D in 2019? Your enthusiasm seems to be driven by the low cost of Class D amps. How is your $2K amp stack against Mola Mola Kaluga amp? Did you compare your current amp with any other Class D amp?
Class D offers decent low cost alternative but it will never overtake or replace SS VT/Valves amps. I am happy to see Class D co-exist with SS and Valve amps and continues to improve in years to come.
I don't think anyone's posting about class D here to convert the luddites. The vocal luddites around here probably only consist of 5% of the thread viewers. But for some reason they feel they matter the most.
Honestly, we get the message you new A’gon class D proponents have chosen to try to beat into our heads over the last couple of weeks.
Here is what you should know. We really do have a group of participants on A’gon that have interacted, for better and for worse, for a long time. And you all have not been part of it. So let me tell you directly that if Ralph (Atmasphere) told us that he thinks he has a new class D implementation that is better than anything else, a whole lot of us would sit up and want to try it. Other than that, we will all try class D when and if we feel like it.
@eliz, I appreciate your apprehension regarding class D, as there are so many versions ones head spins meaning mistakes are likely to be made, That, and maggies are current/power hungry speakers
About 5 years ago I had
Maggie 3.5Rs. Never getting what I thought they were capable of, I decided to biamp with a W4S MC 250/500 (multichannel amp @ 250/500wpc). These were older modules that never floated my boat, so I bought a Parasound A 23 for the ribbons, butit ran so hot even at idle that I knew eventually parts would break down, and it added ~ $30/mo to my electric bill. No bueno!
My room is very large requiring a lot of power. I finally sold the MC 250/500, the A23 and the maggies after blowing 4 ribbons and tiring of their room dominating size which blocked my 7 x 13 front window view of my front yard
I replaced the maggies with 95dB Emerald Physics KC IIs, which are also open baffle, but less than 4ft tall, yet they throw a similar sound stage, but unlike the 3.5s the crossover to the tweeter is seamless
I bought 2 EP 100.2SEs
class D amps
with hq fuses .These amps didn’t do it for me, but in retrospect, it is quite possible it was an IC issue.
Next up was the Audio Alchemy DPA-1 stereo amp, which is/was a an excellent amp, but not enough power in my room. I replaced it with 2 PS Audio M700s and am very very happy. They offer an in home trial
I for one am a member of Audiogon and i 100% agree with miveraudio regarding everything he/she is saying regarding 2019 class D amplifiers,
I own class D monos with Hypex NC500 and will honestly say it sounds amazing, it does not lack in any area of sound quality and only costs 2k.
My previous amplifiers were Edge NL Reference which are the same price as my 2 bedroom flat in the UK, unfortunetly their value decreased and i lost money, my flat since purchasing has gone up 50k,
Do you not get the point Class D owners are making regarding sound quality and low running costs and low purchase prices.?
If these class D amplifiers were sounding this good 10 years ago, i would not of chosen my Edge NL Reference, i would of bought a Class D.
Before purchasing my Edge amps 10 years ago, i auditioned various other amplifiers, Valve, SS, VT and Class D, but the Edge amps in my system were best, now in 2019 at 2k i have what i consider are as good as, or maybe better than, my Edge amps.
I don’t think being old make you regid for new changes! I saw in class D amps also, some users bashing new designs/models and show some strange zealous behavior toward specific models. I guess most of class D amp designers are member here but scare to talk because of PC. Btw I like your binary attitude toward amp design but most don’t, maybe because of your business interest!
["Class D is affordable and sounds as good or better the SS/Valve why buy anything else ?"]
Because amplifying speakers is tripy.
I use different iterations of all three and none can do everything the others do which becomes especially poignant when amplifying electric and double Bass.
Just bought a Zwilling 38405 wide chefs knife despite the versatility of my thirty-two year old Swiss Army knife. Obviously, they're both better than one another.
The market share the luddites comprise of is extremely small and shrinking daily. It’s sometime hard to realize this if you only use audio forums to gauge the state of todays high end audio. Because the vocal minority like to make their opinions heard.
If you want to know the real state of todays audio, talk to the worlds best audio ASIC engineers. The work they’re doing is the future.
Henry Ford once said "If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses". The people he was referring to is the luddites. They are still as prevalent today as the have been for centuries.
I've just been listening music, here it almost 1 am. I really dont know how a multi thousands dollars class A amp sounds (my last class A 300B tube amp costs just about 5k plus upgraded tubes) and neither I know how a 1200AS module class D amp sounds, but I've just got an almost religious experience. I cannot believe the sound I've just been listening a moment ago. Sweet, delicate, deep, toneful, full bodied, layered, dynamic... Just incredible. I repeat, I honestly dont know how a 50k class A amp could sound, but I cannot figure out how it could be better than this. It made me cry of emotion twice.
My system is powered by a Nord class D stereo amp (dual mono), Rev D board with Sparkos Op Amps, and I couldnt be happier.
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