Those vintage Sony Walkman lightweight headphones are worth their weight in gold. I just sold a pair for $75. That’s more than new Grados. Reason? Sound quality. Metaphors be with you. 👻 👻 👻 You might think you know something but you don’t.
Digital, Low Mass, ClassD, Less expensive, Let it happen!
Well here we are! Not that you can't go back and buy boat anchors, but now we know sound is better with low mass designs. Digital source? Yep, the tide has turned. ClassD amplification is also here to stay. Lower mass speakers, on their way back too. The audiophile hobby is getting less expensive and better sounding.
I guess we can debate this, but it's happening anyway. The hobby is simply growing up and becoming more aware of how to get great sound, and get it smart. There has been a lot of myths passed down when we only had paperback magazines, mostly for marketing, but the internet has finally caught up with audio reality. Instead of $20,000.00 components we have $20,000.00 whole systems (including all the trimming). Shoot, there are $5,000.00 systems that excel. The Trade Shows are changing, the market is changing and we are changing. Want to stay old school? No problem, there will always be old school and plenty of used gear (at least for our lifetimes). There will also be smaller niche companies that spring up to tempt us.
The hobby is entering a new era for the extreme listener. It will be a hobby of doing and exploring Electrical, Mechanical and Acoustical as equals. Components will be much smaller and more flexible, and more time will be spent on playing our whole music collection, and not just a few recordings. Many HEA debates will be making their way to the archives as the hobby grows closer to mainstream. Mainstream as in higher quality audiophile mainstream.
Are you ready? I sure am!
Michael Green
66 responses Add your response
Hi celander Correct. Every product I work with get's tuned or is made variably tunable. That doesn't mean every product gets taken apart, but most do. In many cases I'll be working on a component that one of the Tunees has as well. That way we can ping pong tuning ideas together and I usually will then make custom tuning toys for them to use or test. mg |
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I'm impressed!! Your getting it folks, good for you! The converts over to Low Mass "tunable systems" is growing. This last month I can really see the numbers of folks trading in their over built approach for one that makes more sense and better sounding. I know after years of over massing your system (systems) you kept going and going till you finally put on "that" recording and realized maybe you have been going in the wrong direction. I also know making the turn away from traditional HEA feels treasonous at first. But, your doing it and your finding your not alone. In fact your finding that most of the audiophile world has either done or are on their way to doing the same thing. here's why No where along the audio pathway can you kill the sound to restore the music. If you kill the sound, your also killing part of the recorded content. Now that you have started getting rid of the extra weight your hearing more music content. I suggest you keep going. Keep unloading those bulky acoustical products and getting rid of those big chassis and heavy cables and lets get to the core of your audio signal. Your audio system doesn't need to be as heavy as you have made it. In fact your system probably weighs 10x or more than it needs to to get the job done, and get it done better then you have ever heard before. why does it now sound better? When you start freeing your system from mass you are allowing your signal to work better with the fields of nature. Remember there are 4 basic fundamental forces, the strong force, the electromagnetic force, the weak force, and gravity. No matter what brilliant audiophile theories are thrown at you from our Agon gurus, these are the 4 main interactions that all other energies submit to on our planet. The word "interaction" is the key to it all. Interaction is the opposite from kill. Because the world is made of motion this means that things like audio have a balance to them, no absolutes. The audio signal in motion is highly influenced by it's core's surroundings. You might think of an audio signal traveling down an audio pathway as secluded by itself, isolated from all other energy, but that's not an audio signal in motion at all. The audio signal is in interaction with the four fundamentals that makes everything work. The question comes up, how far away from an audio wire do you have to be before you are not affecting it with the fundamental forces? The answer is both simple and complicated if you think too much. Your audio parts are a part of the four forces therefore it is bound by the same laws as any interactive energy conduit. Your wire for example is part of the fields that interact together with it. Your audio is in a continuum of change. Not necessarily adrift but not confined by a dielectric either. Fields move in and through and surround, all being part of the performance of the audio signal passing through. If you over dampen the conduit you dampen the audio signal (squeezing the sound). Under-dampening the signal becomes an issue when other parts are creating their own energy fields (such as transformers) and are too close to the conduit or if you have shields interfering with the conduits function. Ok I'm not going any further or we will attract attention seeking audio trolls till the cows come home. But all this info is easy to study on your own anyway. To answer why does low mass sound better is simple. Low mass interacts with the forces better because with low mass your not crowding the signal and fields as they are mingling. Low mass with less interference and more interaction gives you more efficiency. here's a test you can do Take a typical amplifier or receiver and take the cover off and remove the transformer away from the other parts and listen to how the soundstage grows. If you move big heat sinks or anything of more mass away from the smaller and more sensitive parts you'll hear a huge improvement with your soundstage space and power efficiency will go up. out for now, got folks tuning I've got to get to mg |
Yep, typing class D amplifiers into a search engine is getting more and more exciting. For my uses "Tunable" the class D move has been a no brainer. So much so that I’ve been considering bringing my own amp to market to be part of the Rev Speaker Combo. The sound and practicality of these class D amps are game changing for speaker and room designing. Very impressive! MG |
Contrived? Do you know what that word means? That Caught me, I guess my vocabulary isn't nearly as good as your cherry picking of data to suite a particular view. I think we don't realize how many more devices can play music today than in the past. Telephones, laptops, televisions. Above probably 10 watts, I'd be willing to guess that the majority of devices the average consumer listens to music with are Class D, and 99% of that from a digital source. If we want to talk about HEA as a club, of which some people may be allowed to enter and others not, then sure, let's define it as linear amplifiers only club. I'd rather talk about where most music listeners and lovers are going though, and Class D is going to be it for many of them. Best, E |
@erik_squires Contrived? Do you know what that word means? That silly boy up there is banging on about some swell of forum talk that doesn't even exist to justify the ridiculous assertion that class D is some wave of the future. Well, it's had about 10 years to be taken seriously and it's still not there judging by the volume of people talking about it. The stuff MG says is completely nonsensical when you look at the larger body of interest and conversations going on out there in audio. Class D fans really do seem to live in an echo chamber of their own confirmation bias among each other. |
Hi Erik Yep, some folks here can be funny (desperate for relevance it seems) while sitting in their sinking boat, trying to find the increasing holes to plug. Your statement..."I'm going to go with my ears instead, thank you for playing" ….I'm sure burns a hole in their souls, but it doesn't get anymore truthful and simplistic as that. It's not even an issue that we as audiophiles don't enjoy and respect eras past. I'm pretty sure all of us have had a blast exploring different design types and the designers who sport them. It's part of what gave HEA it's charm, especially before the price hikes. But, I also think most of us knew the day would come that amplifiers would become more practical and better sounding. At least this is what I always thought. It's kind of what we have been saying since the late 70's "audio is not complicated, people are". Audio is one of those technologies that was destined to be over built and then reverse course when it went too far in the boat anchor direction. HEA took overbuild to the extreme and took part of a listening generation with it. But, that was never going to last. Amplifiers are a tool, much like crossovers are. However watch what happens to speaker designing as the class D amps take over. mg |
I guess if you consider the handful of threads with a feeble number of responses on this forum alone a groundswell.... Practically nobody is talking about class D over at AudioKarma. DIYaudio has 172,000 posts in it's class D section compared to 727,000 in the solid state section and 350,000 in the Pass section. So.... over a million posts to 172k. The DIY crowd seems to be a bunch with a much more refined listening skill than most. Given that they are VERY focused on circuits instead of face plates, and they overwhelmingly prefer linear circuits, I'm going to say that class D is pretty much for those who just don't know better. I have no idea where you get these wacky ideas. They don't reflect any kind of reality. I think you're stuck in an echo chamber of your own obtuse ideas. Look around at the larger world. Class D isn't taken all that seriously and I doubt it ever will be. |
Hi Simon Excellent post! Many, if not most, audiophiles have moved away from faceplate worship after exploring for ourselves. HEA magazines and reviewers milked the pricy faceplate revolving door game for all it was worth and now it's virtually over. The more threads expose the innovation the easier it will be for both headphone and in-room listeners to move into the now. That's not to say other eras in the hobby and lifestyle was not fun, it simply means there's more available to us now. mg |
Let it all hang loose. I went from full range Fulton speaker system to Class A all tube headphone system with World’s Most Modded Oppo to a very simple battery-powered Walkman CD system with original Sony Ultralight Walkman Headphones, all in the course of ten years. In the process I eliminated House AC, AC ground, wall outlets, wall outlet plates, power cords, fuses, interconnects, speakers, speaker cables, big honking transformers, a boatload of microprocessors, isolation systems, and room treatments. And the sound is better in almost every respect. You dump a lot of noise and distortion along the way. If you could hear what I’ve heard with my ears. No more pencils, no more books, no more teacher’s dirty looks. |
but a 3K faceplate doesn't cut it for me anymore. For those that want the jewelry go knock yourself out. If I can beat a $3500 headphone amp for under $500 then that leaves me 3K for other things. Hahahahah! Well said. My plan is to spend all my money on women and stereos, then squander the rest. Best, E |
Michael, I agree 100%. Over the years I've had my share of MBL, Boulder, Plinius, Levinson, Sonus Faber, Avalon, KR Audio, on and on and on. But times have changed and for the better. Case in Point, I've mainly moved to headphone listening these days. Bought a pair of Abyss 1266 phones, Wells Audio Milo and Chord Qutest as my main headphone rig. But I also bought a Pass Labs HPA-1 headphone amp for my Grado PS1000 cans. Just for grins I purchased a sub $400 Burson Fun headphone amp and added Sparkos Labs op amps for $80 to try on the Grados. Long story short, the Burson Fun with the Sparkos op amps annihilated the Pass Labs amp in every respect. Greater dynamics and drive. The HPA-1 would run out of gas at the 12:00 o'clock position whereas the Burson would cause ear bleed at the 10:00 to 11:00 c'clock point and sound way better doing it. More detail, wider and deeper soundstage. The HPA-1 was smooth and warm but the Burson made everything come alive. I'm not knocking Pass Labs, I've had several Pass units over the years but a 3K faceplate doesn't cut it for me anymore. For those that want the jewelry go knock yourself out. If I can beat a $3500 headphone amp for under $500 then that leaves me 3K for other things. |
Oh.... Like my obscenely simple F5? Or the First Watt J2 that won Amplifier of the Year from Stereophile? Or the SIT-3 that just got a glowing review? How about the myriad tube amps out there? Those over-built amps? The ones using simple, linear power supplies and simple topologies with a minimum of components? Those are the "expensive over built" amps you're talking about that get great reviews and sell so well for fairly modest money? |
"This thread has to be a joke." and "ridiculous generalizations" You know, I think people who have not been exposed to what has been happening over the past 10 or so years in the way of amplifier innovation and those who have expensive over built high end audio products would say what you just have. Shoot if I didn't have expensive overbuilt amps to compare to I might find it a bit of a joke as well. |
Let me give a personal example of what I talked about in my post above. Where I live (small apt on the Vegas strip) visitors stop by my place. They always sit for a quick listen and talk audio as we watch the strip action. I usually have several amps right as they enter my place and they are rotated slowly in and out of my 2 systems. Before this I had a place with 6 listening rooms but I felt was too far from the Vegas Strip, convention center and airport. I mention this to explain why I have the need to rotate every 3 or so months for my work as compared to letting amps settle in the system for years. anyway current picture painted A little less then a month ago I introduced a small Class D amp to the system and as people stopped by the shock was more than a little for folks at not only how great the sound is but also how cool these folks (all audiophiles) thought the look was. The major shocker though was when I let them know the price of the new amp setup. All of them did and are doing the "wait a minute". But the most interesting reaction is how cool they think this new amp paradigm is. "Sounds as good or better, looks very cool, is so tiny". To these folks this is a very exotic, new age approach that is more sexy to them. Before I even mention the price folks like this new style better. mg |
Actually Clearthink, I was the one who said HEA is in free fall. Erik's posts have been right on the money from what I have been seeing and also testing on my own. "Bubble" is a great word to describe what HEA has created. It's something that has alienated itself (themselves)from the audiophile listener. Erik has also pointed out another very important fact, there's a difference between the HEA person and the Audiophile. Projections about the state of the audiophile can be made all day and all night, but when talking to the industry insiders themselves and audiophile clients the HEA chapter of the hobby is not so hard to figure out. The trophy buyers are getting beyond the age of buying interest and most are moving to their final system choices. These are the guys, maybe 10,000 strong who have supported the HEA revolving door. The amp of the month club has become a hard sell as compared to even 15 years ago when the decline was well in motion. Anytime you see an industry in the US loose over 90% of it's demo store fronts there's a good chance that industry is put on the endangered species list. The other side of this is a very positive one. Your average techy can now place an order with people like "Parts Express", and others, and with a little effort build amplifier systems that out perform the extremely expensive. Pose this to the up and coming audiophile, or to the more practical one, and the over built over priced components hardly get a rise. And here's the real deal. This paradigm shift is happening with or without the opinions of the Agon poster. mg |
@erik_squires Then it would be a very good idea for audiophilia to aschew the snake oil reputation that it's earned by people making insanely exaggerated claims about the importance of cables, fuses, footers, platforms, and the value crazy-expensive gear represents. The culture has changed. People don't just sit and listen to music anymore and people don't expect much of audio gear. |
erik_squires"Trust ClearThink to misrepresent an entire thread." You had declared, pronounced, and stated you're agreement that "HEA" is in a "freefall" and now you say that I misrepresented "an entire thread" and you now change, alter, and revise you're position that it is not in a freefall but a "bubble" due for "correction" so it is not possible to understand what claim, assertion, or position you want us to accept from you as fact, truth, and reality. |
Also the sky is falling, the aliens are coming and the world is ending soon so now is the time to repent! Trust ClearThink to misrepresent an entire thread. No one is saying this either. I think what we are saying is that we've been in a bubble, and it's time for a correction. Those of us who like music and the gear to reproduce it would like the market to suffer a gentle correction instead of a sudden implosion. Rather than saying it is the end of HEA, I'm saying it is time for HEA to address the median enthusiast more consistently. Best, E |
erik_squires"Trust me though when I say HEA is in free fall.
I believe you. I just got off the phone with a secret source who makes speakers, and his sources are saying the same thing." Also the sky is falling, the aliens are coming and the world is ending soon so now is the time to repent! |
Trust me though when I say HEA is in free fall. I believe you. I just got off the phone with a secret source who makes speakers, and his sources are saying the same thing. I’m just wondering how specific a number you are getting from Parts Express and the HEA land. It feels like we are in the same sort of market as SUVs were in before the gas price crisis (2009?). Gas prices shot up, the market for SUVs crashed, and several big name car makers went into free-fall. For HEA to survive, it needs a new paradigm, a new, more inclusive world that takes into account the flat or lowered buying power of the median worker, rising rent and health care costs. That’s our new economic reality. We need more commuter vehicles to excite us, not exotic vehicles attainable only by a shrinking number of listeners. I remember some one threw some shade at me by saying "I don’t see you spending a lot of money." Guilty! I am not going to. I also think I’m the best example of the middle class enthusiast. That is, I’m well read, informed, make above median income, and I’m worried about money, and not about to shell out megabucks, period, and I’m sure not going to shell out money to impress my (non-existent) friends. Thrill me, dammit! I’m waiting to be thrilled. Best, E |
Hi Erik Conversations with insiders. People who know how many amps are really being sold by the HEA companies. There are basically two numbers that get shared. One is the actual number of sales and the other is the evangelistic projections given to the buying public (speaking about HEA here). HEA designers are not going to tell the potential buyer how little they are actually selling. I as well won’t name names, but will speak in more general terms. I also don’t care to make friends mad at me. Trust me though when I say HEA is in free fall. As far as Parts Express it’s easy to see as they list their products according to buying bins. When they are selling quantities in bulk of 25-up you know they’re selling tons of these to they’re bulk buyers. Keep in mind Parts Express and other companies sell not only direct but also have many commercial accounts. mg |
Even more emails have headed my way since this thread has started which is making me wonder how many listeners have done away with the heavy high mass amps and moved to the newer approach, and what does this mean. It appears that Parts Express alone is selling more amplifiers than most of HEA amp sells combined here in the US. I'm also hearing reports that the Chinese amp market is off the charts and a big part of this is low mass as well. What's even better news is the folks who once challenged me about sound quality, after putting the challenge of low mass vs high to the test themselves are coming to the conclusion that lower mass systems not only sound better but also play more recordings. "more music content" mg |
Headphones of course are always in the equation. Most of the folks I know have all 4. Headphone, computer, theatre and in-room listening systems. Sometimes the theatre and listening are combined. Well now that I think about it they are all part of each other with more than one place for entertainment. Since Class D the look has changed dramatically as well the system function. The big amps in the middle of the room are gone. Not saying that area is empty just reorganized or the equipment is in another room. The younger generation is either looking at the soundstage or soundstage and video, not so much looking at the components. Michael |
And look at these Class D threads taking off, good for you guys! There's more, much more, but this is a good introduction to the paradigm shift that is taking place in playback for those who have not already made the move to low mass. It's interesting setting the components side by side, as in two different rooms, one room having the extremely expensive heavy system and the other room with low mass, high tech and low cost. mg also thanks for the emails |
For a point of reference I have Audio Note, Jolida and a few others, but the tube designer I've enjoyed listening to this last couple of years for amps and preamps is.... Especially the A25-M and the AP-01. I mention these as a reference to what I use to ping pong back and forth with the Class D world. I also have outstanding relationships for borrowing equipment. Nice to live a few blocks from the CES. So I'm not that far from anything I want. One thing I will mention about class D is how one mates them with the rest of the system. I have heard class D sound thin with speakers that have more components in the crossover. Class D likes simple crossovers or in my case only one capacitor. As with any type of amp design using the best speaker type match is important. If folks put a class D amp into a system use to A or AB they might find themselves coming up short. Class D is a different animal and really cool design once you find the variables that fit, like with all things audio. MG |
I abandoned tubes amps (HK CII and CV) some years ago, but having heard a very fine 65 wpc KT88 tube amp recently driving my OB speakers with a 12 ohm impedance, I am swinging back in that direction. Of course a tube amp is de rigueur, in my opinion, but there is such magic in a powerful tube amp that my SS amp can't reproduce. Flea watt tube amps make no sense to me. I demo'd a couple of mid-fi Class D amps a while back and they initially sounded quite good, but after a time, I felt that I was missing something, the something being found immediately when I swapped back my Class A/B amp into the system. Maybe the higher-end Class D amps are as musical as other Class A, Class A/B and tube amps, but they are out of my price range. MG's point is well taken that Class D amps are the wave of the future and I think they will figure it out, but at the moment I am going back to a tube amp myself. One reason I abandoned the HK Citation amps was the PITA of biasing them. With modern tube amps, it is a simple process, indeed. Plus, there are a sufficient number of new tubes available that pretty much give NOS tubes are run for their money. |
Hi Mikey! Pretty much nothing I said had anything to do with any particular amp or manufacturer. It's very easy to speak in broad generalities about these things because the characteristics of class A, class AB, and class D are universal to some extent. Anybody with eyes can look at the measurements and arrive at the conclusions I made. I guess since you don't have any argument you're going to resort to jamming words in my mouth I never said so you can weakly assassinate my character. That's not very nice, Mikey. |
kosst says "Not really sure what Pass amps have to do with the general behavior of amps in general." My answer to that is everything since kosst uses them as his point of reference. So what he is saying is, he using Pass Labs as his reference yet he doesn't have any experience with Pass Labs past the one amp that he built? Speaking for myself, if I have a question for Nelson I'll speak with Nelson or use his products for my own evaluations. Saying .02% means nothing to me. For example, tonight I made sonic changes to a recording I'm playing. I spread out the stage more and gave more presence to the cymbals. As a result the bottom end became more real and in better pace with the midrange. Am I now suppose to describe this in distortion measurements, or claim that I can only do this with class AB or D or A? Fact is I can make these desired changes with any type of amp class. I can do this because I understand how systems play music and I have learned to tune them. No magic and no measurements, simple applied physics. mg |
Hi Mikey! Not really sure what Pass amps have to do with the general behavior of amps in general. Care to explain that? It's a widely accepted reality that if you want the lowest distortion at low power levels, you want class A. A well designed class AB amp gets you close, but when the output devices transition out of their bias region there's always a rise in distortion, and for most AB amps that a fraction of a watt. Distortion then tapers a little, flattens, then rises near clipping. Class D amps do nothing of the sort. Because their constantly switching they generate the most distortion at low power levels. Go look at the measurements. And beyond that, the distortion is almost entirely higher order garbage. It's widely observed and understood that dynamics and high order distortion are virtually indistinguishable to the human ear. Amplifiers that are making .02% distortion at half a watt aren't intrinsically bad unless that distortion is high order. The ear is going to perceive that as a false sense of dynamics. It's unavoidable. That's the kind of distortion class D amps make at those low power levels and the measurements make it obvious. Let's contrast that with any single ended amp. Instead of this distortion peak at half a watt it's way out near the power limit. At half a watt it's as low as it gets and it's 2nd order. It stays low even order across the power band. It only gets ugly, odd, and higher order at clipping. And sonically that makes sense to do since dynamics should be pronounced at high volume. I can't think of any reason why you'd want exaggerated dynamics at low power levels. It's like using a loudness control. |
In regard to interconnects, way back when people discovered they mattered, I bought good shielded wire in bulk and made my own. This was wire that was used for TV stations, so you know it was the highest of quality. Word got around about my high quality interconnects, and what a difference they made. I only made them for my friends and whoever they sent my way; no, I was not interested in a new business, just doing favors for other audiophiles. One day I went to place an order, and discovered that wire was no longer available for the public, you had to be commercial in order to purchase it. No wire, no more interconnects. |
teo_audio said it all for me. I don't listen with my conscious mind, it's too easily deceived; I listen with my "subconscious inner mind" that hears into the depths of the music, it can discern which reproduction is the best. As an example; way back when people listened to the radio for music, it sounded good because they were listening to fine tube amps; especially on floor models; music lovers knew the newer SS radios didn't sound as good, but almost overnight, that's all that was available. I put SS and Class D in the same category, although to be honest, I've never heard Class D. |
Kosst, I have a question for you. How many of Nelson's amps have you owned? Many of us here are Nelson Pass fans (me included). I've owned quite a few of his designs and when reading your responses I ask myself how much experience does Kosst actually have with the equipment he makes comments about, like others here have questioned you. I have had success with A AB and D, mainly because I've learned what they do through listening. thanks Michael |
@stevecham Everybody though big class AB amps would just own the whole world in the 60's and 70's. And there are plenty of them to be sure. And if you try really hard and employ enough tricks you can get a class AB amp to sound as good as a simple class A amp, but even high bias class AB amps make more low level distortion than a good old fashioned class A amp. And class D has really only proven itself as good as a typical class AB amp. |
In 1974 the FMI 80 was a very good low-priced speaker, better than many much more expensive models from other companies.I went from Altec horns to FMI 80s (Fulton was here in Minnesota). Eventually I had a set of Js and then Premiers, before going in a different direction. But that set of 80s I had are still alive- doing background music duty at a coffee shop in NE Minneapolis. In the 90s we sought out some SET amps, since they were a sort of rising star back then, to see if there was anything we needed to be worried about. There wasn't. Class D- same thing, until just very recently. I've been of the opinion that class D was the rising star in amplification for some time, but that they just weren't fully realized. All technologies follow a price/performance curve, with lots of investment initially with little performance gain. As the technology gets sorted out, big gains are made with little money so the tech improves rapidly during that time. When its mature, only small gains are made and with significant investment. IMO only, we are somewhere in the middle to top of that curve; I don't think that class D technology is all that mature yet. The reason is that relatively small players like Merrill are able to make contributions that advance the art. Heck, we've even been able to do that. So I have to assume its still got a ways to go. At any rate, recent Class D amps are sounding a lot better than even just 5 years ago. |
