"Thin" could mean a couple of things here. One possibility is that certain frequencies, most likely in the midrange and/or upper midbase, are being suppressed. Or, the highs and lows are being accentuated, if you prefer. Another possibility is that the cable is accurately conveying the "thin-ness" of the recording, whereas most other cables are adding distortion that is perceived as "full-ness". Given the general excellence of Shunyata cables, I suspect its the latter.
Has Anyone Found Shunyata Cables Sounding Thin?
I have noticed this with the introduction of some of Shunyata's latest offerings into my system. They are great cables but they need help in my system. I run cables in series to solve the problem and the results are stunning -- while going against audio principles and accepted audio "wisdom".
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You're welcome. There are 3 connection levels with Paul Speltz auto-transformers. Paul has detailed information on his site. If you have any questions about how to use the auto-transformers with your own speakers I am sure Paul Speltz and Ralph Karsten will be glad to respond to your messages.Actually I do have experience with Paul Speltz auto-transformers with Atam-Sphere M-60. Preamp was SMC VRE-1C driving Acoustic Zen Crescendo with similar efficency as your Raidho. Overall SQ was very good but felt under powered in the bass region. With the amazing Paul Speltz auto-transformers, one wonders why Atma-Sphere offers M-60, MA-1, MA-2 and MA-3 when all they need is S-30. |
Knghifi, You're welcome. There are 3 connection levels with Paul Speltz auto-transformers. Paul has detailed information on his site. If you have any questions about how to use the auto-transformers with your own speakers I am sure Paul Speltz and Ralph Karsten will be glad to respond to your messages. |
Yes. The Shunyata Diamond back power cord I have is noticeably a bit thin in my system compared to other power cords I have. Which are DH labs Power Plus, Wireworld Sliver Eclipse's 5.2. But I have no idea why and I don't really care because my system sounds so unfairly good I am embarrassed. Well, so I guess I really do care. Anyway because my system sounds so good I go to bed every night worrying somebody may sneak in and steal it. Or just mug me for it. Who knows. But I have quit worrying about my cable being thin or overweight or ugly or anything else, as you can see other worries have replaced that worry. Got to go it sounds eerily quiet outside my place right now. |
Thanks for your opinions. Come visit some time. Theories and opinions are be important but the ears always win out over here.Thanks for the invite. If I'm in your area of the woods next time in Far East, I will contact you. I forgot to mention that Ralph was the one who recommended the Paul Speltz auto-transformers. If you do a little Googling you will discover that many people have taken his recommendation and the results have been unanimous -- the same wonderful results that my ears have witnessed in my system.Wow, Didn't realize Paul Speltz auto-transformers capabilities. So with my 88db 4ohm speakers and a 33'x25'x15' room, I can buy any amp regardless of size and power as long as I have a Paul Speltz auto-transformers? Thanks for the tip. |
I've ordered the Beethoven septet and a Andras Schiff(Beethoven Piano Sonatas Volume 7) CDs. My classical music knowledge and collection is very small compared to jazz music. So far I am attracted more to cello than violin(I do enjoy this instrument however).I have listened to some YoYo Ma and others. My favorite classical up to this point is Mstislav Rostropovich playing Bach cello music, this I really like. Admittedly my sample size for classical is tiny. There's much for me to explore. |
Knghifi, I forgot to mention that Ralph was the one who recommended the Paul Speltz auto-transformers. If you do a little Googling you will discover that many people have taken his recommendation and the results have been unanimous -- the same wonderful results that my ears have witnessed in my system. |
Douglas_schroeder, You stated "a so-so wire" when referring to top-of-line Furutech cables. Well, as I have already stated, the facts are that all Furutech products use only top-quality OCC copper -- deep cryo-ed -- identical to Shunyata cables. In an attempt to differentiate them from Shunyata cables these important facts are tossed out your window. Sorry, there are no brownie points for this sort of thing. As I said earlier I am glad to hear you have it all figured out. This is like listening to naysayers who are experts in snake oil and BS meters. We all know how this manifests itself on the forum. I remember the old days when Jack Bybee was considered a voodoo practitioner. Do you know how many people sneered and scoffed and LOL-ed at the mere mention of the name Bybee? Now Jack Bybee is venerated as the grandfather of the "tweak" era. But some people don't need to hear things -- they simply know in advance what is worthy and what is not thanks to iron-clad theories -- theories that are beyond question. As I said earlier, I'm glad you have it all figured out. Congratulations. |
Michael Borresen (Raidho) and Ralph Karsten (Atma-Sphere) both expressed concerned to me about this.Should listen to Michael and Ralph. But the addition of the Paul Speltz auto-transformers solved the problem. I am more than delighted with the sonic resultsObviously you're not delighted with the sonic results and trying to solve the thinness by adding cables in a series. You're making a bad situation worse. I Googled reviews on your speaker and reviewers are using VTL 450 and best results a Rowland 625, 300wpc SS amp. Well, it's your system so attack however you want. |
Zd542, you may be correct about that, but it seems that Sabai has been using cables in series for a long time. If you are right, and he tried the Shunyata cables, but they were not to his liking, then I'm sure you would agree the proper solution is to eliminate them, not add additional cables. All an individual is doing when adding more cables in series to correct a perceived problem is making a potentially better system worse; unnecessarily doubling the length of the interconnect, which deteriorates the sound, adding unnecessary connections, which deteriorates the sound, and mixing a so-so wire with a better one, which also deteriorates the potential. Not a good solution at all, and this is so whether in Sabai's rig or anyone else's. If his ears like what he has done, great! But it's not a better way to build a rig. A better way to build a rig is to find a better/more appealing cable and lose the series approach. |
Douglas_schroeder, You stated "I don't need to hear anyone else's rig ..." Congratulations. I'm glad to hear you've got it all figured out. But you got it right when you stated "you can't judge because you haven't heard my system". I think this is quite an obvious observation -- clear, direct and to the point. Although there may be "no solid ground" for you with "such methods and logic". By the way, here's a hypothetical situation. Your best audiophile friend invites you over. He's been doing some odd experiments, much to your surprise. He tells you he's running a cable or 2 in series and would like you to have a listen. Your response: 1. You're not interested in hearing this crap. You already know it's a crock of BS. You have it figured out already. 2. OK, why not, power up and let's give it a go. Would you choose #1 or #2? I am not taking about a "philosophy of audio" in any respect -- let alone one that is "superior" to another. I am only talking about what works and what does not work in my system. As stated clearly in the OP. Plain and simple. Zd542, You got it right when you stated "That sounds to me like he tried the cables both ways." I have done extensive testing with Shunyata digital, IC and PC cabling alone. In my system, may I repeat "in my system", the series cabling I use is superior to the Shunyata cables used alone. I suspect this may be because of the synergy created -- both cables using identical OCC copper wire that has been cryogenically treated. Series cabling with my Elrod cables does not work at all. The sound seriously degrades in this case. Knghifi, You make a good observation about the S-30 driving my speakers. But since I use Paul Speltz auto-transformers I have headroom of about 30db -- often more -- on most recordings, and headroom of 15db to 20db on the "worst" recordings. There is no distortion at all in the SQ. Charles1dad, I just loved the Raidhos when I heard them. I already had the S-30 in my system. I knew it would be a gamble with the Raidhos. Michael Borresen (Raidho) and Ralph Karsten (Atma-Sphere) both expressed concerned to me about this. And, in fact, there was little headroom when I first paired them up. But the addition of the Paul Speltz auto-transformers solved the problem. I am more than delighted with the sonic results. |
"I suspect Sabai may not have even tried the Shunyata cable alone; from the lead post it appears he has inserted it into his serial cable system and weighed in on its sound. He simply is not using the cables correctly, according to the intent of the manufacturers, when he uses them serial. Consequently, he is most assuredly off base on describing the sound of any cables he is using in that fashion." I won't speak for him, but his first post was pretty clear about that. "They are great cables but they need help in my system. I run cables in series to solve the problem and the results are stunning" That sounds to me like he tried the cables both ways. |
"Every element in a system imparts tone -- components, cables, accessories. I have no idea why there is special emphasis placed on cables in this regard." I'm pretty sure I know. When most people start out in audio, they are very surprised when people tell them that cables make a difference in sound quality. It sort of adds a bit of mystery to the experience. And not everyone hears differences in cables right away. It usually takes some time to gain the knowledge and listening experience needed to consistently pick out differences in cables. When it finally does happen, it can be viewed as an accomplishment. Something to be proud of. At that point, I think many feel, whether they realize it or not, they're more likely to engage in conversations that involve cables. If you look at the number of responses to threads, topics involving cables always have the most responses. Or I could be wrong, its just my theory. |
Hi Sabai, I had the same thought as Knghifi when reading your system description. The Atmasphere S 30 and Raidho struck me as a questionable pairing, although individually judged both are well regarded. It would seem that the S30 OTL amp could benefit from a more compatible speaker load. I haven't heard it and of course you hear it often. How did you happen to decide on this unique match? Obviously you're pleased with the sonic results. Charles, |
Actually, no one has mentioned the most damning problem with Sabai's initial complaint about Shunyata cables. (Unless someone else commented and I didn't see it.) There is no way to know the native sound of the Shunyata cable when used in series with another brand of cable. They are simply being misused. I would guess Shunyata would not agree that their cables are thin sounding, and not even Sabai could argue this when, in fact, he's using them serial with other cables. It's one thing to say, "X cable sounds thin," but it is an entirely wrong statement to say, "X cable sounds thin," when it has been used in serial, which is in no way representative of normal usage. I suspect Sabai may not have even tried the Shunyata cable alone; from the lead post it appears he has inserted it into his serial cable system and weighed in on its sound. He simply is not using the cables correctly, according to the intent of the manufacturers, when he uses them serial. Consequently, he is most assuredly off base on describing the sound of any cables he is using in that fashion. It's tough enough to zero in on the sound of a cable when used in a mix of brands; it is impossible to know the native sound when used in an unnecessary serial configuration. Mixing cable brands as well as serial use leads to one thing: a sloppier sounding rig in which it becomes impossible to isolate the actual contribution of any cable used in series. It may sound good, but not nearly as good as if proper methods were employed. I have built hundreds of rigs and tried such things, and I don't need to hear anyone else's rig to state that as a principle of system building. I think Sabai feels his philosophy of audio is superior to persons like me, and thus I don't think he will be open to such criticism. He proposes what he feels are superior methods, but when those methods come under scrutiny, he retreats to the, "... you can't judge because you haven't heard my system," defense. There is no way to find solid ground with such methods and logic. :) |
Regarding listing my system, no one will be able to do anything except speculate about my system if I go to the trouble of listing everything, which I will not do. I will say that I have Raidho C1.1 speakers, an Audio Horizons TP 2.3 preamp fully loaded, a PS Audio PerfectWave transport with PS Audio DS DAC on the way, an isolation transformer, a Monarchy power regenerator, a Shunyata Triton power conditioner, and an Atma-Sphere S-30 power amp.You have very good components but IMO, the S-30 is too small to drive your speakers properly. Also, are you using Chinese or Russian 6AS7G? From my experience, Chinese version is leaner. With your speakers and want to stay with Atma-Sphere, I wouldn't use anything smaller than MA-1. |
A designer who'd stay away from something "regardless of how they may sound" is someone's whose products I'd likely stay away from. Sound quality becoming secondary to some other criteria when building audio components is misguided. Measurements certainly have a role but the major and final determinant is "what does it sound like reproducing music". If your designer determines the sound is good but the measurements aren't, then they'll reject what sounds good anyway?? If they feel the sound is good why worry about measurements? Why do some audiophiles feel that it's somehow more intellectual to be contrary to what's so obvious. Psag when choosing equipment for your system how do you judge its worthiness for your home listening pleasure? Does listening matter in your decision making? Just curious. Thanks, Charles, |
Sabai, thank you for giving some info about your audio equipment. I find it interesting that you use an Atma-sphere amp in that its designer has frequently stated that properly designed balanced I/O should eliminate the differences in how cables sound in a system. Obviously, that's not the case for you. |
Cerrot, "I know I have not heard your system but if you tell me you put water in your engine instead of gas, I would not need to hear your car to know what you have." If you Google water-powered engines you will discover some amazing things. Congratulations. Glad to hear you have everything figured out. By the way, here's a hypothetical situation. Your best audiophile friend invites you over. He's been doing some odd experiments, much to your surprise. He tells you he's running a cable or 2 in series and would like you to have a listen. Your response: 1. You're not interested in hearing this crap. You already know it's a crock of BS. 2. OK, why not, power up and let's give it a go. Would you choose #1 or #2? |
It totally defies logic (to us streight line guys) that adding cables in series would add anything but distortion and signal loss. Mathematically and physically, its an impossibility that the cables in series would not compromise the transfer of signal through that nonsensical configuration. This is one I need not listen to. My brain can easilly figure out what it does. If you are so adamant that it sounds "better", its only because you have problems somewhere else, where this capacitance nightmare is actually either high pass filtering or low pass filtering something. I know I have not heard your system but if you tell me you put water in your engine instead of gas, I would not need to hear your car to know what you have. |
Omsed Every element in a system imparts tone -- components, cables, accessories. I have no idea why there is special emphasis placed on cables in this regard. Perhaps because they are easier to add and subtract in a system which leaves them more vulnerable to the accusation of being agents for tone control. True, some people may focus on tone when looking for cables for their system. But for me, cables are just another element in the system. They contribute to tone, but also to detail, sound stage and imaging and all the other sonic parameters. |
Years ago I worked with a really nice deaf woman named Janice, we became good friends. I invited Janice to a BBQ/party with other friends and family at our home one evening and after a while I observed Janice walking around with drink in one hand and a beer carton in the other , intrigued I enquired of the box . In sign she responded she could feel the music through the vibrations in the box. Is what Janice perceived subjective, the answer is surely yes although would Janice have got stereo with box in each hand. I personally take notice of live music both live naked acoustic and with amplification, this is my reference, I have to rely on my memory of those events to select my components and voice my system. My goosebump moments I think are when my head and heart tell me I'm getting close. You might find this interesting if you havn't seen it, thanks. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYTlN6wjcvQ |
"Zd542, you don't know whether it's true or not because you don't have the knowledge base to perform the act of reading a musical score. Others may simply know more than you on this subject. Though I do like your point about the steak." Have you no sense of humor? Yes, your point is valid. I think what some of us are suggesting, is that how we perceive music is the result of multiple factors. I say use your head. This allows you to use your ears because they're attached to your head, but also allows for the use of your brain, as well. |
I'm not downplaying the benefits of having working ears. I am simply highlighting the primacy of the brain in experiencing music. A person can experience music whether the stimulus is aural, visual or conductive vibrations. The stimulus doesn't even have to be external; it could just be a mental image of some music. Some people can dance to the music in their head and some cannot. Some suggested reading: http://www.lifeprint.com/asl101/topics/music02.htm https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080120003517AAsLIcg http://gapersblock.com/transmission/2010/07/22/beyond_vibrations_the_deaf_musical_experience/ Zd542, you don't know whether it's true or not because you don't have the knowledge base to perform the act of reading a musical score. Others may simply know more than you on this subject. Though I do like your point about the steak. |
10-11-14: Charles1dadDon't waste your breath, nothing is obvious to Onhwh61. |
"10-11-14: Onhwy61 Deaf people can enjoy music. Deaf musicians can even create new music. The human brain is where music is created and comprehended, not the ear. Read a musical score and tell me it's not true." It's not true. I just tried to do it. Honestly, though, I don't know how to read music, so that may have been a factor. It's not in me to quit either, so I expanded on the idea and tried something I already knew how to do. I ate a steak in my head. So much for that. I'm still hungry. You may want to rethink your approach before someone goes deaf, or starves to death. |
Hi Onhwh61, Come on now, if given a choice which would you choose? You seem to be going out of the way to downplay the necessity of ours ears. Anyway I was just trying to make what I believe is an obvious point. I don't mean to turn this into some drawn out philosophical argument. We'll just respectfully disagree regarding the "ears" issue. Thanks, Charles, |
Charles1dad, You stated "To appreciate music requires listening and in order to listen we need our ears." It's as simple as that. Of course, the brain is involved. The brain is involved in everything. But worrying about mental models makes for an intellectual exercise -- not a listening session. Music begins and ends with the ears. Yes, I noticed that the ears are attached to the brain. And therefore there is presumably some processing going on up there -- I hope. But to make this into an intellectual thing about mental models distances this from the music and the listening experience. And the further away from the ears the discussion drifts the further away it moves from that experience. We can get into all sorts of intellectual discussions about psycho-acoustics and where the music actually is -- in the room -- in the brain -- in the ears -- and how we perceive music. And how we may not be able to trust our ears, or to fully trust them, or how we cannot trust them in this or in that way. And we must therefore doubt what we are hearing. But this solves nothing. Because it all does come back to what we hear -- with no second guessing or intellectual intervention. Otherwise, listening becomes either an intellectual exercise or a game that begins to sound like the old Abbott and Costello "Who's on first, what's on second" routine. Some people may prefer an intellectually-informed music experience. I prefer a music experience on the feeling and emotional level. Regarding listing my system, no one will be able to do anything except speculate about my system if I go to the trouble of listing everything, which I will not do. I will say that I have Raidho C1.1 speakers, an Audio Horizons TP 2.3 preamp fully loaded, a PS Audio PerfectWave transport with PS Audio DS DAC on the way, an isolation transformer, a Monarchy power regenerator, a Shunyata Triton power conditioner, and an Atma-Sphere S-30 power amp. I will not list all my cabling except to say that I use mostly Shunyata cables in series with my own DIY cables that feature some of the best Furutech wire and connectors. I have the prototypes for 2 new products in my system. This information is proprietary. There are also other things I do that I do not care to divulge. |