Help! My system is very bright it hurts my ear

Get some good Cardas Copper cable Gold reference its older stuff but it will warm your system.  The tubes are good but can be different not 'better' different.  Try to get some Mullard E88CC the oldest versions you can get.  DO NOT get CV2493 I love them but they are sparklers.  Get rid of the Aragon, yes I know it's only on the bass or woofers but its dangerous to have around.  I would suggest getting Quad amps tube amps of course or Leak amps.  Finally get rid of the little Quads and trade up tp the big electrostats what number 898 or something like that.  Also try vinyl.   Best of Luck 

$200 spent on room treatment will make a much larger difference than $100,000 in cables. Treat your room.

Put panels at first reflection points, add a rug for the floor reflection points. Put some absorbing stuff on the wall in front of you or behind you to kill slap echo. You won't even recognize your system after doing this.

You're wasting your time pursuing anything else.

I don't see how the Aragon could be causing a brightness problem when it is playing on the woofer. Try using just one amp at a time, either one, with the high and low frequency terminals jumpered. If the amps are not matched to each other, that could lead to a tonal imbalance. Bi-amping is not as easy as just using two amps on a speaker, unless the amps are identical or you use something like a dual amp balancer. Don't spend any money on this until you have tried only one of the amps.

@fatgosil,
any progress yet on finding or fixing the brightness issue?

It's  about fine tuning your system.
You don't necessarily need 
to buy new components.
I would emphasize concentrating
on better cabling and a better power
conditioner. ( I would highly recommend
Acoustic Revive any of their models ).

I'm speaking from my experience.
I live in the inner city of L.A. walking 
distance to Dodger stadium.
In my case it was more than brightness
but severe RFI and EMI due to an
AM broadcasting station with 6  200 ft.
antenas on a hillside.
Well I got it down to zero and without
compromizing my systems resolution.

I would also like to recommend: 
Akiko Audio tuning sticks &
Kemp Electronics SR plugs.

Nevertheless, best luck,

Xavier

Change the fuses.

Interesting read for sure.  I would have the same issue with various brands of speakers.  Try going to your local shop and sampling the music on their system to see if you have the same issue.  Of course, many suggestions provided make good sense as well.

I would suggest, starting with treating 
your ac.
Get some good audio grade outlets
I use Maestro (these are under $100.00
and outperform those twice their price).
Synergistic XOT's attached at your 
speaker terminals, do a good job in 
curbing brightness.
A good power conditioner, one without 
a transformer in my opinion should do
the trick. 
Grounding your component, where buy
on placing your ear to you speakers, 
it is black, like if your system is turned off.
The proof of what I am saying is just 
listen to your system in the mid afternoon or evening, and then listen
at midnight.
You will notice a greater clarity in the
music and a much beter base response
without making any changes.

Well I hope this helps.

Best regards and happy listening,

Xavier






evening, then listen to it at midnight.

Asking why a system is too bright is like asking a mechanic why a car won't start.  There are so many possible reasons that it would take a book to list and explain them all. 

Don't worry. Most Systems are bright and hurt... But most like that. Especially when it was expensive to reach that level.

Good catch waterzlife,

also in the Techradar review,
"Turning it up makes the mild bass and treble excess a little obvious"
and  "  as it does mean the 22L2 will have a sonic character that's subjectively significantly brighter than average. "

I believe the Quad 22L2  mixed with Pop music, glass table top and big mirror at the end of the room adds significantly to the problem, especially if the Pop music is turned up loud.

Big Oriental Rug, Thick. 
Buy about 5 boxes of Owens Corning 703
Mullard tubes-tone down a system like no toher
Dedicated lines-electricity pollution gives a frenetic edge to an otherwise nice audio signal. It probably won't matter what you do until you get the "noise" out of the signal. .Clenaing up the signal was the most significant shrillness eliminator I found.
If you were to drop in an acoustical ceiling a lot would change also.
Unless the room and electricity is right a neutral or even warm system wil sound wirey and bright.
Good luck, I can tell it means a lot and wish you success.

Maybe it is just a "code 9.5 " problem. Meaning the problem is located  9.5 feet in FRONT of the speakers.

This very scientific diagnostic tool should be the very first step taken in solving MANY hearing-related issues. Total investment: $ 7.29 ;)

http://www.walgreens.com/store/c/walgreens-ear-wax-removal-kit/ID=prod6100589-product

You can try focus rings from Russ Andrews or another supplier, it is a cheaper tweak easily audible that try to remove side dispersion on tweeters.

Hello fatgosil,

You are on the right track by using two amps. You do need to make sure that all the system is connected and working. We can help you
but first we need to know a couple of important answers. I have seen the questions but am not sure if you gave answers to all of them. 1) Did you hook this up yourself? 2) Did you remove the connection bars that connect the woofer to the mid, tweeter for single amp use. 3) The amps need to put out the same power with the same input. The Aragon puts out 1W for .12 v and 200W for 1.7 V. I could not find the GA SE40 spec for this. Do you have this info and can you tell us? The reviews of the Quad 22L2 say that it is a little base shy.This gives a more detailed and brighter sound. If the GA amp can deliver let's say 2W for the same input then your mid, tweeter will be playing 3db louder than the woofer. This will make the speaker sound even brighter. The GA amp is single ended and as such it is easy to overload. It has problems below 100Hz and 2-3k (your speaker X-overs) It could be having problems with the load. It only puts out 15W in the mid and 7W in the low end. This can be fixed! 3) Did you put back the bars when you tested the single amps. And did you still hear the bright sound with both amps. Please let us know how you are doing.  We can work together a step at a time to  solve your problem. I do not think that you need to change anything in you system. Just make some adjustments.  My Best

i had the same problem in my room , what helped with my bass and less harshness was to not hook up the speakers to the highs , or by amp , but to use the bottom terminals 

Fatgosil, did you say your room is 20' X 60' with 20' ceilings and bare walls and floors?  Wow--your room is an echo chamber.  Can you partition off a smaller listening area?  

... and just HOW did you end up with this Hodge-Podge of endless equipment?

... didn't see anything about how far away from the speakers you are listening... are speakers tilted in/focused on listener?... are speakers level or tilted up/down?, and level side to side? is this brightness when you are sitting ( what is your ear height in relation to the tweeter height?), standing, moving around in the room - or at all times? When sitting - is there anything behind you or is it open?... I don't think your problem is an equipment issue (except for the weirdness of the bi-amping with your speakers) since you've done some swap-outs...

I know my quad 22l2 is kinda bright....I was thinking buy a new pair of the new elac uf5...any comment...or should I...pretty good rating n review

Favor.... not gavor. Ha

As you can see , it could be several things. Since you're new, the best advise is read here is to simplify your system. Start with one amp and see how it goes. Then the other. The thing with running 2 different amps is you need to make sure the gain in each amp is the same. Very important. If the gain in the amp running the tweeter side is more than the amp running the bass side then naturally the balance between the high and low frequencies is going to gavor the higher side.... resulting in bright sounding system. Carpet is another factor. Lay a rug if now carpet. Lots od windows could be issue. Anyway, simplify your system and then tweak it as you gain experience.  HAVE FUN 

Thanks guys...man, a lot of good info.....I would consider every possiblity

It's the Quads.   Several reviews I read said they were bright...here's one from Techradar..."At the same time, though, there's no denying this speaker also has a brightness that's rather less welcome. Expensive models with advanced tweeters and costly crossover components often get away with this, but the 22L2 isn't one of these, and while the treble provides plenty of fine detail, it also sounds rather insistent."  

Oregonpapa might be right... have your ears checked first.
Second step would be: find all the blankets, towels etc. you can find and cover every hard reflective surface in your listening room to see how much your room interacts unfavourably with your set.
Good luck!

I'll vote w/ugamotz...quantify the problem first, Then apply solutions.  Some of the previous suggestions will be potentially applicable, But a little practical knowledge up front will minimize chasing 'audio gremlins' of a more subtle nature...begin at the beginning...*S*

Unfortunately, most of the advice you've received is idiotic. You need to start with the basics. Show us the frequency response of your system!!! Get a CD that has a pink noise track on it. (i.e. Stereophile test CD). Got an iPhone? Get the app called "analyzer" for $14 bucks. Then show us what your system response looks like at the listening position in response  to pink noise. It's just stupid to recommend a solution to your problem without making the correct diagnosis. A frequency response is the first place to start. 

Room treatments are a big plus but just in case no one has made this suggestion,  adjust the crossover frequency and LFE in puts through your pre amp. Personally I'm a tweaker running the same audio / video file until I get it right. You may find that helpful. 

Audiolad, I agree that Canare makes excellent cables, and use it myself (StarQuad). But I think that it's too neutral for the OP - what is it, about 200 pF per metre? I think that the OP needs more than that, like a box store interconnect, and a selected (but still cheap) speaker wire.

I would highly suggest you replace that high end cable you probably paid to much for and replace it with Canare.  It has the ability to leave the detail and remove a considerable amount of brightness.  One system has Mogami, and my old Swans M1 (HiVi F5 with Planar Tweeter) speakers loves it, but my new DIY speakers (HiVi F5, with a Fountek ribbon seem way too bright with the Mogami (one of the truest interconnect cable you can buy).  I moved it to my other system with Canare, and the brightness disappeared but the detail did not.  In the past, I just bought good cable and didn't think about the affect, but now I pay close attention to what I use.

Many times tube systems invert the signal. Try swapping the speaker hook up by changing the positive to negative on both speakers to correct the polarity to an even number. See if that helps the sound.

I concur w/ this panel. There are some very good suggestions here.

Also, tilt your speakers up a few degrees.  Easy to do and worth a try.

Try a pair of VB1s from Spatial Audio.  There is a free evaluation period so no risk.  You can just send them back if the don't help.  

fatgisil ...

I hate to say this, but your problem may be with your ears. I had friend who had the same problem and every time the volume was raised above a very low level, it hurt his ears. If I were you, I'd go to a doctor who specializes in hearing/ear problems and get yourself checked out, then go from there. 

OP

Try some inexpensive cables - both interconnects and speaker wire.  Definitely no silver.  Not sure what dac(s) your equipment has but to me, ESS dac chips sound more bright than Burr Brown chips.   

Hello Lowrider.

I think that the very best thing is to get the OP quickly and cheaply to a good place, where he is motivated to find the root cause. I certainly agree that the root cause is the big prize, but it may also be a big challenge.

Should have mentioned above: the best place to insert the signal isolation transformers is on the amplifier input. That removes any nasties upchain, no matter what their origin. If sound improves, and it almost certainly will, then the transformers can be moved to the CD output. If the sound remains the same, the problem is the digital source, and the OP should seriously consider an alternative, like analogue.

For example, my current analogue brightness problem is a big challenge. I am finding that two resonances were destructively interfering in my analogue front end, and when I removed one of them, detail improved, but the sound became unacceptably bright. Am currently dealing with selectively damping each one, so that I get back to an acceptable level of brightness while retaining the increased detail. I followed my own advice (above), and changed capacitors and loading resistors to reduce brightness, which was quick and cheap, because my electronics are home brew. For what it's worth, I now realize that the two interfering resonances were affecting tracking, or introducing distortion which sounded like mistracking - don't know which yet.

terry, don’t you think it would be better to find the root cause of the problem, rather than apply band-aids or work-arounds?

  @onhwy61, good question.
@fatgosil , are you aware of these tone controls and how to use them?

Your preamp has 5 band tone controls.  What effect do they have on your situation?

Lot of good ideas here, but I would start with $20. I use the trick in my system for exactly this purpose.

Buy a cheap component to act as a filter to attenuate high frequencies, known to techies as a low pass filter. Fortunately, these are readily available as plug and play components, if you know where to look.

What you have to do is pervert a cheap signal isolation transformer, which is cheap because it rolls off the high frequencies, to use as a filter. You want it precisely because of this "defect", which would be a problem in many systems - but that’s the whole point in yours. The fact that it also works to isolate ground faults is just a bonus. I use really cheap transformers ($20 for a stereo pair - the ones I use are called 1st Source GL-100 Ground Loop Isolator - and - heresy alert - it’s for car audio) to tame the brightness of my digital front end (and no, it's not a cheap one). They come with RCA connectors, so they just insert between components, with or without interconnect.

You can daisy chain them for added effect.

Cables are another very good way to tune a system. What tends to cost money in cabling is good transmission of the treble information, which is exactly what you don’t want. So cheaper is probably more effective IN YOUR SYSTEM.

What you want, for your system, are high capacitance cables (thin coax) for interconnect, and low capacitance well-separated conductors for the speakers. That specification comes directly from Maxwell’s Equations - it’s physics, not opinion. Cheaper is probably better IN YOUR SYSTEM.

You might also try some carpeting or fabric wall hangings. I use two Persian carpets on the walls - decorative and effective.

Finally, you may be hearing the electronics. One possibility is the nasty brightness of cheap capacitors in the signal path, especially electrolytics, especially if they have been subjected to a hot environment. That requires surgery on your components, but is well worth it. I have no stock electronics anywhere in my system, other than the cartridge. But that’s a more extreme solution. Try the cheap tricks first.

Regarding Bel Canto c5i, I would just say it is very good, quite top notch, as I described and might solve the problem in a fairly straightforward manner.

I've been listening to my second system in our family room that it is in more than ever since acquiring it in fall of last year.  It was a demo unit from a dealer here on Agon and cost <$1000 which is a steal for all you get.  

It is a true digital amplifier ie analog inputs are converted to digital internally and processed similar to straight digital inputs.   Amplifier is recent generation Class D Icepower which enables the output from a small package.    

Its only limitation I would cite is it is only 60 watts but that  is enough to drive most speakers very well to good volume.   It does very well with my Dynaudios which are notorious power and current loving speakers.   Very smooth and non fatiguing with those which is not necessarily the case with all good quality amps that are up to the task.

Can't go wrong to try IMHO if putting out the cash needed is not a problem.

I also run 500w/ch Bel CAnto ref1000m amps in my main bigger system.   I added the c5i based on my satisfaction with those prior.

Thanks for the reply, Al. This difference in gain shows that the OP's passive biamp is not an optimal setup. All the more reason to use one amp during this troubleshooting process as you stated earlier.

Al, the Input Sensitivity of the Macintosh c40 preamp is 250mV (at the time of 2.5V Output power) (50mV IHF).
Input impedance is 22kohm. Interconnects are unknown.
How does this match with a CDP having an Output of 2.2 Volts?

Thanks for pointing that out, Lowrider. Its significance, though, is just that the OP is probably having to use the volume control at fairly low settings within its range (at least with the Aragon amp, when used singly), but at settings that I suspect are not unreasonably low.

The 250mv and 2.5v numbers mean that with the volume control at max the preamp’s output will be 10x greater than its input, which is a gain of 20 db. That is significantly more gain than is generally ideal for use with most digital sources, but given the average sensitivity of the Aragon amp (1.68 volts input for full power), and its 200W rating into 8 ohms, and the medium sensitivity of the speakers (89 db, 6 ohm impedance), and the fact that the system is described as being in a living room with a 20 foot ceiling (meaning that the room is probably fairly large), would seem likely to be within reason. As I indicated earlier, though, I couldn’t find specs on the SE-40 amp.

Best regards,
-- Al

Do you have a source other than your CD player, such as a tuner or TT? You have a good CDP, but Amperex tubes can have an "edge" or sound bright with some CDs.

Also, if the gain of the CDP is too high for the preamp, it will sound bright.

@almarg,
Al, the Input Sensitivity of the Macintosh c40 preamp is 250mV (at the time of 2.5V Output power) (50mV IHF).
Input impedance is 22kohm. Interconnects are unknown.
How does this match with a CDP having an Output of 2.2 Volts?

@fatgosil, there are ways to improve the acoustics of your room. Use several throw rugs in your listening area, or an oriental rug.
You need wall-hangings, or better yet, some acoustic panels for sound absorption.
Don't try to fill the entire room with sound. If you haven't already, create a living space close to your system. How far away is your current listening area from the speakers?

Take a look at the Virtual Systems section and see how other members have treated their rooms. Those with systems in the living room (myself included), use rugs, drapes or curtains, plants, bookshelves to absorb standing waves which include mid and high frequencies. I have a tapestry hanging on the wall behind me and it helped reduce the brightness from my system.

To low rider...yup, living sucks...is 20x60 n carpet...concrete with laminate floor n one glass table top n a big mirror at end of living room...I know it suck...

Thanks a lot guys...that us a lot of excellent input...I will try a little at a time as time permits n some time to digest all input...u guys are great...to map man...is the bel canton c5i really that great???

Mapman may be right.  I, however, have a very bright room poker room in our sub-basement:  low ceilings, slate floor over concrete, and horrible slap echo.  It is a very bright room.  DEQX after installing half a dozen sound traps was the only answer.