Which cartridges give the greatest amount of detail? Imaging, soundstage file detail. These are qualities to consider. I know Lyra cartridges are high on that list. What others equal or better Lyras. Is there anything below, say $1500, that is in that same category? Detail with reasonably flat frequency response.
Many of us are familiar with those EMT cartridges. What is
curious by them is the output. We are used to low output
carts with probable assumption that they need less wire for
their coils. However this cart produces 0,9 mV output which
is like our ’’black swan’’.
This isn’t about detail per se, as I haven’t heard it yet. I have a Nakamichi MC-500, with a .9V output, like Nandric’s black swan. I don’t know yet if that’s sufficient to connect directly to standard input, or if I’ll still need a step-up.
But I’m curious. Does anyone know this cartridge? Even by reputation? It seems to be rare, as I find no info online.
I very much agree with sqlsavior's advice to get the Decapod version of the London pickups. It is available for the Gold and Super Gold models, the Jubilee and Reference models not needing the Pod, as they don't suffer from the plastic mounting bracket the Gold and Super Gold (and lesser models) do.
As to arms for the demanding Londons (and earlier Deccas), another approach is to use them with a Townshend Audio Rock turntable, which incorporate a damping "trough" (containing thick silicon fluid) at the front end of the arm mounted on them. The trough provides the damping the Londons benefit from (some consider it mandatory), making a damped arm unnecessary.
In regard to the detail the op desires, the Decca/Londons are legendary at imaging (depth especially), one of their strengths. Another is their astonishing immediacy, presence, dynamics, and plain ol' excitement. Their sound in comparison to most other cartridges is very similar to the sound of direct-to-disk LPs in comparison to LPs made from tape recordings. The cartridge excels at reproducing the percussive element---the attack---of musical instruments. Nothing matches the Decca/Londons at reproducing drums, the sound of a plectrum on acoustics guitar strings, a piano played aggressively. Another strength is their ability at reproducing the "texture" of instruments---the "growl" of a bow being dragged across the strings of a cello, the tip of a drumstick "clicking" on a ride cymbal, the keys of a harpsichord "plucking" it's strings.
One more recommendation for a London Decca. Its unique, no-cantilever design has been astonishing listeners for over 50 years. My Super Gold certainly astonished me. From its reputation, I was kind of expecting exaggerated dynamics and overwhelming 'slam', but what I heard was ... natural. Lifelike would be another good description. Imaging is the best I've heard by a considerable margin, able to reproduce duets, choruses and such so that one can follow each singer or instrument separately, or together, and switch between them effortlessly.
It is not the edgy, in-your-face, exaggerated-transient kind of detail, (unless that's on the recording), but rather (IMO) simply a more accurate tracing of the groove that preserves micro-dynamics as they are actually cut. Micro-dynamics like the quiver and breathiness of Elvis Presley's voice, enough to turn "Don't stop thinking of me" into "Don't stop the-hinking of me", because that's how he sang it. That's a blatant example, but I started hearing less obvious ones all over. And, when it's on the recording, it resolves into that elusive quality called "air".
At least that's what I hear on my Quads, when nothing downstream gets in the way, (like my current backup amplifier, alas). No SUT needed. I recommend getting it with a DeccaPod mounting adapter installed, at least that's how I ordered mine. Used it with Clearaudio Satisfy and Jelco SA-750L tonearms, the latter with a Yamamoto 'African Black Wood' headshell. I had none of problems or downright horror stories sometimes recounted with older models - just two of the easiest, most obviously right setups I've performed. Caveat - will hum with some DD tables, but not on my Technics SP25.
Hey BIF. I had an old Shelter 90X, needed replacing.
Got the Zephyr Star from Music Direct. Great price $1695. Worth every penny. Great sounding cart, a bit warmer than my friends Lyra Titan and Atlas. Not quite as detailed. But many of my audiophile friends here in Houston actually prefer the sound of the Zephyr Star. I even contacted Lederman to see if he would upgrade me I got so enthusiastic about Soundsmith. I still may go all the way to Hyperion, but this Zephyr is so nice, and rebuilds so reasonable, its hard to justify the extra $$$. They Hyperion is $8K.
I would like to chime in on the discussion of highest detailed cartridges, phono stages, cables, etc.
I just completed a replacement of my service entrance of the house which had a rather typical 200 amp breaker box with around 60 breakers all GE equipment. The main lines coming in from the meter outside were also typical heavy gauge aluminum and the main buss on the breaker box was aluminum. The reason for the change out was that I had been having a lot of peculiar problems with my new sound system; specifically my amps would go into over heating shut down or turning off due to lack of current under heavy loading (I do tend to play it loud in a 10,000 cubic foot room). I had been using a nice Parasound amp driving a pair of Bryston Model T's, but I thought that I needed more, so I picked up a pair of Anthem Statement M1 monoblocks which are rated at 2000 watts per channel at 4 ohms if driven by dedicated 240 volt mains, which I am doing. Even the M1's would go into protection occasionally when pushed, but not what I would call excessive pushing.
I was begging to think that I had something else going on as the house took a lightning hit which came in via the power service two years ago. I called a friend of mine who is a retired EE with Bell Labs/Lucent and formerly the US Coast Guard. This guy knows more than anyone I know about electronics. I asked him if a slight voltage drop under loading could be causing my issues. I wanted to try removing the breakers, cycling them after a hit of DeOxit 5 and a light spray to the contacts which clamp the buss. He said I was reading his mind; he felt I had a slightly high resistance issue on one or both of my lines which is causing a voltage drop when under heavy loading and that is why the amps go into protection mode. He asked me how the buss appeared in the panel and I said the aluminum was either silver plated or had a slight aluminum oxidation as is usual, but I doubt it's silver plated, so it has to be oxidation. He said "get that panel replaced! In fact get all the aluminum out, including all the main feeds from the meter" "you need to have it all changed out with copper only" Dave told me that more house fires have been caused by aluminum service entrances than anything else as the aluminum oxidizes or isn't installed properly with a proper coating of NoALOX; it all leads to elevated resistance with time and it heats up. Especially when the house is near the ocean, which I am.
So, out it all came; I had all new Siemens copper buss panels installed with Siemens breakers and new heavy 200 amp rated copper mains brought in through conduit to the panel.
Was there any noticeable differences? You bet there is! I find that I get much more output from the amps at much lower volume settings and I cannot push the volume as high as I used to or it's blistering to the ears.... plus, when I opened all the doors to the deck and really pushed it so that I could go outside, the amps have not gone into protection mode! Wow, first time. And I took temperature readings last night on the heat sinks of the M1's after hours of heavy use, they were reading around 90 degrees F on a very hot summer night. I mean they were about 5 degrees warmer than the ambient temperatures. This is approximately 10 to 15% cooler than before.
Now 'hear' is the best part: I could not believe how much dynamic range I am hearing. The upper mid range and upper range is far more present than before, far more detailed and the bass is faster, tighter and more powerful. I am amazed and when I reported this to my friend Dave, he said that of course I am going to hear this improvement as the amps are not seeing voltage sag under load, they are getting full delivery of current and when high demand for current with dynamic music occurs, they are delivering much more. The best way to describe this is that it's as if the power from the amps has doubled or more and the detail in the music is as if I just installed a $10K cartridge picking out things I have never heard.
Total cost for the change out by the electrician, $2600..... far less than buying a fancy new phono preamp and cartridge :) I cannot over emphasize the importance of using only copper mains and buss in the service entrance. Aluminum seems to very common in construction as it's less expensive and builders use it often. So if you are into great HiFi as we all are; inspect your service entrance!!
I agree with the poster who mentioned the Decca cartridges. However the tone arm used is critical - the cartridge has ver’y little damping and so the tone arm has to be very well damped. Far and away the best combination I’ve found is the London Jubilee (with its fine-line stylus) and the Well-tempered Amadeus turntable, with its golf-ball-floating-in-silicone tone arm. The sound is noticeably more detailed and more relaxed than the best digital sources I’ve tried, and streets ahead of a fancy Grado cartridge i’d Bought to copy recordings with, or a fancy MC I compared it with. in the old days the Deccan were a bit too edgy, and of course would hop skip and jump with abandon, but this combination solves all of those problems. now if only it would deal with the hole being off-center in the records...
I know that "Coreless straight flux" is something new, but the idea of making low impedance / low output MM to use with MC phono stage is not new.
@believehifi I am familiar with Excel Sound cartridges, the Etsuro Urushi looks very close to my Argent MC110 that was made in the 80’s by Excel Sound in Japan. There was also Argent Ruby and Argent Diamond version of the same cartridge (the difference is cantilever). I have 3 different Argent cartridges. Only Argent MC110 reminds me Etsuro Urushi, except for the lacquer finishing. I believe that Etsuro Urushi is nothing new, but just the updated version of the old Excel Sound top of the line cartridge from the 80’s, but for x10 price.
I am the North American Distribution for Etsuro Urushi and Top Wing.
@chakster
The Top Wing design is nothing like the Stanton. Trust me this has dethroned the greatest carts in the market. The Coreless straight flux is a true innovation.
Then there is Top Wing which has introduced a brand new tech that is called "Coreless Straight Flux" and is a MM with a low output MC like characteristics. This is the new king of the cartridges IMO.
This concept was introduced back in the days by Waltr O. Stanton in the 70s. Look for the Stanton 981LZ and 981LZ mkII (Stereohedron stylus tip), it was low impedance, extremely low output MM cartridge, it must be used with MC phono stage with recommended load above 100 ohm, but this is a Moving Magnet cartridge.
Dear @believehifi: You " sound " as a seller. That LOMC cartridge is " more of the same ", it's another contender but nothing to die for.
The Top Wing is different and comes with an innovation but at a high price. Certainly I can't say is the " today king of cartridges " and I don't know which are/is the foundation for that statement.
Here the OP ask for detail. Had you listening in your today system one of the lowest output Colibri design?
There was a PBS program about the Library of Congress called "Save Our Sounds" (I have it on video tape). They look at each LP through a microscope and determine what type or shape the original cutting stylus was. They use the same shape playback stylus as was used to cut the record. Makes sense to me. Joe
Then there is Top Wing which has introduced a brand new tech that is called "Coreless Straight Flux" and is a MM with a low output MC like characteristics. This is the new king of the cartridges IMO. Best of all you can replace the stylus for a fraction of the cost of MC and it still sounds better than a low output MC
What LP/Pressing with Charlie Watts allowed you to hear that level of detail? That's an LP I want to hear..and own!
Another question, what arm and ancillary gear up stream were you listening to?...that allowed the Decca to portray that level of detail. Just as a guess and as part of the system, are we talking of Quads here?
I do not listen analog anymore. But, when I used to sell audio I auditioned one I will never forget. If detail is what you want? Hands down. Decca London cartridge. They can be a little fussy with certain arms. I was able to hear the snare buzz on Charlie Watts snare from sympathetic vibrations with other instruments when Charlie took a pause. It was an eye opener. That you usually only hear in real life. Just Google - Decca cartridges
2048?? Yikes. I hope I make it that long but doubt I would remember which way the table rotates by then, much less be able to see well enough or stop the shakes to cue an arm. ;-)
My memory is not that good, i'm sure it will be impossible for me to remember in 2048 how good or bad was one of my cartridges in 2018.
But what i know for sure is that some of the best cartridges does not get old and still circulated between collectors and audiophiles. People who're looking for fidelity buying 30-40 yeard old cartridges because of the sound quality. FR-7fz does not get old, because it has sealed suspension which never fails.
Maybe i will find the Acutex, one of them is on ebay now, but i don't like the design of this cartridge, reminds me cheap Ortofon OM series.
I sometimes envy your level of absolute certainty about your cartridges and what you are hearing. I on the other hand am always a skeptic. My point about the grado was precisely its age since manufacture, not its hours of use. My TLZ, which used to be my favorite cartridge 30 years ago, deteriorated while in storage in its black cylinder. As to the excellence of the Acutex cartridge, get yourself an Acutex LPM320STR3, or M320, and then we’ll talk. My remarks do not pertain to any other Acutex models.
I know you like your Grado XTZ, but given its age, it is probably not advisable to take its performance as a paradigm for all other MI or IM types. (I think those Grados are more properly thought of as IM [Induced Magnet], like my Acutex LPM320 and M320.) My own Grado TLZ ain’t what it used to be. You also mentioned ZYX cartridges as being detailed; I would agree.
My Grado was NOS, never used before, and has maybe 20hrs on it now, but it’s the same age as the AT-ML180 OCC and almost the same age as my all favorite vintage cartridges. Most of them are from the mid or late 80s. I do not use any new cartridges anymore, because none of them impressed me much and i will rather continue my search of the reasonably priced vintage rarities than will buy any overpriced new MC, MI, MM of today.
Grace ASAKURA ONE waiting my audition, that was top of the line MC cartridge, signature model of the founder of Grace (Asakura-San) from the 80s with Boron cantilever.
Never tried this ugly looking Acutex cartridges with extremely high compliance, but i doubt it can beat Audio-Technica AT-ML180 OCC with so many unique features in its design, the AT-ML180 goes for $1.5k easily on ebay nowadays, it’s more expensive than ART9. I remember Raul sweared on those Astatic MF100 and MF200 which are in fact mediocre cartridges compared to Glanz MFG-61. "Cartridge of the month flavour" has faded away.
@viridian Thank you. I think I have found a cartridge that is meet, or at least is very close, to my wants. Getting close to completing breakin on a Clavis Da Capo that Soundsmith "rebuilt" with a Boron Cantilever and a Soundsmith line contact stylus. The warts of typical of a Clavis DC are missing but the transparency, details, soundstage and imaging are there. Instruments are clean without induced bloom or edgeyness. No zingy strings, no blooming cello or harp.
Dear @lewm : One critical subject that all have to take in count when reading any single post coming from every one is to look from which system/room whole items came that post because experiences based opinions coming from any one of us depends on what we listened in our system and depends too of each one music/sound priorities.
Your M320 outperforms any AT MM cartridges and other coming from different manufacturers.
""" if the tone arm is able to track the cartridge correctly, then the actual choice of cartridge is far less important. ..... properly set up far overshadows the choice of cartridge. """
that’s a no-sense post due to unknowledge level on the overall subject.
Always the cartridge choice is important and everything the same NOTHING can " overshadows " the choice of cartridge and exist facts that confirm those:
in the same tonearm with the same audio system a Lyra Etna always will outperforms the Kleos as the Kleos beats the Delos one. If we make same comparison: the Colibri always beats the Black Beauty even in a non-top tonearm.
When everything is the same the cartridge choice can makes a difference for the better or worst and as I said nothing can overshadows it but a bad system .
If not, why cartridge manufacturers marketed so different cartridge models?, not only to cover different market price level but each single models ( no matter what. ) performs with different quality level. Lyra, Ortofon, VDH, Benz Micro Koetsu and almost every manufacturer works in the same way. They don't care to other parameter or audio item that its design quality levels at a price point.
Other than the LP the analog king is the cartridge, obviously that after the cartridge every single link in the audio system/room chain is important including our music/sound knowledge and skills levels.
I don’t know why you posted: " +1 " when in your post you attested the cartridge difference with the Clavis.
Chakster, Based on your own observations, it would seem that there is a dissociation between low "moving mass" and high levels of "detail retrieval", the latter being a very subjective judgement that requires a consensus among many listeners to be taken seriously, I think. I know you like your Grado XTZ, but given its age, it is probably not advisable to take its performance as a paradigm for all other MI or IM types. (I think those Grados are more properly thought of as IM [Induced Magnet], like my Acutex LPM320 and M320.) My own Grado TLZ ain't what it used to be. You also mentioned ZYX cartridges as being detailed; I would agree.
Dear @bpoletti :
Highest detail ?. The overall frequency range is to wide to ask " detail " in all the range.
In my experiences what really make a differences for the better always are cartridge with good detail at both frequency extremes, both frequency ranges are the frame of the whole music. and taking in count both frequency extremes my choice is the Colibri by a wide margin:
Overall very hard to beat. Obviously that will be " limited " for the other audio items the Colibri is surrounded, well as any other cartridge but the Colibri is maybe more demandant than others.
Of the carts that are being mentioned I own three of them: the Lyra Delos, The ART-9, and the Soundsmith MIMIC Star. Personally I like the Delos the best, it has slightly more weight and better punch than the others, it also sounds more like real music to me. The ART-9 comes in 2nd, and sounds 90% of the Delos, just not as dynamic and maybe a little less detail, I mean a little. Finally the MIMIC Star is a good sounding cart but next to the other two it sounds a bit tame, soft and no where near as dynamic as the others. The MIMIC Star is OK, but for the price I was slightly disappointed in how it sounds. YMMV
@atmasphere +1 though I have heard some significant differences in cartridges even with the most careful set-up I can provide. I'm currently using a Lyra Clavis DC with a new cantilever and stylus (from Soundsmith) that is outperforming its predecessor OC9/II. Everything downstream is the same. After hearing the rebuilt Lyra with all the additional detail, I became interested in other carts that might provide as good or better detail. Since that time, I have decided to just stick with the Clavis DC as long as it will work to its current level.
I agree that some less expensive cartridges can provide superb performances, and also that careful setup and arm matching is critical.
In my system, cartridge anomalies, arm resonances, tube warmth, and
similar often appear in my system as "bloom" at various frequencies that
distorts instrumental timbre. Some listeners like that distortion and
call it "musical" or other descriptions that are used to rationalize
distortion.
+1 I prefer tubes, but have the same concerns. I find that if the tone arm is able to track the cartridge correctly, then the actual choice of cartridge is far less important. IOW the tone arm/cartridge combination properly set up far overshadows the choice of cartridge. On this account, I've seen some pretty inexpensive cartridges keep up with some really expensive ones effortlessly, all on account of the fact that the tone arm really did its job right.
Thank you very much. That seems like a great answer. I appreciate it. Best wishes for finding a cartridge that is consonant with your listening preferences.
I am, unfortunately, very sensitive to timbre particularly in cellos, double reeds and violins. Yes, there are variations in some equipment used to record the instruments, but in my opinion less so than in cartridges and arms.
In my system, cartridge anomalies, arm resonances, tube warmth, and similar often appear in my system as "bloom" at various frequencies that distorts instrumental timbre. Some listeners like that distortion and call it "musical" or other descriptions that are used to rationalize distortion.
Mr. Poletti, thank you I appreciate your answer. However I was not asking if you could detect minute differences in the sound of components. In my experience that is the easiest part.
What I was asking is, once you hear a difference in two components, apart from gross colorations, how can you determine which is more accurate?
I think that you referenced instrumental timbre and that it exposes the accuracy of the recording. But it can only do that as seen through the distortion spectra of the reproduction system. You can’t listen to the timbre of a recording without playing it on a stereo. The distortions in the recording chain, and those in the reproduction chain then being additive.
How can you seperate the two, and even if you could, how could you be sure that the reproduction chain was not simply adding complimentary colorations to the recording chain making it sound more “accurate” and lower in distortion?
As an example after running the mike feed though a solid state mixing board even order harmonics may be cancelled and a reproduction chain rich in second harmonic distortion may yield a waveform that is closer to the original mike feed. Or a more complete representation of the original spectra of the mike feed might be a better way of putting it.
To say that you want the lowest distortion is laudable, but is this determined by listening? If so, complimentary distortions may skew the results. Or is it determined by measurement, and if so, which distortion measurements and how do we know that we are measuring the right things? My apologies in advance for asking so many questions, I’m just interested in how each of us comes to the conclusions that we do.
"Is "closer to the music" a more accurate reproduction of what is in the groove or a "romantic" rewrite?"
It is more involving reproduction of music on vinyl media. May be caused by synergy of the arm + cartridge and all components. The moment when you’re there with a smile on your face, when everything is damn good.
Victor Direct Couple MC-1 is very dynamic cartridge in my system. I was aware of the sweetness of Shibata profile on Beryllium cantilever, becuase i have tried many Victor MM cartridges before. But i think Direct Couple principle is something special in this MC design. Never tried Decca or Ikeda cantilever-less models.
@viridian I listen to 99%+ classical music. Instrument timbre can expose the accuracy of the recording. And I've been a part of blind listening sessions that used two components that were identical except for a 3 millibel difference in frequency response. The same component could be consistently identified during the tests.
I prefer components with a vanishingly low amount of distortion to any distortion including even order distortion. It is why I use one particular electronics manufacturer.
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