Jazz for aficionados

Learsfool, my opinion in regard to Frank and Mel, is pretty much the same as yours; I don't get overly excited about either vocalist, but that goes for the majority of male vocalist.

Enjoy the music

Schubert, what did you think about Charley Parkers music?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OhNQCT6myRw

Enjoy the music.

Frogman, I see that you are giving direction, and guidance; that is good. Just as a good musician will not play a BS solo, I have no intention of participating in a BS thread. When this thread gets back to it's original purpose and quality of posts, I will return.

I like the quality of your posts Rok, they're constantly improving.

Enjoy the music.

Frogman, if this was a military operation, I would consider you second in command, and expect you to grab the BS posts by the horns.

When I spend time and effort researching material to move this conversation forward, and plumbing the depths of significant posts, only to have it all ignored while everyone goes off on a BS post that's not even related to this thread; I find that awfully disconcerting.

Enjoy the music.

Rok, "I'll Take You There"; this belongs in the category of good music.

"Disco Lady"; those were the days my friend, I thought they would never end.

"Rocksteady"; time to get on the dance floor.

"Do You Think I'm Sexy"; those disco days were a blast.

"Passion"; this one has the "Miami Vice" mystique.

Rok, variety is the spice of life; that play list had a lot of spice.

Enjoy the music.

Rok, you didn't even recognize that my very last post before this one, was in response to your play list that you posted on 02-07-15.

Alex I have Howard in my record collection on a guitar compilation. Here's a tune he did that I like; it's Herby Hancock's "dolphin Dance".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H906Iusn1sc

I want to thank you once again for giving us the treat of hearing another great undersung musician. Here he is live;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h76NVQjwRR0

Enjoy the music.

When there is controversy on this thread, I consider it my duty to express my honest emotions and thoughts in regard to the matter. I'll try to go back to the beginning and take on case by case.

Rok, no one said Wynton could not play; he could be considered the best trumpeteer on the planet, as long as it's someone else's music and not his own.

I could live without Ben Paterson, Miguel Zenon on the other hand was very impressive.

Salvant and Marsalis don't even belong in the same sentence; while Salvant uses old material, her treatment of it makes the old material new beyond belief.

In conclusion, it's not "new jazz", or "new musicians"; after considering Alex's post on the Dimitris Kalantzis Quartet, from Greece... it's new jazz and musicians from the good old U. S. of A.; they're too "stereotypical".

If someone practiced, worked hard and got a degree in music, that would qualify them to earn a good living and play excellently, but not to necessarily be a "jazz musician".

Enjoy the music.

My best friends brother wanted to become a concert pianist, so his parents bought a baby grand piano. Hobart practiced diligently, and every time he practiced, the next door neighbor would come over and watch him in mesmerized awe. After Hobart finished, the neighbor would sit down and repeat him note for note; that was amazing beyond belief.

Hobart went to Juilliard, got his degree in music and became a teacher. The next door neighbor became a jazz musician and was a star in St. Louis. The cat could jam, and I went to most of his performances over the years he played, until substance abuse cut him down.

I never heard Hobart play, and my friend, his brother said he was into classical and taught music but didn't perform. Over the years Hobart lived an affluent life style; skiing, vacationing in Europe, bought a boat and retired in Florida after he left New York where he taught music.

Although being a "jazz musician" never came up in Hobart's life, the fact that he never performed tells me he couldn't have been a jazz musician even if he wanted to. I said all of this to say that as fans we don't seem to realize how special a good jazz musician is; they're born, not made. No amount of study or practice will enable a person to improvise at the level of a good jazz musician, and no matter how financially successful some other musicians are, a jazz musician knows within himself that he can do something very few people can do, and no way can they learn how to do it. Financial success does not equate to being a good jazz musician and being able to rapidly improvise good sounding music; "either you got it or you don't".

Enjoy the music.

Acman, could you please put more time into your posts; I don't know if I agree or disagree, they leave me hanging.

Enjoy the music.

Rok, I listened to Geri Allen and I thought the music was quite pleasant; it was kind of like "Cream of Wheat" or "Oatmeal", both are pretty good if you put enough butter and sugar on them.

Enjoy the music.

Frogman, I put "Random Abstract" by Branford into the player, and that's just how it sounded, both random and abstract, and that also describes my musical day so far, I'm sure tomorrow will be better.

Enjoy the music.

Acman, although that post was short, it communicated very well; I do remember Chauncy Gardner. However, I believe you are denying us your vast storehouse of knowledge.

Enjoy the music.

We're going round and round like a dog chasing his tail in regard to new music VS old music, and new musicians VS old musicians. The reasons for this have absolutely nothing to do with the music or musicians; I'll explain.

The primary reasons are economic; back then, there were many more "Juke Joints". While the term "juke joint" is normally used exclusively for "blues joints", I'm using it in reference to all small clubs that hire live entertainment. For example: I saw Phyllis Diller and Richard Pryor at such a small club before they became famous. Not together or on the same night, but at the same club.

Albert King, Ike and Tina Turner, worked the same juke joints in St. Louis. I saw them many times before they became famous; the same for Grant Green. I saw more dynamite jazz groups than I can shake a stick at. My point for bringing this up is that musicians, and all other entertainers have to have a place to work while honing their craft. The number of "juke joints" have shrunk by at least a "gozillian"; now you get my drift.

Since you can't resurrect the dead, when it comes to live music we don't have a choice; but that's no problem for me, because live music is usually better than recorded music, and new musicians have more formal training than yesterday's musicians from what I can gather. (If you kant git what you wont, like what you can git) That's what Rok told me, and I know he knows.

Enjoy the music.

Rok, Frogman is referring to the summer that my friend the professional musician lived in my apartment. He never practiced or expressed the desire to practice, not only that, but an organ would not have fitted in my apartment. (he played organ since childhood in church) Since he was playing three gigs a week of hard driving improvisational jazz, he didn't even know what he was going to play, it's for certain there was no need for him to practice.

I drove him to every gig ( still had the infamous duece), and was mesmerized on each set. The intensity of the music (The dynamic range of live organ can never be recorded)
was in stark contrast to him playing with his eyes closed and a sublime look on his face.

As you stated, the "No practice" was a straw-man, it's for certain no one could get to that level of proficiency without practicing. I understand Frogmans wishes and desires in regard to old and new music, but it is what it is, although when it comes to live music, you have to like what you can get; that's your only option.

Enjoy the music.

Alex, when I heard "South Side Soul", I was immediately transported back to another time and place; 63rd and Cottage Grove in the late 50's. That's when you could see Dinah Washington, or Ahmad Jamal going to or coming from the Pershing Lounge, it was on 64th and Cottage where he made his first famous album, "Ahmad Jamal at the Pershing".

This was the hippest neighborhood on the planet. I lived with my cousin on 65th two blocks east of Cottage Grove, and I liked to stroll Cottage just to see the beautiful people. I remember seeing Dinah Washington's Lincoln Continental with the spare on the trunk parked in front of the Pershing. This car was so exclusive that only celebrities owned one.

John Wrights name was forever changed after he made that album, he's now known as "South Side Soul". The magic of music is too incredible for words; how can music communicate the vibrancy of a neighborhood that was a magical place which is no more, it only lives through his music and our memories.

Did you experience the magic of "South Side Soul" and the streets mentioned, or did you just luck up on the album?

Enjoy the music.

Frogman, whether we agree or disagree, it will not affect your being second in command.

From the time we began to hear, our minds began the process in regard to what kind of music we would like. If you lived in the rural south, there's a good possibility you would like C & W. Take your pick of the musical possibilities you would prefer if you lived in a northern city; but my point is, we don't decide independently in regard to our musical preferences, they are programmed.

Right now my radio is tuned to 88.7, that's a jazz station, I can hear it quite clearly. If my radio was tuned to a classical station, regardless how clear the signal came in, I would not be able to hear it as well because my mind isn't programmed to receive classical music as well as it is jazz. We can only hear the music our mind is tuned to receive; consequently arguments in regard to different genres of music are pointless when it comes to which is the best.

Enjoy the music.

Schubert, have you thought about starting a new thread?

The soloing on Moanin' by Morgan and Timmons is just awesome! Those are the details we tend to forget. Morgan is one of my favorite trumpet players. I love the way he bends notes. My next favorite was Blues Walk.

On most of my records, it's the aggregate contributions of the individuals that make the whole album. That's true on this record as well, except on the cut "Search For The New Land", it, the composition takes center stage, and the musicians become actors playing their parts in a play. This music was way ahead of it's time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NfrJmye2jus

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1CilMzT55M

Frogman, A professional jazz musician lived in my apartment for 3 months and he never practiced. I wont mention his name because every time it's mentioned, some clown pops out of the woodwork with garbage. In regard to,"If I don't practice for a day, I know it. If I don't practice for two days, the critics know it. And if I don't practice for three days, the audience knows it".

For an entire summer, I chauffeured him and his lady friend to gigs at least 3 times a week. We were only at the apartment long enough to take care of the necessities of life, the rest of the time we were on a set, or digin a set. What astounded me more than anything, was when we arrived an hour before show time, and he was introduced to musicians he had never played with before. They would talk this musical gibberish, that meant absolutely nothing to me, "All right Mac, when I come in on the... and hit a chord on the piano, point to the drummer who seemed to know what he was talking about and go "Wham bang". They would do this for an hour, while I watched in fear of every thing turning out lousy.

When they played as if they had been together for years, I was all ways truly astonished. Those performances never failed to mesmerize yours truly. Each performance was uniquely different from the last one. I had surgery that summer, and he entertained me during my recuperation time, with stories about his life as a professional jazz musician; that was an unforgettable summer.

Rok, Frogman is referring to the summer that my friend the professional musician lived in my apartment. He never practiced or expressed the desire to practice, not only that, but an organ would not have fitted in my apartment. (he played organ since childhood in church) Since he was playing three gigs a week of hard driving improvisational jazz, he didn't even know what he was going to play, it's for certain there was no need for him to practice.

I drove him to every gig ( still had the infamous duece), and was mesmerized on each set. The intensity of the music (The dynamic range of live organ can never be recorded) was in stark contrast to him playing with his eyes closed and a sublime look on his face.

As you stated, the "No practice" was a straw-man, it's for certain no one could get to that level of proficiency without practicing. I understand Frogmans wishes and desires in regard to old and new music, but it is what it is, although when it comes to live music, you have to like what you can get; that's your only option.

Frogman, I'm saying the same thing in both posts; "he never practiced during the summer he lived in my apartment".

These are posts from the past that I decided to revive.

Enjoy the music.

Frogman, I must admit, that never practicing on the first post was misleading.

Enjoy the music.

Things are getting more complicated by the minute. I recently bought a CD, "Kalenia" by Oran Etkin, he's a new musician whose music falls under the classification of jazz. I like this CD, but some may not consider it to be jazz, including Wynton Marsalis.

I do not like current music that definitely fits the description of jazz. That's because it's too stereotypical and sounds counterfeit, like a rip off of old music. Since I'm not sure of what I'm debating, I'm going to temporarily recluse myself from this debate.

In the meantime I'll submit music I like; "Barboletta" by Santana. He goes under the "Rock" genre, but I don't like rock. "Has anyone seen Alice"? The last time I saw her she was chasing that White Rabbit down a hole. This is one of those days.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gIs4BppmMOs&list=PLniulnHY2D_ucgAooXFkfWDdEnWK9UEot

Enjoy the music.

Has anyone considered how pointless this debate is? To begin with we all hear differently. If you go back to that analogy I made about the radio stations, we can only receive the music our minds are tuned to receive, at the time it's tuned to receive it. I can't hear classical music very well, the tuner in my mind is slightly off frequency.

There isn't much in regard to music that's not "subjective"; consequently there is no "objective" right or wrong. Has anyone heard of the "Tower of Babel"; that's what this debate has gotten to.

Enjoy the music.

Frogman, "pointless" was a bad choice of words; however, since I have no intention of becoming a classical musician, jazz musician, or any other kind of musician, this in depth discussion eludes me, plus we're never going to reach a "consensus"; maybe that was what I was thinking. While it's always good to learn new stuff, nothing has been altered by this cornucopia of musical wisdom. I no more listen for tone and timbre, than I listen for copper or silver wire, nothing matters but the subjective feeling I get when listening to good music on a boss rig.

"Pannonica" is one of my favorite tunes, and I have numerous versions, all of which I like, but whatever is special about me and "Pannonica" eludes me at the moment.

Right now I'm listening to Harold Land, on "A Lazy Afternoon"; it's real laid back, like a lazy afternoon. The music is composed of mostly standards, and Harold communicates the essence of each one of them.

Every time somebody big came to town, all of the local musicians were on the set, and I was always seated at a table with one of them. In addition to what everyone came to hear, star performers always liked to try out new stuff, and the musicians always went wild, while I was sitting there thinking, "that's a little rough around the edges". Evidently my facial expression conveyed this to the musicians, because they always explained this "new stuff" to me, and I would think, "He needs to take that back to the wood shed, it's rough around the edges". I seem to hear differently from most musicians, and I see that hasn't changed. I never hear music in the way you and Leersfool describe it, with me it's all subjective.

Well, what's next, moving along in this enlightening conversation mode.

Enjoy the music.

Learsfool, Harold Land has one of the most beautiful tones of any sax man; check him out on "A Lazy Afternoon"

I use the word "timbre" when fine tuning the tone. For example; the three way custom speakers of mine utilize a "Heil AMT tweeter", and I had a problem with timbre between the tweeter and Vifa midrange. This lasted for years, until I hit upon Jantzen polypropylene caps.

I use fine stranded copper wire for the Pioneer woofer, copper & silver, midrange, and heavy on the silver for the tweeter. No longer do I spend time thinking about minutiae, just music; although there is the possibility it's in the back of mind, but not in front where it can interfere with the enjoyment of music.

Since we are both audiophiles, I enjoy all your comments; while I don't consciously think of music in the terms you describe, some where in the back of my mind, maybe I do.

Enjoy the music.

Rok, it's time to get back on the tracks in pursuit of "our jazz"; this is between 1950 and 1970. While "Nica" didn't write or talk much, she left us a book of photographs; that's our reference book. She absorbed jazz cerebrally, that's the only way it can be understood. Nica was sometime referred to as "The high priestess of jazz", that works for me.

I'm going to begin in the middle with someone who was never given the credit or money due, "Bobby Timmons". He was born in Philadelphia the son of a minister in 1935. From an early age he studied music with his uncle. He first played at his grandfathers church. After he graduated from high school, he was awarded a scholarship at the Philadelphia Music Academy.

Timmons moved to New York in 1954. He made his recording debut with Kenny Dorham in 1956. He became best known as a member of Blakey's Jazz Messengers. He was recruited by Benny Golson, who said he could play "be bop, funky, and a lot of other styles".

His compositions connected with urbanites instantly; "Moanin", "Dis Here" and "Dat Dere" were on the jukeboxes in all major cities, they even did a line dance called "The Madison" to some of Bobby's tunes. Although his music was put to words, it needed no words, the music spoke for itself to the urban poor.

Bobby Timmons was probably the least appreciated and most under rated musician in all of jazz. Unfortunately he died at 38 from cirrhosis. While I can't do anything about his rating, I intend to appreciate him more by adding undiscovered gems to my collection.

Enjoy the music.

Rok, you are definitely back on the track, especially with Kenny Dorham; but you ain't heard the blues until you hear them in a "Juke Joint". Albert King liked juke joints so much, I believe he regretted becoming famous; even after he became famous, he still lived in "Lovejoy, Illinois" which was in close proximity to a lot of juke joints.

Enjoy the music.

Who is Frogman? There are many Frogmen inside "The" Frogman, all stored in the recesses of his mind. When the music is resonant to some memorable experience, it will excite that memory.

Frogman doesn't make a concentrated effort to hear the music, he lets it come to him. That's when it will excite the emotion associated with the memory of some long forgotten event. That's what listening cerebrally is about.

Right now "Last Tango in Paris" is on my rig, it's the lush one associated with the movie. I see Marlon Brando and his lady without a name doing the Tango in Paris. This music excites all the memories I can associate with that movie. I made no conscious effort what so ever for this to happen, the music excited the memory it was resonant to; that's what listening cerebrally is about, it's letting your psyche do the listening.

I'll respond if this needs clarification.

Enjoy the music.

Rok, I think the Bobby Timmons Trio's are the best for focusing exclusively on his music.

The most amazing thing about his music, was it's instant ability to communicate even without words; take "Moanin" for example; somehow I heard the words before "Lambert, Hendricks, and Ross" sang it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldXi8bs6PSw

Whatever the art, the bottom line is "communication". Bobby Timmons music was uncomplicated and it communicated.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTsU_xoNyMY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lEnbXVqQ1go

Bobby was not economically successful for a number of reasons that are too depressing to go into, and one of them was drug addiction. Heroin was very expensive, and it turned a man into a slave. While some jazz musicians had such heavy psychological baggage that it's possible they would have used drugs whether they were musicians or not (Bird and Lady Day) others, such as Bobby Timmons had no such baggage, neither did Tina Brooks; I'm referring to the sociological background. I suspect the availability of drugs in New York and the influence of other musician addicts precipitated their use of drugs. One time and a person is hooked, there's no turning back, and then there's the living death before actual death. In regard to music, they couldn't play "Jingle Bells" when they got high; it always amounted to a "no show". Fortunately, that problem is not prevalent with today's musicians.

Enjoy the music.

Frogman, I can understand a musicians need to make an effort to hear the music, especially if he had to teach as well; I was referring to my listening room, a place designed for relaxation.

Coltrane, "My Favorite Things" is so timeless; it sounds as good today as when I first heard it. McCoy Tyner's solo was even better. They didn't have Eric on that set, he adds an interesting touch.

This is the third and best variation of this tune by Trane that I've heard, it never got too far out.

Enjoy the music.

Acman, I've been saying the same thing you just said since day 1.

Enjoy the music.

Alex, thank you for those superb contributions.

Rok, Blakey didn't always have control over who stayed and who left; musicians like Horace Silver, Lee Morgan, and Bobby Timmons were bound to strike out on their own.

When a jazz artist is recognized and acknowledged by jazz aficionados, that's one thing, but when a jazz artist is recognized and acknowledged by the general public, that's an affirmation of his greatness; such was the case with Horace Silver, Lee Morgan, and Bobby Timmons.

Enjoy the music.

Alex, there's nothing left of my memories but vacant lots, vacant apartment buildings, and empty streets. My memories have a very sad flip side, and I'm not sure I'll be recalling anymore of them.

Enjoy the music.

Frogman, a person who is very knowledgeable and enthusiastic about an activity, subject, or past time is an "aficionado". A person who puts a quarter in a jukebox, may or may not be an "aficionado".

All those guys were on jukeboxes in San Antonio, Texas in the late 50's and early 60's; that's not the hippest city in the world. I believe Rok, was around that part of Texas at that time. When people come into a club, have a drink and put a quarter in the jukebox, I don't call them aficionados. They were on jukeboxes in all major cities at that time; that's where I'm coming from, I don't mean the public that was looking at "I love Lucy".

I think we're splitting hairs in regard to the public; maybe I ran into a hipper "general public ". Not only that, but all those musicians were on somebody's TV show at that time, this certainly gave them a wider exposure than just aficionados.

Enjoy the music.

Frogman, The Sidewinder is a 1964 album by the jazz trumpeter Lee Morgan, recorded at the Van Gelder Studio in Englewood, New Jersey, USA. It was released on the Blue Note label as BLP 4157 and BST 84157.

The title track, "The Sidewinder", was one of the defining recordings of the soul jazz genre, becoming a jazz standard. An edited version was released as a single.

The album became a huge seller, and highly influential - many subsequent Morgan albums, and other Blue Note discs, would duplicate (or approximate) this album's format, by following a long, funky opening blues with a handful of conventional hard bop tunes. Record producer Michael Cuscuna recalls the unexpected success: "the company issued only 4,000 copies upon release. Needless to say, they ran out of stock in three or four days. And 'The Sidewinder' became a runaway smash making the pop 100 charts." By January 1965, the album had reached No. 25 on the Billboard chart. The title track was used as the music in a Chrysler television advertisement and as a theme for television shows.

Enjoy the music

Well aficionados, as much as we liked those decades, it's time to move on to the 70's, and examine that decade in detail.

There was a problem that began in the 70's, and continued on until this very day; "Is it is, or is it ain't jazz"? I might like this music, and that music; whether or not they are both jazz, I'll leave to the "jazz identifiers". While "Wikipedia" might consider them both jazz, some aficionados wont.

I'm going to begin this discussion with two artists whose music is clearly jazz. "Gato" ushered in the 70's with a new sound that blended South America with modern jazz. Grover Washington Junior came on the scene like a blinding light; while some nit picking aficionados found fault with Grover's music because he was too popular, it suited me just fine.

Let us begin with Gato; I have most of his records from 69 on into the present, and "The Third World" was the first album I acquired; it sounds like the title.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pp5XcEi8cvc

I began with Grover in 1970, and continued buying his albums all the way until his death. Let me began with "Inner City Blues"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QLncRYHH4qI

Enjoy the music.

Alex, if it works for you, it works for me; I'll still respond to your posts.

Enjoy the music.

Rok, just as sure as the sun sets in the west and rises in the east, I could have predicted your post. Do whatever floats your boat.

Enjoy the music.

Frogman, jukeboxes was the publics first exposure to high end audio; this lasted until they switched to SS; before, they had tubes and high quality cartridges.

Enjoy the music.

Frogman, go to preview first before you submit your post; they come up with multiple choices.

Frogman, it didn't take long to wear that first LP out and I had to buy another one, keep it going.

Enjoy the music.

Frogman, now that I'm in a 70's kind of groove, I realize how jazz evolved into a "mellower" kind of music. Pharoah Sanders, Alice Coltrane, and Lonnie Liston Smith expressed this groove quite eloquently, here's Alice.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eACC7W5xX9I

Although this night drive is in LA, it could just as easily been St. Louis; as a matter of fact, I had no trouble imagining I was driving in St. Louis at night;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWzC9QqeEDs

Here's Lonnie Liston on another one of his dream excursions;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9IvsqPUTZNo

Enjoy the music.

Here are two more Gato's I like

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UjV4LqHHUMU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4i4dLVaidFM

Enjoy the music.

Frogman, you're doing it again, check PREVIEW before you submit, that way you'll know you got it right.

When I heard "Rain Dance" from the album Sextant, I thought it was the most unusual piece of music I had ever heard, it blew me away; even the album cover was unique.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FtX2kQYlAOk

Weather Report "I Sing The Body Electric"; that took me to another dimension, or maybe another planet in a far away galaxy; I'm not sure where, but I liked the trip. At the time I was looking for something different, and I certainly found it here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RyejgAL7JB0&list=PLYQ_u-nkZNLmOyc8-2sqjliJaW77VGSJJ

Enjoy the music.

Alex, Rok shoots from the hip, but since he had hip surgery, his aim ain't too good. Herbie Mann is one of the all time greats, and I feel quite fortunate to have seen him live.

Enjoy the music.

Frogman, I checked those names and cuts on 'you tube'; of course I had Herbie's album, I was into fusion at the time. I'll bet Rok had it as well, "Fusion" was a good idea at the time. I found some bright yellow, bell bottomed, double knit slacks with three inch cuffs, in the back of my closet a long time ago; since the waist was way too small, they could not have been mine, but the wife said she had no gentleman friends over who left their slacks, so maybe they were mine; if so, they must have been "a good idea at the time".

Enjoy the music.

Now we can go into the eighties: Pat Metheney, George Adams, Stanley Jordan, Bobby McFerrin, David Sanborn, John Scofield, plus the Marsalis Brothers are some of the names that came into prominence during that decade.

I said Wynton Marsalis was the best trumpet player ever when I first heard him. That was when he was a sideman, and before he came out with his first album. I sold all his albums I acquired because they lacked "originality", the key ingredient for something new. While that certainly didn't detract from his trumpet playing skills, those albums indicated his individual music making skills were lacking.

Me and nobody else ever said Wynton couldn't play the trumpet, he just can't compose music; those are two entirely different skills, as long as the music isn't his, it's just fine.

You can give us examples of that decade, or share whatever you choose to share with us.

Enjoy the music.

No, we haven't even scratched the surface; that's because only the two of us care to. Rok couldn't care less, Alex doesn't know, Acman post's a sentence every now and then; just who are you going to debate? We can go as deep into the 70's as you like. We can disregard the 80's post, and you can lead us as deep as you like through the 70's, I'll follow.

Enjoy the music.