Rok2kid, I too share your technical ignorance about music form, etc. In fact mine ignorance is rather profound, at least so I'm told. :-) That said, consider that most folks, and I assume you as well, have grown accustomed to wearing 2 hats in 'audio', i.e. you have lots of knowledge about audio components, set ups, and the results of careful attention to the details. Obviously in order to really enjoy listening to music you must learn how to disregard your audio achievements. Some folks do get hung up on listening to soundstage, detail/resolution, and such but for the most part they will risk burning out on the audio hobby if they can't get past this and learn how to listen thru and focus on the music.
I think as much can be said about listening to music. You can have a lot of knowledge about music, appreciate the theory and practices of composition and performance, yet be able to listen beyond that and just enjoy. As Frogman indicated the best part of having some knowledge is that when you find music you really love if you have some knowledge you will know why you love it.
It has become clear from recent posts that A-Gon's music forum has some participants that speak to the subject, not so much about themselves. A breath of fresh air! Consider, Rok, that if you have no knowledge you can only express a subjective opinion which can limit discussions and make them one dimensional.
FWIW. |
Rok2id, FWIW not only is my knowledge of Jazz poor, my use of English and my editing skills are even worse.
My use of the word 'you' was inappropriate. I should have used the word 'one'. My post was not so much about you at all, although I can see why you might have thought so. My apologies.
I would agree that it can be fun, and even helpful, to participate in 'conversations' about things one feels enthused and/or knowledgeable. But, when all is said and done, I think it is hard to draw value from posts unless one knows the subject and the persons who are participating. Nothing new there I think.
With music, as with most things 'audio' lots of folks form their opinions based on little more than personal exposure (usually to recordings at home) and/or 'internet gossip' and post them in declarative sentences as if they were based on fact and beyond dispute. Not so common in music threads I think as audio, but it exists non the less. For example, I love to listen to jazz at home. I've got a large collection, but it is all based on the music by artists I like to listen to. I could tell you that I liked Charlie Haden's performances greatly, but if you asked me why, perhaps as compared to the performances by Ray Brown, probably the best explanation I could come up with would be that I find Charlie's music more laid back, Browns more aggressive and forward, Haden's music more contemporary and Brown's more from an earlier era. So, when all is said and done if I were to participate in a thread about Brown and Haden to my way of thinking, if I were actually to do that, I really would have nothing of value to contribute, unless of course for what ever reason you specifically asked me. So I usually do not contribute in threads about jazz. Mine is just another opinion, how boring is that.
FWIW, my main interest is in classical music. While still fairly ignorant, I know just enough to enjoy participating in those threads in which I do have considerable exposure, and some knowledge, so long as the thread is not just about personal favorites and the best of whatever.
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Frogman, I for one, and I suspect there are many others, appreciate your posts. Unlike some other's posts, they offer the opportunity to learn something other than just what an (un)informed participant's personal (subjective) opinions are, interesting though they may be. If nothing else, your posts help folks keep an open mind, or should anyway. :-) |
"Now WE MIGHT THINK.....". IMHO "WE" is most probably constituted of no more than Rok2id and his shadow.
Frogman and Learsfool, FWIW I have found your posts, wherein you have tried to inform Rok2id, quite interesting and informative. It's nice to see intelligent and considered posts from folks active in music as well as audio. Stick around. :-) |
For some reason, when checking in on this thread, I'm always (or most always anyway) reminded about the Brer Rabbit and the Tar Baby story. :-) |
In the event that someone doesn't remember (or never read) the Brer Rabbit story, substitute therefore the warning about the results of wrestling with pigs. :-)
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Frogman, FWIW, there is something condescending, I think, when some one feels that he needs to protect jazz history and it's fans from misinformation put forward by some folks, especially those who's motivation is as transparent as Rok and Orpheus. They are what they are, it is readily apparent to the most casual observer, and they are not going to change.
Its too bad that all of the great information that you and Learsfool can convey to the more pedestrian jazz lovers will be lost unless a new thread is created. The value of this thread is greatly diminished by its shear length and the rancor. Trying to find the gems is, forgive me, nothing less obnoxious that looking for pearls in pig shit. Let Orpheus and Rok alone to their conversations in this thread should they continue to wish to do so (and I don't know why, or for how long, they would). |
Rok, FWIW I stated several years ago my reasons for not actively participating in this thread. You can locate them and refresh yourself if need be. But the short version is this - I find it unrewarding to participate in a conversation with anyone who willingly ignores the difference between fact, fiction, and opinion, for any reason, but especially so when it is clear that their motivation is nothing more than that of ego reinforcement. |
Rok, I can't (or maybe just won't) try to answer your 'unanswered question', except to say that I thought that your posts as well of the posts of Orpheus were, far more often than not, more about yourselves and your perceptions/opinions, than the music itself.
Sharing an opinion with others can be a fine thing, but confusing your opinion, and/or valuation, of the music itself, or even a specific performance, with something absolute, is too god like for me to want to endure. Nothing new here. I said as much 3 years ago.
If I were a musicologist I would gladly converse with one. Not being one I would still enjoy talking with one and trying to gain some knowledge. If I were a musician I would love to discuss my musicianship with other musicians. I might have more difficulty with this conversation as I have no shared experience to begin with. This may be why I like/appreciate Frogman and Learsfool - they are both generous of spirit and their time in trying to inform others.
But I'm neither of the above, only a listener. I can share with others only my appreciation for that which I have heard, or perhaps for what I would wish to hear. And that is enough for me. :-)
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Rok, If you are interested in 'jazz' vocalists you might be interested in the music of Laverne Butler, Rene Marie, and Mary Stallings. All contemporary vocalists. All have recorded on the MaxJazz label. I'm not sure how well known they are (on this forum anyway) but they are certainly well worth knowing! Sorta like Etta Jones. And Etta James. They sure won't put you to sleep.
I like Karren Allyson well enough, but when I want more relaxed jazz vocals I seem to migrate to Shirley Horn. She excels IMHO. Plays a pretty good piano too.
FWIW. Just to show you what you are (not!) missing by my reluctance to contribute to this thread. |
Alex, First, nice thoughtful post.
My POV is a bit more simplistic perhaps, but I believe most folks are anchored to music they found appealing during their youth and unless they developed a serious interest in a particular idiom they, at least subconsciously, resist the progression this music takes . Some resist and reject this evolution and dismiss it. Some enjoy and encourage this progression, more food for their brain I think.
I came to jazz when I was an adult so I had no fixed opinion about the value of music from the introduction of recorded jazz from any particular period. Blessed, perhaps with this ignorance, I was free to explore/like/reject music from all of the various periods and styles of jazz.
What I found, and it was an experience I had in dealing with the evolution of classical music from the 'classical' period thru the 'modern' period was that each new period required some attention and, more importantly perhaps, just passive acclamation, to the form and the sounds.
I was in my Beethoven period and dating a woman musician employed by a symphony orchestra. She was helping me with my Beethoven experience and casually mentioned that she most enjoyed playing Shostakovitch's music. I listened once and was baffled by all the noise. I didn't listen again for perhaps 10 years. Now I've blown through his music (an a lot of other from his period) and have learned to accept and or reject his compositions based on nothing more or less than my appreciation.
I think what has saved me from anchoring myself to Beethoven's period was nothing more or less than a native curiosity. I feel fortunate in my approach to Jazz. I feel no more reluctance in listening to the music of , for example, Ron Carter, Brad Mehldau, Charlie Haden, Roy Hargrove or Joshua Redman than I would to the music of Henderson, Jones, Getz, Evans, Benny Carter, Peterson, (and all of the famous players from the 50's, 60's and 70's).
I think there is nothing wrong with 'personal feeling and experiences' controlling your personal enjoyment of the music but, like you, I fail to find it a credible basis for argument, or any valuation for that matter.
One of the things that I most enjoy about both Frogman and Learsfool is their continuing interest in the music itself without a chronological anchor. A trait I think most musicians share.
I apologize in advance for this wordy, self absorbed perhaps, explanation of my views.
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Frogman, Perhaps Rok was thinking about Shostakovitch when he said 20th century classical composers stole from jazz. Actually I think his attempts to compose 'jazz' might be more accurate, especially his jazz suites, which while pleasant enough don't really float my boat. I'm not aware of other quotes from 'jazz' in his music but I'd be surprised if they don't exist. Composers and performers of all styles of music have been quoting each other's music and style since a man in Africa started beating a log with a stick. :-) |
I'm sure there are plenty of recordings of African drum beating, but if you have have a penchant for vinyl recordings seek out "Professor Johnson's Amazing Sound Show" on Reference Recordings I believe. It has some 'amazing' displays of solo African Drumming'. Turn up the volume, bring down the house! Love it. This is really exciting, primitive, stuff , especially for us knuckle draggers. |
Rok, Re Beethoven's connection to my African log beater - think 'rhythm'. Ludwig really understood the use of rhythm. It dominates his music - its what really grabs your attention, especially in his 5th, 7th, and 9th, in particular, I think. That's what makes much of his music so humable.
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Rok, FWIW I can hum Stravinski. :-)
If you care to hear something less heard by his occasional listeners who only know him from his to Ballets, pick up 'Shadow Dances' by the Orpheus Chamber Orchestra Orchestra on DG. His Tango in cut 1 is (for me anyway) worth the price of the disc. Enjoy....
BTW, where/when do you think Jazz, as we know it, diverged from the music of Africa (which became music of the "European Classical Tradition").
When did the music of the Far East diverge from the music of Africa. Or did it split off the music that became the music of European countries. Is there an Asian Jazz?
Did the music of the countries of Europe split off music we now know as 'European Jazz' or did Jazz in Europe evolve from the Jazz which developed in the Americas'.
Almost a racial thing isn't it, we can speculate that Africans were black, that caucasians became white from lack of sun in the North where they migrated, but what I can never figure out is why Asians developed their unique eyes. It's a puzzlement (quasi quote from Fair Lady, I think). Pretty shallow thinking isn't it. |
Jeez, if I had known about the Grammy Award first I'd probably never have listened to it, let alone recommended it. :-)
But I'm glad I did. Are you a regular member of this group? I think I have most of their recordings which I highly value BTW.
Rok, just in case you want to pass on my recommendation because you don't want to hear Frogman blow his (own) horn, you can listen to Tango on a solo piano in a disc of 'Dances' by Kathryn Stott on Chandos.
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Hi O-10,
I'm talking about both. How about we just call it 'musical anthropology', FWIW this is a a' defined' phrase. I guess you didn't know of its existence.
Personally, I can't begin to understand how you can separate the two words when that is exactly what you have been talking about, i.e. the history/developement of jazz. Though I must admit that I have thought myopia attractive at stressful times in my life. KTSS. |
Frogman (an others?), I just played a 'Latin Jazz' recording that I thought you might enjoy if you haven't already heard it. On the down side it did win a Grammy and it is relatively recent. Charlie Haden's (an excellent bassist IMHO) recording on Verve "Land of the Sun". Gonzalo Rubalcaba plays the piano. Outstanding late night romantic jazz, I think. The devil made me do it! :-) |
Learsfool (and others), I was playing a disc the other night and I though of you - not your horn but I'm sort of indiscriminate (so I'm told). Andre Previn and Thomas Stevens play a classic american songbook on DRG. This may not be more than some beautiful dinner jazz, but for me anyway that's enough.
Makes me think more about the evolution of jazz and its 'apparent' demise to many after Miles Davis came along and did his thing. I didn't really gain interest in jazz until the late 80's. My interest then was an intellectual thing . I really didn't have a musical connection to the jazz of the 50's and 60's. When I investigated the recommendations from jazz enthusiasts most of the music was from the 50's and 60's and, to me anyway, much was inaccessible. A lot of disconnected notes. Like Berg and Schoenberg in modern classical music, aka just 'noise'. Getting into this jazz was hard work! Almost too hard.
I didn't start to appreciate jazz after until I heard the 'dinner jazz' (a softer jazz perhaps) of musicians such as Previn, Person, Ron Carter, Byrd, Pass, and Peplowski, just to name a few. For me this was a pre-coital kiss. The rest came more naturally after this adaptation.
I don't know if my experience has any universality but if it does could not the frequent whine of the demise of jazz actually have more to do with it than the actual, and continuing natural evolution of a music form?
This thinking thing is too hard - I'm glad that unlike you and Frogman I don't have to do it for a living. :-)
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Alex, this post is really all about orpheus 10, disguised as a thread about jazz. However, I think some of us follow this thread for the occasional discussion of jazz which involves music we have or would like or explore. It is fairly easy to overlook the chest thumping and pedantic contributors when they appear.
There is a lot of knowledge extant to be gained and it's free so why not just read and learn a bit. Just don't feed the animals when you walk by. :-)
As for the others, I believe that many just like to slow down to view the damage as they pass the scene of an accident. Lots to see I guess. |
For anyone who enjoys music from the swing era, but is no all that engaged by the sound of big bands prevalent in the 30's and 40's, you might enjoy music by Scott Hamilton and his Quartet (or Quintet). A few of the CD's that I enjoy are 'Race Point', 'Radio City', and more recently 'My Romance', but there are so many to pick from that are equally good.
In the same style, look up some of Dick Hyman's solo piano CD's. Four that come to mind that I really enjoy are Reference Recording's 'Dick Hyman plays Duke Ellington', 'Dick Hyman in Recital', "From the Age of Swing' and Concord Jazz' 'Music of 1937' Music of 1937'.
FWIW, CJ's Maybeck Hall series contains a lot of great jazz for those who like solo piano. I highly recommend its exploration.
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Thanks for the post. I will order this record immediately. FWIW she has been my favorite jazz singer for over 10 years now - I don’t know how I missed this CD. |
orpheus10, Not to put too fine a point of this 'good v bad' issue, but as I see it, good v bad is commonly applied in an absolute sense but too often it is used in place of 'I like or dislike'.
When you say 'like' or 'dislike' it is a personal statement whether you choose to amplify it or not. When you say 'good' or 'bad' it suggests that this categorization has more of a universal application to the music absent your personal enjoyment or lack thereof, and most folks would expect you to amplify on how you reached that conclusion.
FWIW.
Frogman, I just listened to Rene Marie's 'Sound of Red'. It is easily the best recording that I have of her music (and that is most of them) both by virtue of her singing and the recording. Your comments about her diversity of styles is right on point. Interestingly the last cut, 'Blessings', strongly reminds me of some of Eva Cassidy's songs. My appreciation for Eva's music and voice is exceeded only by the sadness it brings to me to know there will be nothing new.
Acman, Thanks for the recommendation for Sari Kessler's 'Do Right'. I listened to it just after Marie's recording. Very different voices and styles, but very enjoyable non-the-less. I little more laid back, I think.
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Orpheus, I believe my post was intelligible, if not as artful as it might have been had I really cared. If you cannot understand it without amplification I would suggest you re-read my post of 2/28/16.
BTW, FWIW, you have not accurately reported how many posts I have been involved in which music was a topic and in which I made recommendations. I suspect this really makes no difference to you. You were only trying to make a point.
As I said earlier, IMHO this thread is, and always has been more about you than about jazz (or music). Too bad because I suspect you have much of value you could contribute if I were willing to wade through extraneous which unfortunately only serves to obscure what you do have to share.
FYI, I do find the participation of others both informative and of value. I thank them for that.
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Frogman, When I listened to this recording I thought it might just be up your alley.
"Havana Moon" by the TransAtlanticEnsemble. A fusion of Latin Jazz and Classical music. In a couple of cuts I’m reminded of Stravinsky’s Shadow Dances. It is predominantly a piano and clarinet duo. It is on a Steinway & Sons CD.
O-10, somehow I don’t think you would find this music particularly interesting. I could be wrong, just a guess. |
Frogman, Thanks for the recommendations.
I really enjoy the Rivera & Brazil Guitar Duo album and intend to purchase it as a beginning view of Rivera's music. FWIW, as I age I find myself far more interested in small ensembles and solo instruments, in both classical and jazz (especially in music for the solo piano and have enjoyed the Concord Jazz 'Live at Maybeck Hall' series. Lots of excellent jazz pianists you never hear much about.) |
Frogman, for your considertion in case you haven't already heard this, a duo by Dave McKenna and Buddy DeFranco doing some 'swing', titled "You Must Believe in Swing" on the Concord Jazz label. Bill Evans is probably turning over in his grave at the title. :-) |
pryso, You want some good ’spiritual’, try Charlie Haden/Hank Jones’s album "Steal Away" and/or "Come Sunday" (Verve and Universal Music Group, respectively). Works for me. Sorry, no horns. |
acman3, thanks for the recommendation. I think ’Going Home’ is a cut on the ’Come Sunday’ CD I referred to. FWIW we played this at a remembrance service for a dear friend. |
FWIW I've always enjoyed a recording of Hoagy Carmichael music by the Rick Hollander Quartet 'Once Upon a Time' on Concord Jazz. |
Late night solo piano music by Lara Downes on Steinway & Sons label. ’A Billie Holiday Songbook’. Very laid back and quite enjoyable. Sort of like Hyman who’s music I find more energized (not so much ’late at night’ music). FWIW. |
