How important is it to replace your generic receptacles with audio grade receptacles . I already replaced my stock power cords to high end Shunyatas. Would it still be necessary to still change my generic receptacles to audio grade?
I’m gonna throw my recent experience into the mix. my system VPI prime, Hana SL, Lehmann Black Cube SE2 Bluesound node 2, Schiit Bifrost multibit. Primaluna Dialogue Premium int. Focal 1008be2 Audio sensibility wiring.
As I moved from Yaqin 100b to the primaluna , no contest. adding the Focal speakers took me closer to a wonderful sound that I was quite happy with in my 11X16X10 room.
I had bought some Hubell 5362 outlets a while ago and never installed them.
I had had an electrician run a 20 amp line to my stereo before I made my equipment upgrades, however they installed their outlets, and didn’t really attach the box to the studs.
Well I finally had some time to replace the outlets and attach the box to the studs.
To say that there was an improvement would be disingenuous.
I had more bass, more micro detail, deeper soundstage, and wider.
Now I need to get some bass traps.
But I am a believer.
The crappy outlets they installed were less that half the weight of the hubbells.
lowrider57 Thanks so much, Elizabeth, terrific explanation. Now it makes sense why you have the quartz crystals in different areas, and why so many tweaks are for sale to treat these same areas. I was aware of possible RFI being found in the obvious areas such as unshielded AC cable and transformers. The Crystals and similar tweaks to be used system-wide seemed unnecessary to me.
>>>Since I am the creator of the first comprehensive crystal based solution for audio applications - Brilliant Pebbles - bear 🐻 with me, gentle readers while I address is comment briefly. Over a period of time starting about 15 years ago I discovered a great many location where crystals (my products are not individual crystals but groups of crystals of various types and sizes) improve the sound. I also discovered locations where their use is either ineffective or hurts the sound. Furthermore, as I just mentioned most locations where crystals improve the sound they operate as mechanical and acoustic resonators. If the entire 3D Space of the room is mapped out for sound pressure level, those locations such as room corners where sound pressure levels can be 4-8 dB or more higher than the average SPL in the room. And beacause crystals are resonators caution should be used when applying them to electronics and isolation stands, for example.
Crystals act as vibration absorbers due to the spring like behavior of atoms in the symmetrical atomic structure of the crystals and the reason multiple crystals are more effective than any single crystal is because the operational bandwidth is wider. Power to the pebble!
It’s a common misconception that crystals generally operate by absorbing RFI/EMI. In fact, crystals operate in most audio applications by absorbing vibration. For example, in room corners, in proximity to ekectron tubes, on output transformers, on top of tube traps, and on cable connectors, wall outlets and windows. The only good vibration is a bad vibration. Having said all that I wouldn’t be very surprised if someone somewhere could find a place where crystals improved the sound by absorbing RFI/EMI.
Thanks so much, Elizabeth, terrific explanation. Now it makes sense why you have the quartz crystals in different areas, and why so many tweaks are for sale to treat these same areas. I was aware of possible RFI being found in the obvious areas such as unshielded AC cable and transformers. The Crystals and similar tweaks to be used system-wide seemed unnecessary to me. The Greenlee tool could be useful. Thanks again.
The 'pressure' of 120v AC is 'pushing/radiating' electrons off the surface anywhere the voltage is available. in use or just sitting!.(same thing IN equipment, where the AC line comes in, switch, etc, around the transformer... endless) I own a small tool to measure radiated fields. (Greenlee GT-16 adjustable voltage detector $25 or so at Amazon) It registers off equipment displays, even individual diode lighting, any powered outlet spews out this stuff. So do ALL unshielded power cords. It is also carried along metal. So say a pole lamp with a zip cord AC wire inside, but not touching, up to top? the whole pole is charged and radiating the field. Only insulating/shielding the wire will stop the field. The quartz crystals do also stop it, but only if they are more tightly packed. if they are only jumbled.loose. they do not stop it, it manages to get through. So no matter what, your duplex outlets ARE radiating a field. The outlet cover may be designed to stop it from inside the outlet box. The HOLEs in the outlet cover are spewing the stuff anyway... but the moment you add a plug, the plug body is ALSO radiating the field, unless it is fully shielded! any plastic plug body is letting the field radiate off it. Metal too, unless the metal is grounded. This stuff is almost unavoidable. and takes a LOT of effort to control fully. No one does this and they all survive. Plus you have endless RFI in the air anyway just at higher frequencies. TV over the air, radio, police bands, cell phone, Who knows what else..I have over 30 WiFi signals floating through my apartment. None of which belong to me!It is kind of a hidden problem, since you do not feel it. But the stuff is there, all the time all around. (no big deal) so trying to control it?? tough job. Fancy duplex outlet covers are like a small band aid on a big wound. (so are the quartz crystals.. but they are way cheaper than the fancy duplex covers, and far more versatile) I suggest buying a Greenlee GT-16 and find out for yourself. (the Greenlee is a little better than the other similarly priced tools like it, though when it's battery gets half worn, it starts to go crazy, replace the battery!)Anyway, hope that helps.
I get that the Blu Tack is only on the backside, that's where I want to use damping material. So, I intend to stop vibration at the receptacles, but do you believe that this area also needs treatment for RFI?
I'm not going buy carbon fiber treated covers, but I'm still looking for an explanation of how RF can be generated or exist at the AC receptacle.
The Blu Tack is only on the backside, NOT front of cover.Previously I have experimented with small quartz crystals. I bought several pounds of small tumbled quartz (average 2mm to 4mm size) all sorts. And applied my own idea of a coating, Automotive dielectric grease. (never ever get in eyes, or on hands soon in eyes. bad bad) (what is wanted is to coat the crystal bits with a non conductive coating. Some have cooked the crystals in whatever..The idea is the individual crystal bits get radiated energy and then vibrate. dissipating the energy, instead of allowing it to continue to radiate, they ideally need to be in close contact, but not inter-conductive.) Placed in small baggies. stuck them all over the place. Anyway got kind of tired of that. But when I have been doing the Furutech outlets, I used some of the baggies. They in a way, are like the NCF material on some Furutech duplex. So yes there are small baggies of treated quartz around some of the Furtech duplex in the boxes and in the Furman power conditioner. (I previously had them in the Furman, six years? no problem) I also have some baggies taped to AC plugs, and ALL the Furutech plugs have as much of the treated quartz crystals inside as I could pack in.(and still close up the plugs)
Hi @elizabeth. I saw your earlier post about Blu-Tack, I didn't realise that you spread the product over the entire duplex cover. What's your take on RFI leakage thru the AC receptacle; does this need to be treated? Or is vibration control the only aspect that needs to be addressed? A lot of folks are spending big money on carbon fiber receptacle covers. Thanks.
I have stuff like 'Blu-Tack" spread under the surface of some of my duplex covers. IT is plastic and can be spread as thin as one has the patience to do it. Some have been used with that stuff for over six years..and it remains the same flexible material. Definitely dampens the Duplex cover for a few bucks. I use Brass outlet covers all around. Blu Tack is a brand name, but all building supply/hardware stores have it or a similar product to hold up pictures.(I have never used it for that, but I also use it around powercord plugs. The stuff is reusable a thousand times.. Also it is sticky, but if any sticks? Just use the clump tap the spots they come off onto the clump.
Since the subject of vibration through receptacle covers was mentioned, I'd like some advice. The covers on my duplexes are not perfectly flush to the drywall so I'd like to secure them. I have two 20A dedicated lines coming from a subpanel, then wired to Hubbell duplexes. I'm using large non-magnetic stainless steel covers which are very rugged.
I want to insulate the inside of the covers to insure a more secure fit. Should I use rubber or Sorbethane, or would there be any benefit in using carbon fiber fabric or tape? All this talk about buying Oyaide carbon fiber covers has me wondering.
Something new to worry about? (man down!)? Anyway I can say since I have never worried about the wires in the wall before, nor know of any realistic plan to ’fix them. I’ll take a total pass on the issue. (Reminds me of various ’net articles of what you ’should’ or ’should not’ be eating so you do not die, or so you live near forever. Just a lot of stuff for the nervous types to ponder. I would bet someone posted about the in the wall vibration just to see if somebody ’bites’. In other places, seems that small treated crystal chips do ameliorate the problem of both physical and electrically caused vibration. The NCF formula of Furutech NCF labelled duplex are for just that purpose. And folks whom previously owned Furutech GTX-D Rhodium duplex without the NCF, but then bought the NCF duplex, DO report the NCF helps lower noise. Maybe in new construction an audiophile could work on it. Aside from injecting whatever into the walls around the conduit? Not gonna happen in most cases. A problem never before worried about? I am SURE someone will now worry about it. LOLAlso I would think the insulation around the three wire type in wall AC would help. And the usual cord and rubber/ plastic on external AC cords helps also. (No help for Zip cord though.)
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I’m a contributing member and I don’t hurl insults at other members."
Very noble stance sw, it might have been your original intent, however as this thread progresses, recent posts have you straying from your said stance.
Loserbreath must live in a dilapidated rooming house to be so concerned about the structure not being able to dampen reflected sound waves. And being so knowledgeable about the NEC, has ironically created a fire hazard by stuffing flammable foreign materials into receptacle device boxes. But then, box fill is only a concern for “old men that write books of doctrine”, and not a worry for some ignorant people. That sounds like a big liability when it catches fire and burns down the rooming house or group home or whatever it is. Beware of these risks folks, and keep your homes safe by not embarking on fool’s errands.
inna How do you people deal with vibrating wires in the wall ? You think it’s nothing ? There is an external vibration and vibration created by the current.
>>>>>That’s quite so. That is why there are such things as duplex outlet covers that act as resonators and large (constrained layer) Marigo Dots for walls and even crystals for walls. Herbies Tube Dampers on power cord plug, anyone? Not only is seismic vibration an issue but when music is playing the walls react accordingly and vibrate like drum heads. The only good vibration is a dead vibration. ☠️
A lot of this information that is given on this thread is wrong and tread lightly when listening to some of this. Most new construction will use 14g wire for 15 amp lines and most use 12g wire for 20 amp, never smaller but you can use 10g. Never assume anything. No builder is going to pay a premium of using 12g wire for 15amp circuits. I have purchased and built 5 new homes in the last 18 years and every builder in every state has done this. We are building a new custom house now and this builder does the same as the other 5. If unsure, open your panel and verify the wire used. Another thing you should do is have either an electrician or your local utility come out and place a device over your circuit to show exactly how many amps you are drawing on the line. There are guidelines on how many max amps you want to draw. For example, on a 15 amp line, you don’t want to go over 10 amps, this is just an example, not sure 10 is accurate, it might be less or more, but never close to 15. in my latest custom house in my dedicated audio room, I have 6 dedicated 20amp circuits. Cheap to do when building. Large monoblocks, used to use 2 large powered subwoofers, 2 large motor hanss t-60 tt, pre, dac, and other equipment, and the circuits can go fast. Without the subs, I use 4 circuits. Overkill, maybe
They just fill the wall with magic pixie dust whilst making snide comments in public to each other about the new family that moved in down the street, and the vibrations of the wires mysteriously disappear.
How do you people deal with vibrating wires in the wall ? You think it's nothing ? There is an external vibration and vibration created by the current. Just don't respond to pseudo-scientists and they'll give up. Everything makes a difference, only questions are to what degree, what exactly and if you can hear it. I once polished the blades with Flitz, didn't hear a difference. Clean all connectors with Kontak once a year - hear a difference. I must get that Furutech, gold I think. But then I will want to upgrade the power cord from the wall. Damn. The cord is quite good, by the way.
glennewdick, There are US duplex that accept both a 20 amp and a 15 amp plug blades, and they are very common. Plenty of discussions center on 'are 20 amp duplex legal on 15 amp lines'.. In the USA, by code, which is the legally binding rules for electricians (but not so much for audio hobbyists it seems..), just to clarify And cleaning the blades also helps if they are just bare copper or silver. I find using a product I have around is excellent at taking off tarnish. Meguiars Scratch X is for automotive finishes, but it is great for polishing CDs, and the copper or silver or brass plug blades. It clears off the tarnish, and slightly polishes the metal.(I do think most audiophiles replacing IC and other wires move there plugs and connectors more than once every few yeas....LOL So that unplugging my not be as big a deal as one who never moves gear for years might think. The real test to HEAR if there is a difference you like... is to plug the old one back in, later. Is is as good? worse? BETTER? Generally if the old one is as good/better to your ears, return the new one for a refund. I would never keep something unless it really sounds better. And have returned multi thousand dollar items since they did NOT sound better.
i'm not sure what the regs are in the USA but in Canada the 15 and 20 amp outlets are different and you can not plug a 20 amp plug into a 15 amp receptacle as the prongs are different. 15 amp both prongs are vertical with the round ground prong bottom center. 20 amp have one prong vertical and the other horizontal and the ground bottom center. you can also get locking receptacles and plugs that rotate to lock in place they are different again but maybe an interesting upgrade as they don't come loose unless you rotate them.
to be honest just pulling your plugs and re-plugging them from time to time makes a difference. It cleans the contact area. I'm sure a lot of what people think they hear as a difference is in actual fact just a reseat of the plug making better contact when they pull them out to re install new upgraded plugs sockets etc.
To folks just reading the last page of this thread. be aware all the ’deleted’ posts belong EXCLUSIVELY to sleepy dude. So Audiogon deletes posts for offensive language, attacking another member (But it has to be pretty harsh, since look at the others, So be aware Sleep’s ’claims’ of being an innocent puppy are not true,
sleepy says"it is very unfortunate that some members of this forum insist on being disrespectful and unreasonable when presented with facts" What facts have you presented? Have you ever tried an audiophile outlet? If not, I'm really not seeing anything remotely scientific about your facts to disprove they can improve ones system. Perhaps you should get together with your peer review board
(dyna & logluvr) & discuss what you hear after performing this experiment. Until then, you're really just going off of a theory, or worse (gasp)... an opinion.
You have been very polite, sleepwalker. And, in reply, you have today been called washed out, a clown, sad, pathetic and disgusting. A reply that includes personal attacks and sophomoric name calling immediately loses all credibility. Not sure why anyone on this forum needs to resort to that.
And, I agree with you. Readers of this forum have a right to be freely exposed to both sides of an issue without having to tolerate useless, demeaning banter.
It is very unfortunate that some members of this forum insist on being disrespectful and unreasonable when presented with facts. It is to everyone’s disadvantage when a few people spoil what is otherwise a good opportunity to learn and support each other. If common sense and decency does not characterize the administration of this forum, I suspect that I’ll be removed. If that happens, I will not be disappointed in myself, as I have been welcoming to those who have been polite and courteous. I will however miss the lost opportunity to openly discuss topics here about one of my favourite hobbies.
I love that tossed out notion of brainwashing. Seems the dude sleepwalking is the washed out brain here. I guess my excesses in the duplex department have caused some sort of Cosmic Upheaval in the wire is wire crowd. Se they sent the clown in. I also like how he thinks he is ’educating’ somebody, like they think their brainwashing can counteract the ’other’ brainwashing... And they think it has nothing to do with choice, intelligence of finding for oneself what works well in one’s own system. Sad, pathetic and disgusting. On Geoff’s comment, yeah outlet covers?? I use BlueTack stuff under brass outlet covers to dampen the vibes And put small polished quartz chips covered with Automotive dielectric grease, in small baggies in and around the Duplex housings (I also fill the Furutech plug bodies with the chips, no baggie)((Automotive dielectric grease is very very bad for eyes, anyone thinking of using it needs to be super careful NOT to get any of the grease on fingers.. mainly so not get in eyes. It really hurts the eyes and is bad. So heads up and wear disposable gloves if handling anything with dielectric grease in/on/around it))
This thread reads like a comedy gone bad. Anyone with an inkling of how this stuff works would spend a half an hour rolling around laughing on the floor.
The problem is optimization beyond the point of excess, where some consumers are brainwashed into spending hundreds of dollars on power cables with unsubtantiable qualities. If you don’t see anything wrong with that, fine. But I do, and I will speak up.
Dill asked: “Do you think it is your mission to denounce cable upgrades, outlets and the like to save us from ourselves? You do know it is a tired argument at best.”
Well since you are asking, it is my mission to educate people so they can be more informed consumers. No apology if that makes you feel inadequate. And please, if you are going to be critical, be accurate. I have promoted optimization, but not to excess. Somewhere in discussing this topic, fact must be separated from fiction. For instance, there was somebody going on about his 13AWG Romex - and anybody that’s even remotely aware of household wiring will tell you that there is no such thing as 13AWG Romex - people who make things up sometimes fool others who are less informed. So if that happens, I will gladly be the voice of reason to set things straight. You can choose to be part of the problem or part of the solution. Why you insist on not being part of the solution mystifies me.
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I just think that too often people are being taken advantage of."
Do you think it is your mission to denounce cable upgrades, outlets and the like to save us from ourselves? You do know it is a tired argument at best.
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