I’d like to hear from the people that have had both. Why tube? Why SS? What are the ups and downs of both? How does owning one or both differ? I’ve always owned SS, but also lusted after tubes.... jtweed
30+ yrs ago I had a major love affair with tubes in my big living room system: 2 X RM9 tube amps; each w/a pentode/triode switch at base of each of the 8 tubes (EL34 or KT-88). Had a big SS amp on the subs, tubes on everything else...+ a VTL "Ultimate" preamp (tubes).
What is it about tubes? Easy to hear, not so easy to describe. It's a quality of dimensionality, 3D sound from each note. You hear the body of the violin, the rosin on the bow, not just the sharp starting transient of the note. The notes are in space, and there's space around the notes.
Yes, tubes cost. And yes, they tend to poop out a bit on the very bottom and top. Top isn't a problem, since so much else in the stereo chain is over-hyped in the treble to begin with. Bottom can be a problem--that's why I segregate deep bass w/subs driven by SS.
All these years later, just bought my 1st desktop/headphone audio tube unit, a Woo WA3 OTL headphone amp w/preamp outs. It's burning in. Even listening on the "wrong" headphones (ones that aren't high impedance), I can already hear those familiar 3D notes.
I bi-amp, with a tube amp powering my planar mids/ribbon tweeters, and a SS amp powering the cone driver woofers. Best of both worlds, I feel.
But I agree with the people above, like Atmasphere - low order harmonic distortion is the way to go.
For instance, 2nd order harmonics are an octave above. Very rarely in tonal music is adding an octave going to destroy the vibe or harmonic tension/relaxation (dissonance/consonance). I mean, when I write orchestral music, I often ADD instruments in octaves above, to add the warmth and dimension to the sonority!
7th order harmonics, on the other hand, are a diminished 7th (plus 2 octaves) above the fundamental. The odds of this frequency aligning with the musical content you are listening to, is very small. You are going to perceive this as hash or congestion or listening fatigue.
Hope this ramble helps. It may be totally wrong. Jim, I'm a violist, not an acoustician!
I've had a tube preamp from 1990 on along with a SS amp. I've been very satisfied with the sound, BUT...I now have a TRL DUDE preamp with several upgrades to it and Nuforce Ref 9 V3 SE mono amps with the TDSS Level 3 upgrades including the power supplies. The sound is to die for in all ways with VMPS RM40 BCSE MLS speakers that are very detailed. The Ref 9's sounded very good prior to the upgrades, but are now way beyond their stock form in sound. Many VMPS users like tube amps on top and SS amps on the bottom with an active crossover. Just being honest. This last combo is quite a bit more expensive, however. I've heard my amps with a couple different systems and they are quite spectacular in each.
atmasphere - yes! That was the show & yes, I felt that the fi 2a3 monos did sound best; however, every amp sounded pretty amazing to me.
Quite a bit of stereo celebrities in that room that day. Actually, at the time, I was just getting back into audio as I took a couple years off when I became a father 4 years earlier. On that day, I purchased a Creek 5050 int amp from Listener magazine's Rob Doorack that he brought with him that day.
I was so amazed and impressed with what I was hearing that day, hence my name a'gon name Lou_setriodes!
Like dorkwad, I have the solid state NuForce Ref 9 V3 monoblocks with new power supplies modified by TDSS, but combined with a vintage Conrad-Johnson PV 11 tube preamp. I agree, the Ref 9’s are pretty amazing especially when coupled with the sweetness of the tubes in the CJ.
With the caveat that I have only owned low power SETs, tubes sound better than SS - in general. However, there are clearly very good SS amps (Bakoon, First Watt, for example) and not-so-good tube amps. As noted may times, speaker matching is more critical with low-power tube amps. Also I have had technical issues with both tube and SS amps.
I've been a pro musician for over 40 years. Played many tube & solid state amps and own both types of stereos. I've learned that everyone hears things a little different. One person thinks their gears sounds the best the other person says, hmmm I think it's too shrill on the top end. When I record in the studio I'm always amazed at how different my songs sound on different speakers or amps, etc. Every component makes a difference. If you find the right combination for your ears you've done something that is very satisfying. Often it's a journey not a destination! I love my all tube (preamp & power amp) but I also love my tube preamp & solid state amp. Both systems offer beautiful, pleasing audio. Experiment, go to audio stores and audition, purchase gear that can be returned within 30 days, after you've tried it. It's the same with guitar gear. You can just go on other's recommendations. You have to experience it to decide which you prefer. Happy hunting!
atmasphere & kosst_amojan Both make compelling and sensible contributions on this subject.
Excellent choices for solid state do exist. I know for certain that you would have to pry my Sutherland N1 preamp from my lifeless hands. Same goes for my EKSC Eagle 11' mono blocks. Vanishingly low distortion including all harmonics. Neither the preamp or mono blocks have any real personality or flavor. Just unrestrained performance. It just boils down to system matching in some cases and of course personality for which we all have abundant choices.
My first phono preamplifier was a solid state Pro-Ject Phono Box RS MM/MC. I really liked the sound it putout and after reading interviews about the companion Pro-Ject battery powered Power Box RS power supply I purchased it and the Pro-Ject battery powered Power Box RS power supply made the sound of my albums even more dead quiet with an even larger soundstage than using the Pro-Ject Phono Box RS MM/MC alone by itself. The list price for the Pro-Ject Phono Box RS MM/MC was $999 and the list price for the Pro-Ject battery powered Power Box RS power supply was $749 for a total of $1748 with free shipping. While doing the research on phono preamplifiers I also was intrigued by the Parks Audio Budgie Tube Phono preamplifier. So after about 6 months of enjoying the Pro-Ject Phono Box RS MM/MC and the companion Pro-Ject battery powered Power Box RS power supply I got the 'upgrade' bug/itch and purchased the Parks Audio Budgie Tube Phono preamplifier with the stock pair of EH 6922 vacuum tubes for a total of $399 with free shipping. Based on Shannon Park's, the owner and maker of the Parks Audio Budgie Tube Phono preamplifier Exacta loading system that provides 16 settings, I set the Exacta settings to 67.3K which is the MM setting to use for my Shure V15VxMR cartridge with the JICO (Shure) VN5xMR stylus. I was amazed at the transparency, depth, wide soundstage, and dynamic range. The Parks Audio Budgie Tube Phono preamplifier is a single ended Class A tube circuit. Also while researching phono preamplifiers I found out about 'tube rolling'. However I thought that tube rolling is a expensive proposition even though the tubes you roll maybe not that expensive, after rolling 5 to 6 or 7 pairs of tubes, the money spent would add up pretty quickly. So I decide to go for the gusto and buy up. I bought a pair of NOS 6DJ8/ECC88 Telefunken West Germany with diamond mark matched pair for $195 plus Tektronix 576 curve tracer matching for $20, shipping $10 and $4 for insurance for a total of $229 from Brent Jessee Recording and Supply, Inc. Keep in mind it is very important that you buy vacuum tubes from reputable dealers. That being said Brent Jessee Recording and Supply, Inc. has a 30 day return policy with a 20% restocking fee. After less than 30 days I decide to return them. After seeing Kevin Deal's of Upscale Audio NOS Telefunken E88CC/6922 youtube video I bought a Platinum Grade, Cryoed, matched pair of NOS Telefunken E88CC/6922's for $454. For a total of $853 I bought a Parks Audio Budgie Tube Phono preamplifier and pair of NOS Telefunken E88CC/6922's vacuum tubes with the transparency, depth, wide soundstage, and dynamic range as described above with an added 3 Dimensional sound quality I had never heard before that far surpassed the solid state Pro-Ject Phono Box RS MM/MC and Pro-Ject battery powered Power Box RS power supply in sound and price.
Why does it have to be one or the other? Why not both? My house, although small, has more than one room. Tubes in one, solid state in the other. Switch on whichever makes you happy on any given day. The best of both worlds!
Like others here I've owned some powerful, high quality SS amps. The good ones always sounded terrific... until I compared them back to back with my conrad-johnson tube amps. Owning both at the same time allowed switching out amplifiers as quickly as changing speaker leads. Listening back to the same material, the music was always better with tube amplification. Always more three dimensional and listenable. Excitingly real. Maybe it's c-j's philosophy of simple circuits with super high quality parts but it has worked for me over the years without exception. My music preference is acoustic jazz and classical, not sure this effect works as much with rock music. If you like music made by acoustic instruments, try a good tube system. It's heavenly.
I drive some very inefficient electrostats that have impedance curves that drop to 1 ohm with big class A power amps.
You might be surprised to find that tube amps can manage a load like that. IME many people think ESLs are inefficient and difficult to drive but I find that isn't completely true- they are often more efficient than thought, and their load can be problematic for certain amps, depending on the ESL.
For example Sound Labs are hard to drive for solid state, as you need about 800 watts to keep up with a 200 watt tube amp on the same speaker. This is because the speaker is 30 ohms in the bass, which knocks the solid state amp down to about 200 watts, while a tube amp is unaffected. At the extreme top end a Sound Lab is 1.5 ohms and our amps (which don't do particularly well with low impedances as they are OTLs) don't have any problems with them.
1 ohm (if correct) is not crazy bad for a tube amp because it occurs at 20KHz where there is little energy. So you might want to try a tube amp on the speaker and see. OTOH, Martin Logan ESLs are typically about 0.5 ohms at 20KHz and no tube amp does them well (they sound rolled off in the highs) without a set of ZEROs (www.zeroimpedance.com) to boost the impedance.
first, i encourage you to buy a reasonably priced tube amp to compare to your SS amp. that is the best way to hear the obvious differences b/w the two.
the tubes give you the ability to tune your sound more specific to the desires of your ear and to "match" our speakers, both sonically and electrically.
This is a huge topic with thousands of forum pages written. dont get me wrong, I'm glad this thread started, just trying to offer you more outlets to do some quick reading, learn the basics, and get out fo the starting gate.
GO TO AN AUDIO SHOW!! you will see literally hundreds of SS and amp units.
also, many of us, use "hybrid" amp that have tubes in the PreAmp and SS in the Amp section. this gives most of us the best of both worlds. but again, whether a SS amp or Tube, it takes learning and practiced to get a good match b/w amp and speakers. many of us spend years playing around with different units and combos to get different sounds. Its my hobby, I love it!
I've been eyeballing this thread for a few days now. Naturally, I've got an opinion or two.
From what I can tell, most of virtues people are crediting to tubes isn't tubes at all, but rather the product of transformers and simple topologies. For instance, the behavior Atmasphere is attributing to tubes driving tough loads a few posts up has nothing to do with tubes, but how they're coupled to the load. McIntosh transformer couples their solid state amps to achieve the exact same goal.
Another example would be power JFET output stages. Or VFET, or SIT, or whatever you want to call them. They have the classic triode-like transconductance curves, and if implemented in a simple topology like a SET with proper line loading and all that fun jazz, they sound indistinguishable from triodes.
As far as I can tell, the magic in tubes has little to do with the actual tubes, but rather how they interact with the circuit. Rarely do you see that attention paid in solid state amps, especially those with 4, 5, or 6 gain stages. I think the reason you see solid state amps pop up from time to time that transcend this debate is because somebody has made real effort in pair parts with circuits to take best advantage of the gain devices.
Uh, when most people talk about tubes in the context of tubes vs solid state electronics I am pretty sure they’re referring to the whole electronics package. It’s an expression. You know, like I like tubes. Or I like how tubes sound. In that vein. 💉 When someone says I like transistors or I like how transistors sound chances are great he is not referring to actual transistors per se.
Just like tubes, different transistors sound different. Tube equipment manufacturers are very quick to tell you what tubes are used in the products. However, transistor equipment manufactures typically don't tell you what is being used, the circuitry or topology.
So, as usual it comes down to what you like when you are listening.
I have hear some amazing tube amps and pre-amps. Likewise, I have also hear some amazing solid state amps and pre-amps. Don't let anyone fool you. both are great. I would take either.
It comes down to your style and listening preference.
But, as I have mentioned many times, make sure you are comparing apples to apples. First, establish a sound you really like. Second, establish a price range/point that offers products within that price range/point. Third, then go find tube and solid state equipment that you can listen to, hopefully in your home system or if not, in the store on the same equipment. Those really are the only two ways you can really tell the difference.
Also, don't let people when demonstrating equipment change other equipment at the same time. Remember, apples to apples.
Listen to a tube amp on some equipment, then change out that amp for a solid state amp (same requirements and price point), changing absolutely nothing else and listen again.
some dealers like car dealers have certain models that absolutely are trying hard to sell and will try to set them up so that they seem better than others. The only way to tell is apples to apples comparisons.
It is difficult, but there are tube fans out there that refuse to hear anything else, not matter how great or innovative the other product is. Same can be said for solid state fans.
I'm a fan of excellent engineering and great sound regardless of whether it is solid state or tube. Great sound is great sound. Every designer has compromises in the designs and sound of their equipment. Unless the product is a cost no object design.
A good dealer will help you with this if they carry great solid state and tube equipment. Audio shows are good also, but you can't really compare there. but fun non-the-less.
@wspohn I'm kinda the same way. I've got s/s in the man-cave and toobs in the big room. There is a huge variation in the sound of, say, a Bedini s/s amp or an s/s Mac. Ditto with tube amps. My speaks (Tylers) are 90 dB and I listen to damn near anything.
jtweet, I did not mention that I am pairing my Parks Audio Budgie Tube Phono preamplifier with my solid state Panasonic SA-HE200 receiver or any other receiver for that matter downstream works well too.
koss_amojan, whatever the magic is with tubes, my Parks Audio Budgie Tube Phono preamplifier at $399 with the pair of NOS Telefunken E88CC/6922’s at $454 beats the heck out of spending a couple of thousand dollars on interconnects and another couple of thousand dollars on a turntable for better quality sound. Not to mention the
$1748 Pro-Ject Phono Box RS MM/MC and the companion
Pro-Ject battery powered Power Box RS power supply that I fortunately sold for cost.
I took a $200 Pioneer PL-600 direct drive turntable (the silver one) and upgraded the headshell with Ortofon LW-800S headshell wires and the above mentioned Shure V15VxMR cartridge with the JICO (Shure) VN5xMR stylus, rewired the tonearm with KAB SuperFlex Tonearm wire and hardwired the phono interconnects with the very inexpensive but value added Blue Jeans Cable LC-1’s with the preamp output interconnects being Blue Jeans Cable LC-1’s also.
I have 2 used Power Sound Audio V1081 subwoofers for left and right bass with again the Blue Jeans Cable LC-1’s subwoofer interconnects.
My front left, right and center speakers are Miller & Kreisel Professional MPS-2510’s with again, Blue Jeans Cable 12 gauge 5000UE speaker wire.
And all these modestly priced components perform flawlessly with each other. And without the Parks Audio Budgie Tube Phono preamplifier with the pair of NOS Telefunken E88CC/6922’s I don’t think my modestly priced system would sound as good.
And the receiver upgrade is the next upgrade for me. It’s just that every time I see an Anthem 1120 receiver on ’Gon I don’t have all the money to pull the trigger, but I’m working on it.
This is the first time I have posted here after years of lurking. Thanks to all you good folks who have posted here to help me make better decisions about that VERY EXPENSIVE hobby of trying to be an audiophile! It is much appreciated!
tyray....there are lots of smart and savvy people here so I find there's someone for every occasion .....and now you're already one of them........a phono pre may be in my future(skipping the long version of this story ) and your mention of Parks Audio Budgie was news to me so did some googling and gets some great reviews and added bonus....I have Eastern Electric cdp which uses two 6922s of which I have a small back stash so ...that works. and I too like many need to find good "budget " items, so also good. Hope you continue to post. Most people here are eager to help.
I started with SS, settled on Kenwoods. I love the fact that they had all three tone controls, I believe it's your system and you bought the music so play it how you want to hear it. I tried Vinyl and did not see the big deal, and I grew up with records. I bought a tube amp , an Dynaco ST70, unrestored and loved it. Now I am a tube guy, as much as I love those Kenwoods they just can't keep up with the warmth you feel listening to a tube amp. The sound is far superior to my ears, they are the only test equipment I need or use. I now have tube amps running out my ears, I am a little compulsive, if one sounds this good what will another one sound like? My favorite is a Fisher 500C unrestored. It's my bedroom amp and gets the most listening time, It's like sex for the ears, Blues or classical but it loves everything. Now I know why people love Vinyl, it took tubes to show the way. Unlike a lot of people I just buy my stereos and play them, I build my own speakers but do have a few nice vintage speakers, Altec A7's, Bozak Symphony's,Wharfendale 90's. I had KHorns but sold them, it takes so little power to run these huge speakers, they love the tubes. I bought a Mcintosh SS preamp and a Mc 2105 because I heard so much about Mcintosh. I have not been impressed That Fisher 500C eats that Mc for lunch! Just some of my ramblings, I have always been a skeptic of the popular and have to see for myself, you will never regret going to tubes.
+ 1 on the Fisher 500C. I bought one at a yard sale for $1 and had BWS Consulting upgrade it, including putting in some Bendix aircraft quality tubes. My Fisher 500C drove Fulton Nuance floorstanders for many years. No complaints here.
The answer is easy. Small children, you are only home 2-3 hours some days, spend your time with your family. They grow up fast and then they are gone, get your sh!t together man.
I love my MC240 amp. It does sound better, especially playing piano music. It is paired with APT Holman preamp, and AR90 speakers. Paid $50 for the AR90s, had to replace the surrounds. I also have 3 sets of Adcom amps/preamps, with various speakers, (KLH, Pioneer) and they sound just fine to me. I pretty much leave them all on all the time, even when there is no music playing, and have not replaced any tubes in the Mac in the year or 2 that I have had it. Before I bought the Mac, the seller had it checked out by a specialist shop. I am content, but seem to have an endless curiosity about speakers. I bought some Klipsch KG4 speakers, wanted to try out those horns, liked them at first, but got weary of them pretty quickly, will sell them when I get around to it. Found out that I prefer the old KLH and even the old Pioneers, both pairs cost less than $100. I use cheap thick speaker wire. My source is a big external hard drive on my desk top computer. I download torrents from P2P sites, all HD (eg flac), never bother with MP3, so it's all free. I concede that vinyl might sound better, but I cannot be bothered trying to keep vinyl clean. I have a dog, and I live in the country, and there is lots of dust in my environment. Clean hard drive sounds better than dirty vinyl. Also I love the convenience of finding/selecting on the computer. Makes it easy to "stack" some music when I go the bed. Or choose a song that I am trying to learn, and be able to have it repeat without putting my guitar down. Or copy onto a cd to play in the car.
@jtweed
, thanks a bunch for starting this ’The ups and downs of tube vs. SS...’ discussion because I never would have found out or known anything about the Fisher 500C integrated all tube receiver.
@sunrayjack12and @geoffkait, ditto for bringing up in this discussion this little known jewel to me, the Fisher 500C tube integrated all tube receiver. After doing some research I found that this receiver is one of or if not the best value of integrated all tube receiver ever made!
I started my research here: STEVE HOFFMAN music forum - ’FISHER all-tube receivers from 1961-66 are cheap and sound wonderful!’ 2010.
I then stumbled across the Analog Engineering Associates website and found they restore customers Fisher integrated all tube receivers and sell restored Fisher integrated all tube receivers for as little as $1000. Please see here: http://aeaaudio.com/product/fisher-500c-gold-restoration-sold/.
Coincidently, today I will be picking up a SVS PB12 Plus/2 subwoofer with the 12.3 speaker upgrades specifically for its ability to be connected to vintage receivers.
I sure am glad I held on to my vintage Henry Kloss KLH Model Seventeen’s. I will be cleaning out my closet of all my 30 - 45 watt analog, solid state, and vintage Pioneer, Technics, Scott, and Cambridge receivers, turntables, speakers and whatever else I have around the house and selling those items just so I can one day buy me a Fisher integrated all tube receiver.
Tube are nice , "But" unreliable , The bias bad tubes go wrong all the time . I can not make year without a problem my amp is in the shop know. Got a year out of it 1st week there was problem I fix it my self after a year I had to send it out . They do sound nice . There are some very good SS out there "BIG BUCKS" Best bet intergrated amp with tube preamp easy to replace and the tubes are 10 bucks
@passet02 With all due respect that sounds like an issue with your amp itself not tubes. In my opinion a well built, point to point wired tube amp is harder to break and easier to fix and more prone to long term reliability. Sure there is a certainly level of interaction with your gear you don't get with SS but to me that's the fun part.
That won't last long if the filter capacitors don't get replaced. As they fail, they tend to take the power transformer with them. It can get pretty ugly as the transformer might leak nastiness when it gets really hot.
So get the caps replaced- and the amp will sound even better.
@atmasphere I was wondering about a tubed buffer stage between source and amp? If one was to go with either SS, or tubes, will it make a huge difference? Or, is it just a waste of money? jtweed
There is a good interview by New Record Day of Dan Wright of Modwright. NRD asks, "Tubes or solid state?" Dan answers something to the effect of, he’d prefer not to choose so that he could run a combination. His preference is tubes for the preamp and source gear, and quality solid state for the amplification of that tube signal in the cleanest way possible. Makes sense. I am on day three or so of my new-to-me Modwright KWA-150 SE, which replaced a Rogue Stereo 100, and the overall effect is at least as smooth as the Rogue - maybe smoother. "As long as there are tubes SOMEWHERE in the chain," Dan responded. "But if you make me choose one or the other, I would choose tubes." I run a tubed phono pre (Rogue Ares) and a Modwright (tubed) LS100 Pre, and the combination with the TOTL KWA-150SE is fantastic.
Ralph - really good points and the human hearing system is also hyper sensitive to time and phase...so getting part right only gets you so far IMO tube dac, tube preamp, hybrid high pass amp with just 5 parts in the signal path, time and phase accurate speakers ...ah...
xrayz sometimes..the FET front end tube buffer out SP-17 is I believe a good example of the sum being better than the bits ..... i own one so count me as biased tho.. a REF 5se it is not, but for the $$$ quite competent...
I was wondering about a tubed buffer stage between source and amp? If one was to go with either SS, or tubes, will it make a huge difference? Or, is it just a waste of money?
If you don't need the gain a tube buffer is a good idea. You will loose some voltage with a tube buffer (as it will be a cathode follower); to minimize that and to decrease distortion a mu follower is not a bad idea. The reduced output impedance will allow you to run longer cables and will reduce the sonic qualities of the cable.
We've optionally built buffer circuits in our preamps that have direct-coupled balanced outputs.
Anyone that says tubes is better or Solid State is better is full of baloney. I’ve own both though out the years and they both can sound great and horrible too. Every system will sound best with either a SS or Tube designed amp. So you just find what you like and enjoy. I have a bunch of EL34, 300b, 6550, and SS amps and I enjoy them all.
It isn't "baloney " If someone prefers tubes compared to solid state, just as it isn't baloney if the preference is for solid state. It isn't baloney if someone says that they enjoy tubes and solid state equally. Subjectivity allows all of these preferences to be perfectly valid (and expected).
There is no substitute for tubes. Solid state can do some things extremely well, but cannot beat tubes for harmonic structure integrity and seductive sound. Solid state is cardboard or paper mache. Tubes are liquid and human sounding.
"Solid state is cardboard or paper mache. Tubes are liquid and human sounding."
That was my (subjective) opinion as well until I heard the Pass XA25 a friend just purchased last week. Paired with his floor standing Omega speakers it sounds lush and gorgeous, even with his Pass SS preamp. It sounded even more captivating when we switched in my Aric Audio tube preamp but I thought it got a bit too syrupy for my taste. Really liked that XA25...
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