Hello Forum Members.
I’m new to this forum but have had the “audio-bug” for most of my life.
I’m very impressed with the experience and knowledge of the folks posting to this forum.
My system is mostly composed of Naim electronics and Thiel CS 3.6 speakers. I’ve found the #NaimNAP300 amp a very good match for these speakers. I recently got the DR upgrade for my Naim amp however, and there’s now an upper midrange harshness that wasn’t there previously. Maybe it just needs time to burn-in.
I’ve just added my system info to Audiogon’s Virtual systems postings and I’d appreciate any feedback.
Thanks.
Rosami
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Fellow Thielophiles,
I’m torn on my next step! My 21 year old CS 3.6s need a tweeter rebuild (I’ve had to do this at 7-year intervals and it’s that time again). I’m not sure if the speakers also may have a problem with the crossovers — they’re sounding raspy and pretty nasty lately.
Issue is I’ve only had Thiels (03a and then my current 3.6s) for the last 33 years and haven’t done any serious listening to other speakers! ! Now that my 3.6s need work - and given possibly having to do significant work if crossovers need attention - and only CSS still servicing them, I’ve actually been thinking about listening to some other speakers (sorry guys!). I’m curious if the “improvements” that the dealers, that Ive recently spoken to, say have occurred in the last 20+ years |
(Continued - sorry)
are real or just the normal sales talk.
Have speakers really improved that much in the last 20 years and is it maybe worth checking out other brands now that my 3.6s need work ?
Are there any objective Thiel owners among the Thielophiliacs that have done serious unbiased listening to other newer brands and can provide thoughts on PRAT, imaging, coherence, etc. of other brands vs. our beloved Thiels?
Thanks.
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Since there have been lots of posts about using Bryston amps with Thiel speakers, I wanted to relay my experience.
I owned Bryston 7B ST monoblocks years ago and while I thought the Brystons did a good job driving my CS3.6s, I eventually became less satisfied with the match-up. IMO, there was a lack of PRAT using the Bryston amps, and I strongly value this criterion in a system. I eventually made the decision to purchase a Naim NAP300 and have never looked back. While the Naim amp is "only" rated at 90/w/ch into 8 ohms (150 into 4), this amp has no problem driving my 3.6s to levels louder than I want to listen, and in my opinion it exerts much better control than the Bryston 7B STs did. I know there have been several new series of Bryston amps since the ST version, and I understand that each generation had improved - however - I currently have no plans to upgrade my Naim components.
Bottom line -- I just wanted to put in a good word for the Thiel-Naim match-up and throw it out there as a possibility for consideration if you're considering updating your amp. |
tomthiel & jafant:
I'm a relative newbie to forums (so please excuse any forum etiquette faux pas) but a long-time audiophile and Thiel enthusiast (33 years), first with 03a's and now with 3.6's (owned for 21 years).
I've read through many of the forum posts regarding the various Thiel crossover and component upgrades and am impressed with the technical knowledge and capabilities of many of the forum members. Unfortunately I'm not one of those members that possess the technical know-how to upgrade the crossovers in my 3.6s. (I have replaced the tweeters twice in 21 years and they're due again.) Since my 3.6s are in need of updating, I've been trying to decide what my next step should be -- whether l should audition other brands (which I'm reluctant to do) or figure out how to go about upgrading my 21-year-new CS 3.6s. My job would be a lot easier if I didn't think so highly of Thiel speakers!
jafant - you mentioned the availability of several pairs of 2.4s that you spotted, but I value the deep, tight, low-end capability (among many other traits) of my 3.6s (when driven with my Naim NAP300) and think I'd loose some of the low-end if I switched to the smaller 2.4s. The 2.7s look like they'd fit the bill but they're rarely available and I question the logic behind spending $10K on previously-owned speakers.. I spoke to Rob at CCS (very nice gentleman) and he indicated that he could rebuild my tweeters but that there is currently no upgrade for the 3.6 crossovers. I'm surprised by this since I understood that the 3.6s were among the best-selling Thiel speakers, so there are still many of them out there.
tomthiel - Is there a technical reason that there's no upgrade for the 3.6"s crossovers? How would one go about having 3.6 crossovers upgraded with out having to ship the speakers (which even Rob G. said was not a good idea) and not being able to do the work oneself? Is it worthwhile going through the effort and expense of this service and then just replacing parts rather than trying to upgrade the crossovers for better performance? Is replacing and updating the boards and components a job that a good local tech could do?
On a more general note -- I appreciate the positive, constructive and collaborative nature of the Thiel owners thread. This is a great group! Although based on my admittedly limited experience in reading of other audiophile forums, this group seems to be rather unique in that it's a forum for expressions of ideas among members, rather than the apparent battle of wits and unending string of derogatory comments that seem to pervade so many other A'gon forums. I hope this forum continues to be the go-to for Thiel owners!
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tomthiel -- Thank you. I'm happy to hear that you're working on the modifications for the 3.6s and then plan to offer completed crossover boards through CSS. That's great news for the many CS3.6 owners.
Would you possibly be able to provide a rough estimate of when you think the crossovers would be available? |
thielrules
PRAT is "pace-rhythm-and timing"; it refers to a system that is fast and detailed, with precise stop-start timing of notes. Naim (and other brands) believes PRAT is an essential element of a good system, and put more weight on those aspects rather than the qualities that most audiophiles generally strive for - such as imaging/depth/etc. IMO, Naim's better amps do a better job of providing PRAT than the Bryston 7B STs that I previously owned.
I did try both parallel and series connections when connecting the Brystons to the Thiels; one did sound better - but don't remember which - but the better connection still was inferior to my current setup. |
beetlemania -- It may be possible to use the Virtual Systems link in A'gon to post and update your progress; I'm not sure if there'd be any issues from a'gon though. |
jafant --
"Which brand(s) of cabling are you using in your set-up?"
Interconnects in Naim systems are pretty much limited to Naim cables due to the din connectors. I use their "standard" interconnects; there are higher-level Naim interconnects available (and custom Chord cables I think) but they're all very expensive individually and prohibitively expensive if I wanted to change all my interconnects. I've upgraded the standard Naim power cords and now use Shunyata Viper Zitrons and noticed significant improvement. My speaker cable is Naim NACA5; Naim specifies use of their speaker cable because Naim amps are designed to work with a specific load. I'd like to try different speaker cables and plan to give it a try, but only after I get my other system issues resolved. |
I've been listening to speakers recently to compare to my 21 year old CS3.6s -- it's a journey that I'll continue for awhile. Visiting a number of dealers, I've been amazed at all the Thiel bashing by some of these dealers - crazy claims - outright lies - claims that technology has come so far and that my speakers are obsolete - even personal criticism that I consider imaging and focus important. It's easy to see why high-end audio gets such a bad rap! Trust your ears and if you find a good dealer, support him! |
tomthiel
Do you really want to hear the crap from these dealers? It'll be painful listing their comments, but I'll try to be accurate.
Dealer 1) Imaging and focus are not real, but created. Thiel speakers basically do sound effects and sound big and flashy but are not accurate. That dealer also criticized me for mentioning imaging and focus, stating they're not real speaker attributes but rather sound effects created by Thiel speakers. This dealer stresses that imaging doesn't occur in concerts or real music. He also actually said that I was partially responsible for the failure of Naim's Ovator speakers because imaging wasn't a priority for them but "people like you" value those kinds fake qualities in a speaker. When I asked him what speakers he liked, he stated that he likes to listen in mono, prefers speakers that do not image and that are "in-you-face" since he likes to listen really loud. (not much comment necessary.)
Dealer 2) Thiel speakers are very poorly designed, especially the newer models with the coax mid/tweeter which were a "disaster." The old ones were a little better. Thiels use cheap drivers made overseas, are not accurate and are not time coherent - that's all just marketing. Their sound is a mess because Jim Thiel used very complex crossovers which had no way of being phase correct and they were not really first-order crossovers anyway.
Dealer 3) Thiel's crossovers have to be extremely complex to compensate for the poor drivers. If a speaker is so hard to drive correctly and so amp dependent, then it is a very poor design. Why would you design a speaker to go down under 2 ohms and drive amps into distortion? You're crazy wasting your money by having them repaired; there have been so many improvements in drivers and crossovers in 21 years that its time to get rid of them.
(None of those dealers were talking active or DSP.)
Interestingly I spoke to a couple previous Thiel dealers who praised the speakers and stated their regret regarding what happened to the company. I also found them to be superior dealers overall. (One of those did talk active and DSP and his setups did sound excellent IMO.)
All of the negative dealers made their comments after I'd stated to them that I've owned various Thiel speakers for the last 32 years. I guess they feel it's OK to spread this nonsense. High-end audio is a ruthless business!
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jonandfamily
Thanks for the kind words about my system in virtual systems!
My serial numbers are 5457/58 - Amberwood - still look immaculate but need some TLC (tweeters and maybe mids need rebuild). Next step is with CSS.
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prof — jafant
i tried to contact jserio (selling the black 3.7s) through US AudioMart to ask some questions but he didn’t reply. I question whether the speakers are still for sale.
One concern I have with the 3.7s (and also 2.7s) is that when I listened to the 3.7s -about 8 or so years ago in my room (a friend dropped them off to me to listen to) the midrange seemed somewhat thin sounding; with vocals it sounded like the body of the singers voice was not as full as in real life. I actually preferred the midrange of my 3.6s over the 3.7s (although I appreciated the improved detail, transparency and bottom end control of the 3.7s) so decided to stick with my 3.6s. But at the 21 year mark now with my 3.6s, I’ve been reconsidering the 3.7s, but my concern remains, especially since I’ve read that same comment in a couple of reviews and heard that same quality in a Bryson-based system (I have Naim electronics).
I’d think the cause is the new aluminum mid/tweeter design. For any 3.7 or 2.7 owners following this, any comments would be appreciated. |
thieliste
Interesting -- I had never even heard of
Aries Cerat Concero 65 monoblocs prior to reading your post. I checked out the website and their products do indeed look very interesting - but way beyond what I'd be willing to spend -- and I remain committed to my Naim electronics based on long experience with the brand.
I've been "out-of-the-market" for many years so this renewed bout of audiophialic disease is both exciting and frustrating! |
prof,
thanks for your comments on the CS3.7s. I've spend some time reading old posts on this forum and paid attention to your many past comments. I see your long history and experience with Thiel speakers and with the 2.7s vs. 3.7s - and your travails in trying to choose between the two models. I'm going through much the same process currently so am finding your experience helpful. I haven't read through all the thousands of comments on this very interesting forum (I have to sleep some time unfortunately); I stopped at the point that you were still trying to make a decision between these two models. Your most recent posts seem to suggest you gave up and bought both or have decided to keep both? When I make a decision, I will be sure to experiment more with speaker positioning and, based on many comments by members, not limit myself to the standard triangle and instead try more variations.
Best. |
jafant
Thanks for your feedback. I agree that I could have experimented more with positioning when I had the 3.7s for audition but was somewhat limited by time. I hope the issue is not a speaker-electronics mismatch because I don't have any plans to give up my Naim stuff. The match has been excellent with my 3.6s and - based on the specs - the 3.7s would seem to be a slightly easier load. While my Naim amp is not high-powered by Thiel standards, it is capable of driving low loads and providing high current so should be a good match with the 3.7s.
...so the journey continues... |
Listening to some speakers at a dealer (a former Thiel dealer) recently, I mentioned that I've owned Thiel 3.6s for 21 years and recently had my amps updated, upon which he replied that Thiels are real "amp killers." The dealer stated that since Thiel speakers are so difficult to drive, they "eat-up amps."
I've never heard that comment previously, so am wondering if there's any way a demanding speaker can have a negative affect on an amp's life.
Facts (rather than opinions) would be appreciated.
Thanks. |
jab
Thanks for the offer ;) but I'll stick with my Thiels - unless I decide to look for a pair of 2.4s/2.7s/3.7s. I still haven't made a decision because I haven't been able to get past the uncertainty of knowing how the newer models will sound with my current setup - which I see no reason for changing.
I hadn't listened to speakers for many years but have recently been visiting some dealers to listen to newer models and hear for myself how speakers have changed in 21 years. Turns out I think my 3.6s are better (in what I look for in a speaker anyway) than just about all of the new speakers I've listened to -- and that's in spite of all the sales gimmicks and "creative marketing" which unfortunately is still very much alive and well among too many high-end dealers.
What I've learned in my travels: there are tons of speakers out there, but very few that are really worthy of serious consideration, and-after price is factored in-Thiels were and still are unique in combining value and excellent performance. Other speakers just "don't sound right."
Who would've known that I'd have made such a good purchase decision over 30 years ago when I bought my first pair of 03a's.
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Yes - it’s kind of amazing given the age of these speakers. My only “want” with the 3.6s would be a tighter bottom end. I’ve had the 3.7s in my room and they had way better base-to-mid-base definition and control, however the vocal range sounded somewhat thin and lacked body. I’d guess the electronics/speaker combination was a big reason for what I heard with the 3.7s but I’m not willing to start changing my electronics. That was the main reason I stuck with my 3.6s rather than getting the 3.7s. I still think the 3.6s are terrific speakers and may do a little experimenting with speaker cables going forward. |
tomthiel
it seems that the 2.4 crossover upgrades are pretty well finalized now and that a lot was learned regarding upgraded components and the effects on how the speakers sound.
Since I own 3.6s, I’m interested in learning how much of the info gained from the 2.4 upgrades will be able to be applied to a 3,6 upgrade. Will it be necessary to start from scratch in designing the 3.6 crossover upgrades, and is it realistic to hope to be able to actually buy a completed crossover package from Rob G. In the near future?
Thanks!
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Thanks Tom.
i anxiously look forward to hearing more from you regarding the 3.6 crossover upgrade - and results of the Thiel bankruptcy proceedings and wish you a good outcome.
An additional question for you or one of the very knowledgeable techies in our group: if I get my drivers (tweeters/mids) rebuilt and then learn that there’s an issue with the crossovers (bad cap or whatever) that needs to be addressed, is it possible that a crossover problem could damage the newly rebuilt drivers?
Thanks. This group is the best!
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Thanks guys. This info is helpful and will guide my decisions regarding next steps to take with my 3.6s. Think I have a lot to discuss with Rob G. - and some Google searches to do re bankruptcies |
