While some might enjoy these Thiels with tube amps, ultimately I don't believe tubes are the ideal match:
Showing 50 responses by unsound
^Interesting, your impressions of the MI 2's vs. the MI 3's were so different than mine. I found the MI 3's to negate the emphasis of the brightness region (mid to lower treble), centering the sonic midrange, and though appearing contradictory; making the bass both tighter and richer . Perhaps it's due to different model Thiel's, with different amps, in different rooms through different ears. :-) |
Maplegrovemusic, ones room and listening position will ultimately determine speaker positioning. The Thiels are very accurate off axis to begin with, and straight ahead positioning can help provide a wide soundstage as well as negate some brightness. More importantly to attain driver integration and wave form fidelity; one should sit at least 8' from Thiels. |
dar57, Most rooms vary enough, that there are no hard rules. My room is very similar to yours, though I do have a rather high ceiling. I prefer the long wall placement when it can work. I have my Thiel's backs out 3' from the wall behind them, 10' apart center to center, >5' from speaker cabinet wall to side wall, with my listening position close up against the opposing wall with a large piece of thick foam with thick fabric covering, speakers are about 9' from the listening position firing straight ahead, without toe in. Of course one could use other approaches, i.e., rule of thirds, etc.. With Thiels do try to keep 8'-12' from listening position to speaker. Keeping the entertainment center cabinet well away from the speakers is a very good idea! |
The bottom placement of the speaker terminals might be nuisance when auditioning cables, but once one's decided upon their favorite cables, I find their unobtrusive appearance and the hidden from children, pets, etc. a bonus. I would think again about raising the speakers. BTW, why travel to get cables when cables can come to you; |
oblgny, At the risk of appearing petty, the 3.5's come with an external equalizer or bass booster not a cross-over. Though the smooth impedance rise with it's insertion mitigates its total demand on amplifiers, it does put added demands on amplifiers none the less. The point being, extra power can be quite beneficial with these particular speakers. It appears as though you might be able to use the Primare i22 with the 3.5's if you aren't using the tape loop for anything else. Though it was some time ago, and the state of Class D amps might have progressed since then, Jim Thiel once told me that Class D amps were only suitable for subwoofers, and not competitive with traditional amps further up the frequency range. If you like to try different gear with your Thiel 3.5's, I suggest you consider some iron fists in a velvet glove old school high out |
I suppose the MF200 would sort of qualify. I'm a fan of c-j ss. I ran an MF 80 with CS 2's (Thiel's easiest load) when I had a smaller room years ago. The c-j's don't quite double down the same way, and the bass isn't quite as tight. A small bit of c-j warmth coloration seeps through, but that isn't exactly unwelcome with these older Thiels. The c-j ss amps match very nicely with most tube pres as well. C-j's own ss pres are quite nice too. BTW, I found the Goertz Alpha-Core MI series cables to work beautifully with c-j and Thiel. I keep an eye on Class D, though I haven't heard all the latest. Conceptually I love the idea, and while there are differences amongst them, I find the treble curious on all of them. Is it because I'm not used to such a clean presentation, or are they lacking in harmonic extension? I'm not really sure. What little there is of published measurements are not especially encouraging. I hope I can look forward to your sharing your impressions of them, especially with the 3.5's! |
^Not at all surprised that the AR pre imparts less warmth than the c-j pre. I too am a Pass fan. Perhaps you might enjoy Pass's previous products: Threshold. Which were reputed to be used by Jim Thiel when developing these earlier Thiels (& Pass used Thiels amongst others then too). Good examples should be considerably less expensive than more recent Pass Labs. Keep in mind that these older amps might need some refreshing: caps, bias, etc.. |
oblgny, I've heard the other arguments, but I steadfastly believe that "backasswards" is exactly how you should build a system! Starting with knowing how much of the contents of the billfold in your back pocket your willing to depart with, to the listening position in your room (where the sum everything before comes together), and the room (don't forget the treatment) is so important, then to speakers (the most colored of components, so make sure that those colorizations are the least objectionable possible) that will vary more in rooms more so than the vast majority of reasonably compatible electronics ever will, to the amplification needed to drive those speakers in that room, then keep going back to the source(s), then to the rack, finally fine tune with cables. If you like Pass Labs, there's a good chance you'll like Threshold, some even prefer the Thresholds. |
Curious that they list the doubling down 4 Ohm rating of their A60 amp (250/500 both channels driven) but not their A34.2. If it's not specified, I'd be hesitant to assume anything. Unless the amp has lots of power to spare, if it doesn't double down, it will compromise frequency linearity with most dynamic speakers such as your Thiels. |
The 3.5's and 3.6's used different drivers, similar but different cross-overs. The 3.5's used bass eq/boosted sealed boxes, and with the 3.6's a passive radiator. IMHO, the 3.5's are more coherent, have deeper bass response, and are easier to amplify. The 3.6's are more refined and suave in the mid to upper frequencies, and are capable of more dynamic range. The amplification requirements of both requires careful consideration, especially for the 3.6's. With that said, most seem to prefer the 3.6's and I seem to be I the minority of preferring the 3.5's. |
Oblgny, I'd suggest trying the 40 Hz setting on Thiel's eq and using the sub below that point. This might increase the dynamic range, and "ease". Though the dynamic range of the bass on the 3.5's isn't it's strongest point, overall the Thiel 3.5's stereo bass w/ eq provides better bass than many subs. So much of this depends on your amp and especially your room. |
^If I may; it's not a typical eq. It's really a bass only booster. By compensating for the natural bass roll off of the 10' woofers in a relatively modest sized sealed box cabinet Jim Thiel (and others including B&W, KEF ,etc.) was able to make a truly full range speaker with a high WAF. The disadvantage of this approach is a bit more cabling in the loop, and more demands on the woofers and amplifier (more on this later), and of course the rightly or wrongly audiophile thought of anathema of putting more electronics in the path. The advantage is of course true full range bass (!) in a much less expensive to make (well) and easier to sell smaller cabinet. Some have suggested less energy storage, and tighter response from the smaller woofers than would otherwise be necessary as a plus. As for the extra amplifier demands, yes it's true, but in the case of the Theil 3.5's it's not quite as challenging as it might first appear. The 3.5's are spec'd as 4 Ohm nominal, 4 Ohm minimum, and they do have a very smooth steady impedance, but at 70 Hz, the eq gradually starts to put more and more demands on the amplifier to compensate for that typical sealed box roll off, but just as that happens the impedance plot starts to increase and ergo so does the sensitivity. See, quite brilliant. Jim put one small switch on the eq to access bass response to either 40 Hz or 20 Hz to adapt to different sized rooms or musical demands. By musical demands I mean bass volume. Some music such a much popular music doesn't have much below 40 Hz but is typically played very loud in that region, where as other music such as much classical music might go deeper but not necessarily as loud there. The 3.5's can play deep bass quite loudly in typical rooms, but truth be told, one can only bend the laws of physics so far; very loud, very deep bass still needs a much bigger and much more expensive speaker system. As Jim Thiel once told me, unfortunately the eq raised a red flag to many audiophiles with preconceived prejudices. One might imagine that with today's digital room correction eq's this strategy might return, as one could not only dial in accurate bass to anechoic standards, but also to customers individual rooms in the very frequency range most likely to be problematic. |
Oblgny, the 2.4's will be smoother, more refined in the upper midrange/treble, the 3.5's are more coherent throughout, have deeper bass and is much easier to drive. http://www.stereophile.com/content/thiel-cs24-loudspeaker-measurements#koJxkckLClGEdits.97 Many, if not most would choose the 2.4's, I much prefer the sealed box 3.5's. |
oblgny, The spikes for the 3.5's are intended to couple the speakers to the floor where appropriate(!). These early Thiels were provided with two sets of spikes, one set was blunt tipped for direct contact with hard, firm flooring and the other set was pointed in order to pierce through carpeting to make contact with firm flooring. The spikes when inserted into the speaker bases hardly protruded, and not intended to be used just to elevate the speakers. In fact, Thiel suggested not using them when the speakers would be placed on flooring that might vibrate with such coupling. Thiel used to offer the replacement spikes for a very nominal fee. |
robinbarbour, While that would seem to make sense, I can't confirm or deny that to be true. Please keep in mind that while up until very recently one could find many attributes that Thiel speakers shared, Jim Thiel got there through various means. With the speakers under consideration, the 3.5's and 6's used eq'd sealed boxes or passive radiators, different box volumes, and perhaps most importantly different drivers and at different price points. |
I had the opportunity to speak with him a few times, and he was always a patient, perfect gentleman. I too am enamored with the 3.5's, IMHO all things considered, it might have been his best product. It takes much more money to get somewhat better performance. Being the absolute bargains they were when new, and even more so now on the used market, I fear that some don't realize that for them to be all they can be, they need to be fed with appropriate gear that could very well exceed the current cost of these speakers. If your ever feeling generous about wine recommendations, please share! Though they're usually a bit out of my budget for regular consumption, amongst others, I have a particular fondness for both red and white Burgundies, and late harvest Rieslings.:-) |
Of course, but: http://www.stereophile.com/content/thiel-cs35-loudspeaker-specifications#6mcsq3ICT5hzkUZZ.97 http://www.stereophile.com/content/thiel-cs5-loudspeaker-specifications-0#y99hwBpthoEYX6iw.97 Note the frequency response: CS 3.5's +/- 2 dB CS 5's +/- 1dB Most speakers are specified +/- 3 dB I'm confident that with that extra longitude :-), both would measure flat to 20 Hz. |
robinbarbour, Close, but not quite: http://www.stereophile.com/content/thiel-cs72-loudspeaker-specifications#zxQKTPbzDr4CaVoc.97 Keep in mind that the 3.5's and the 5's did with it sealed boxes too. |
The 3.5 midranges with their paper surrounds occasionally need to be rebuilt. I've had both of my pair rebuilt by Thiel once gratis 10 years after the warranty ran out, only had to pay for shipping there. I sure miss Shari Graham and the non pareil Thiel customer service. Not bad for 25 year old speakers. |
saffron_boots: note the last sentence in paragraph 11: http://www.stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/690thiel/index.html#OCgcjcgiVx3FrhzX.97 though not active, on point to some degree never the less: https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/thiel-cs5-modifications |
richardp01, It is highly (!!!) unlikely that the domes collapsed from use, more likely from careless cleaning or incidental contact. Small dimples on the speaker driver domes are often inconsequential. The midrange surround tear can be tricky, as it is made of paper. It might be best to have it professionally repaired. I'd suggest Thiel https://www.thielaudio.com/parts-services-department/ or Miller Sound http://millersound.net/. I recommend both highly, and if it were up to me, I'd let price decide. As for the collapsed domes, I suggest you try to find or make cardboard tubes/cones with one opening of the same size or just slightly larger than the speaker driver dome under consideration. Gently place the appropriately sized tube/cone opening over the offending opening, and your mouth over the other end, then gently suck. Don't use a vacuum cleaner as it might be too powerful and detach the voice coil. Should you need to remove the speaker drivers, I suggest that before starting you have a small adjustable height table or step stool, a small cup, appropriate equipment for desoldering/ soldering including high quality silver solder (Thiel used to provide a small length of this, but I'm not sure if they still do) , an appropriately sized non-magnetic screwdriver, writeable tape, a marker, appropriately sized boxes and packing material for the speaker drivers. First cut two pieces of tape into 2" lengths for each driver to be removed. Then mark one piece of tape with a "+" and the other with a "-" for each pair of tape pieces. If you don't have a non-magnetic screwdriver, proceed with care. Place the height adjustable table/step stool top right next to the height of the driver to be removed; warning the speaker driver leads might be quite short. Put the screwdriver, tape pieces and small cup on said table/stool.The speaker driver magnets are quite powerful and can attract and drag a typical screwdriver with such force that can cause speaker driver cone tears. When using a typical screwdriver, place the non-screwing hand over the speaker driver cone without pressing down, then carefully place the typical screwdriver between thumb and index finger of the non- screwing hand before removing the first screw. Remove screws from speaker drivers/ speaker baffle, then place screws in the small cup. Desolder one lead from the back of the speaker driver, then place speaker driver on table/stool. On the back of the speaker driver there will probably be a marking denoting "+" or "-"; place the previously appropriately marked "+" or "-" piece of tape on the speaker lead that has just been removed. Repeat with the other speaker lead and put the other appropriately and obviously differently marked piece of tape on the other lead. Repeat as necessary. This will be quite helpful when it comes time to reinstall the speaker drivers. The 3.5's midrange drivers have a reputation for requiring "maintenance". Though they would appear to be of generic origin, Jim Thiel had these otherwise off the shelf drivers customized for his use in this particular line of speakers. The 3.5's haven't been made in decades. Should you replace any of them, you might want to keep any them around, no matter how damaged they appear for potential "rebuilds" should the need arise. Though perhaps a bit more risky, yet perhaps better value laden; another approach might be to buy another 3.5(s), using the parts you need and either keeping the remaining parts for future use or parting out the remaining parts for resale. FWIW, I might be interested in some of those parts for future considerations. Good luck, let us know how it turns out. |
dcockrum, I agree, and am also grateful that Rob is still available to offer his appreciated service. Still, $400 seems a tad rich for a rebuilt driver that might have cost about that much new. What drives that cost; time, materials? I would have guessed that Thiel could afford to do it for about half that. Thiel didn't just have the best customer service in audio back when Shari, Lana and Gary were there, but the best customer service I've ever had from any company of any kind. I guess they just spoiled me. |